The SolAARium: Discuss the craft of writing - Alphabetical Index in the 1st Post

[Chac1]

Looking to tie up a few loose ends and maybe share a few more images as this good discussion continues.

A quick Google search on copyright laws for different countries provides a cat's breakfast of varying lengths. A real land mine.

This is NOT the future we want. No doubt there will have to be some international convention on this eventually.

Of course, you could have referenced George Harrison's My Sweet Lord for another can of worms .

I thought about that given the musical selections of the @Director . That's an excellent example because this was apparently a melody and strong structure that the judge said was "unintentionally copied" but nevertheless the entire song follows the structure of Ronnie Mack's "He's So Fine." So that's one of those examples of lifting too much.

I'd give you five thumbs-up if I could. Thank you very much!

Collier is one of those 'once in a lifetime' artists. It says something that each of his albums have won a Grammy - and Quincy Jones asked to be his agent.
Even more rarely, he has an incredible grasp of harmonies (trust me, some of the things he conceptualizes are just not humanly possible) and manages to be accessible and produce popular music.

Thanks for sharing the Collier cuts. Brightened the day. Thanks for the compliments too.

That image was made with Leonardo, which I selected on your recommendation. The Prompt was "King Leopold I staring happily at a waffle" but I do not recall the exact combination of "elements" that resulted in that image. I don't intend on using it quite yet, but certainly it has a lot of potential. I think I'm going to slowly implement it when existing art is unsuitable, and label it as AI-generated. On non-commercial work, I'm thinking it's a Romans 14:23 situation. If it pricks your conscience, you should not do it, but if you feel free to do so, do so!

Always good to have a compass for these ethical questions.

Just just as a bit of fun, I decided to plug your prompt into Leonardo and added only a few extra words. Of course, I don't know the settings you used, @MidKnightDreary but this was the best of the bunch that I produced. (Shows you the wide variety of what can be created with the same words.)

​

Also, because we were discussing outputs from Leonardo, I thought I should share one of my attempts at my palace guard image so folks can compare them too. This was the best of the lot. (Often when creating you are producing batches of 2, 3 or 4 images so you can pick the one you like best.)

​

Just so folks can make their own comparisons... I never tried this experiment with Bing as I found multiple options with ImageFX.

 

[coz1]

That's an excellent example because this was apparently a melody and strong structure that the judge said was "unintentionally copied" but nevertheless the entire song follows the structure of Ronnie Mack's "He's So Fine." So that's one of those examples of lifting too much.

One of the great ironies of this case was that Phil Spector was in part the producer of the album from which My Sweet Lord comes from (All Things Must Pass) and though he was not the producer of The Chiffons, he certainly would have been familiar with the song and sound given his own background producing 60's girl groups. George always said it was unintentional but as said, he lost that argument ultimately.

On the larger topic of AI produced graphics/art, I should say @Chac1 that while a great topic for this thread, the post and discussion likely deserved/deserves its own thread. Regardless of where it falls, an excellent look at the subject and I would be interested in playing around with some of these programs if they did not demand that I sign up for yet one more site (I'll be happy if I never have another new password for the rest of my life. )

However, it does beg perhaps a larger question re: AI - Is anyone or has anyone used AI writing programs in their AAR work or personal work? I myself have never done so, but I am of the notion that many are in the real world outside of these walls. I know that there are prompting programs (Grammerly being one, I believe) that assist in editing or even first blush writing, but I understand AI writing programs can write the whole thing for you (though from what I have heard, it still requires the "writer" to go through and clean up some irregular parts.)

I am curious if anyone considers this a good thing or is it "cheating" so to speak?

 

[Chac1]

Thanks, @Lord Durham for the invitation to post this. I will now think about a more general post for the forum that may be more inviting for folks to show off and share their work, as @coz1 suggests. Of course, others are certainly welcome to comment here, but as this is more of an add on to writing and the SolAARium is primarily about writing, I completely understand the logic of moving onward.

On the larger topic of AI produced graphics/art, I should say @Chac1 that while a great topic for this thread, the post and discussion likely deserved/deserves its own thread. Regardless of where it falls, an excellent look at the subject and I would be interested in playing around with some of these programs if they did not demand that I sign up for yet one more site (I'll be happy if I never have another new password for the rest of my life. )

Well, I have bad news there. They will all want you to sign up and start an account, free or not. However, some will let you use your Google account to sign in: Leonardo and ImageFX work that way. Yes, the proliferation of the need for passwords and two factor authentication created by the criminals stealing data is part of the modern world I would rather be without too.

However, it does beg perhaps a larger question re: AI - Is anyone or has anyone used AI writing programs in their AAR work or personal work? I myself have never done so, but I am of the notion that many are in the real world outside of these walls. I know that there are prompting programs (Grammerly being one, I believe) that assist in editing or even first blush writing, but I understand AI writing programs can write the whole thing for you (though from what I have heard, it still requires the "writer" to go through and clean up some irregular parts.)

I am curious if anyone considers this a good thing or is it "cheating" so to speak?

Well, I did once ask one of the programs to help me understand the basics of Norse poetry. Then I proceeded to have an intense argument with the program about how many syllables were actually in a word. That told me they would be useless to help me in any way in their current state. I have found the programs dangerously littered with misinformation, just like the rest of the internet. I suppose that is the garbage in, garbage out principle at work.

I was so alarmed by what I found that I have mostly stopped consulting them, so perhaps they have improved. I was experimenting a lot with them last summer and early fall. But you hear about students passing off essays and papers at the university level written by these programs so who knows?

If I recall, many months ago, an AAR won a weekly award and the writer/editor revealed that it was mostly made with AI. I will have to search for that.

As someone who uses AI for art, I don't think I can condemn this, but I do think folks should be transparent about process.

 

[Rensslaer]

Thank you @Chac1 for this dissertation!

It's really a fascinating topic. I am VERY skeptical of AI (as we should all be) but using AI for artwork has less ethical quandaries than has the more general subject.

I haven't made my way through all the comments - popular discussions always leave me catching up. But I wanted to contribute one minor thought.

It has been said (by me - possibly by others) that an AI thief is the most effective because he has six fingers on each hand.

(A Finnish woman captured by the Danes during a raid.)​

Always check your images for weird AI artifacts. I've heard that 6-fingered hands are actually quite common in AI images, such that it's actually a trademark of sorts

@Nikolai also has a 5-legged horse in one of his AARs.

My wife was talking this morning about how a certain Walmart is removing its self checkout lanes, presumably because of theft. But her comment was "Good, you shouldn't have taken away the jobs of all those checkers in the first place."

With AI the worry I think is how much business these huge corporations are in taking away from small-time artisans. Much like the big box stores putting small businesses out of business through competition. If people want to make a living off their art talents are they squeezed out by AI?

I'm not saying we shouldn't use AI for art. I'm not even saying I won't myself. I might experiment some. But my wife also points out that the more we use AI for our jobs, the more we're training the AI to DO our jobs, and might we all be putting ourselves out of work?

This is an important question here because it's not just AI images that are given for "free". AI is increasingly producing fiction books and stories that are sopped up by a witless public as entertaining literature.

Are we writers as accepting of that trend?

Rensslaer

 

[Lord Durham]

On the larger topic of AI produced graphics/art, I should say @Chac1 that while a great topic for this thread, the post and discussion likely deserved/deserves its own thread. Regardless of where it falls, an excellent look at the subject and I would be interested in playing around with some of these programs if they did not demand that I sign up for yet one more site (I'll be happy if I never have another new password for the rest of my life. )

It was at my suggestion that @Chac1 write a piece on AI art as a topic for the SolAARium. With the proliferation of AI art and its use in AARland, I saw the SolAARium as the perfect place for the topic and any discussion it generates. After all, save for an attempt by @Rensslaer back in January of this year to kickstart this initiative, the SolAARium had lain dormant for 7 years, that is until I poked my head back in . Personally, I'm not sure if a separate thread for AI generated art is a good idea.

 

[Rensslaer]

Incidentally I don't mean to accuse anyone of theft for using AI images. The six-fingered thief thing was just a joke, not a metaphor. I didn't Even mean to add to the ethical discussion but then it came to mind so I continued.

Rensslaer

 

[Chac1]

Thanks for catching that six-fingered Viking @Rensslaer !

Always check your images for weird AI artifacts. I've heard that 6-fingered hands are actually quite common in AI images, such that it's actually a trademark of sorts

@Nikolai also has a 5-legged horse in one of his AARs.

I had not checked that one closely because I always saw it as a discard, and now I know why! (However, a good digital editor should be able to get rid of that extra finger. I can't tell you how many fingers I have removed in otherwise good images.)

Yes, I believe I have a link to the 5 or 6-legged and two-headed horse used by @Nikolai in my original post/dissertation.

This is an important question here because it's not just AI images that are given for "free". AI is increasingly producing fiction books and stories that are sopped up by a witless public as entertaining literature.

Are we writers as accepting of that trend?

Definitely something to be wary about. Again, I think there should be some transparency in labeling and process. Just back-reading this morning about the winner of a major Japanese book prize who now says she used AI to write parts of her award-winning manuscript.

I still can't find the folks who said they wrote their AAR using AI. Did I dream that?

Personally, I'm not sure if a separate thread for AI generated art is a good idea.

Okay, didn't mean to start this debate. I will hold off on any additional posts on this topic. Besides, if I read the comments from @Macavity116 correctly, there's going to be an attempt to attack the SolAARium by his rogue characters.

 

[Chac1]

One postscript here because it was needling me.

Apparently, @David of Miami is open about his use of Chat GPT, one of the more popular AI programs, in the process of constructing his AAR. That AAR, King of Kings, the story of Tehrani Persia won a Weekly Showcase back in December and @El Pip mentioned it may be the first AAR here to win an award and be open about its use of AI.

 

[coz1]

My wife was talking this morning about how a certain Walmart is removing its self checkout lanes, presumably because of theft. But her comment was "Good, you shouldn't have taken away the jobs of all those checkers in the first place."

I listen to a sports talk radio station and they say all the time..."down the hall." They have a political station also. A lot of words I might say about this, but it's best left to OT where anyone can say anything (I suppose.)

It was at my suggestion that @Chac1 write a piece on AI art as a topic for the SolAARium. With the proliferation of AI art and its use in AARland, I saw the SolAARium as the perfect place for the topic and any discussion it generates. After all, save for an attempt by @Rensslaer back in January of this year to kickstart this initiative, the SolAARium had lain dormant for 7 years, that is until I poked my head back in . Personally, I'm not sure if a separate thread for AI generated art is a good idea.

It's not about the thread, but the topic. I think it is one that touches all of us.

To wit:

Incidentally I don't mean to accuse anyone of theft for using AI images. The six-fingered thief thing was just a joke, not a metaphor. I didn't Even mean to add to the ethical discussion but then it came to mind so I continued.

Definitely something to be wary about. Again, I think there should be some transparency in labeling and process. Just back-reading this morning about the winner of a major Japanese book prize who now says she used AI to write parts of her award-winning manuscript.

Thus my question.

 

[Chac1]

Thus my question.

To be fair to the book prize winner, she too was transparent about her use of AI within the book, and apparently used her conversations with AI as realistic interactions within the book which also deals with artificial intelligence.

 

[Rensslaer]

And, off on the tangent that I suggested, there are different qualities of writing being produced today. We have a good range of talents and quality here in AARLand, including many truly professional writers (not just those of us who write outside - I feel like a good many of the writers here could compete well in the regular marketplace).

Since I got into publishing my own novel, and since marketing such novels is often done in groups of other authors, I've come to realize there are a great many things published by real self publishing authors today that are of very low quality. Some of the AI written stuff might not be easily recognized because it might be better quality than some of the "real" authors' work.

Rensslaer

 

[Lord Durham]

It's not about the thread, but the topic. I think it is one that touches all of us.

Hence why the SolAARium is the perfect place for it. Remember, the original topic was AI Art. I think we've gone off on a tangent here.

IF a separate thread was warranted, then I would suggest something along the line of AI Art Generation for Dummies. A class on what programs are best, how to use them, and so on. People could post their own generated art, but it should include notes on the program used, the prompts used and the results versus what they may have been going for. The thread would need a purpose other than just posting AI pics for he hell of it.

 

[coz1]

Hence why the SolAARium is the perfect place for it. Remember, the original topic was AI Art. I think we've gone off on a tangent here.

Thought to move the conversation forward. Whether this thread or no. Either way, it is fascinating and I believe others could/might learn from it. My two ducats.

 

[Nikolai]

Always check your images for weird AI artifacts. I've heard that 6-fingered hands are actually quite common in AI images, such that it's actually a trademark of sorts

@Nikolai also has a 5-legged horse in one of his AARs.

I don't see the problem with AI art in AARs, if that is what people think? I find the artifacts unproblematic tbh. My horse picture showed what I wanted, five legs or no.

 

[Director]

My wife was talking this morning about how a certain Walmart is removing its self checkout lanes, presumably because of theft. But her comment was "Good, you shouldn't have taken away the jobs of all those checkers in the first place."

Yeah, I used to say the same thing. In fact, I told off one senior company manager by asking him if customers would have to stock groceries the next time I came in.

The fact that Wal-Mart customers who used self-checkout were routinely accused of shoplifting and had police sent to arrest them, even when there was no actual evidence they had done so other than camera footage showing an obscured view of the bag, was a fistful of nails hammered into the coffin. But it does occur to me that there isn't a line of people waiting to take those checking jobs when the wage is minimum.

I interviewed for a tech job at the 'resort up the road' and was quoted $16-18 per hour. The McDonalds was hiring at $15 per hour. My comment to the resort people was that they seemed to want only people who couldn't get hired at McDonalds...

Once upon a time a Ford Motor executive showed off a robot to the UAW official. "See, it can do anything a human can do!" the executive exclaimed.
"Except buy a Ford car," was the dry response.



I'd support a 'how to' series on AI art. I think we should all look down the road at some consequences before we run into them.

I thought about the implications of using of AI in other media. There have been computer programs that write music 'in the style of Bach' and other composers, and while they may not produce great music (and I suspect they need some careful editing, too) the result can sound amazingly like the original composer. I'm not surprised that AI can write or at least string words together... but at this stage I think a human is required as a collaborator/editor if you want to use the output.

In other words, in art, music and literature the human has moved up the hierarchy from writer to co-writer/editor. Whether that's an improvement or not depends on your feelings about editing, I suppose. Unfortunately, I think one develops editing skills in part by writing, and writing may now be as hard to teach to students as math in an age of calculators.

 

[coz1]

I thought about the implications of using of AI in other media. There have been computer programs that write music 'in the style of Bach' and other composers, and while they may not produce great music (and I suspect they need some careful editing, too) the result can sound amazingly like the original composer. I'm not surprised that AI can write or at least string words together... but at this stage I think a human is required as a collaborator/editor if you want to use the output.

Part why I thought about the writing aspects of AI. Much less than Bach, but a radio show I listen to used AI to produce a Taylor Swift diss song towards them and it sounded astoundingly like the real thing. Now, that may say much about the current form of popularly produced music these days but it was too close for comfort (a TV show, by the way, that AI could have never produced. )

 

[jak7139]

A very interesting and informative piece @Chac1! Well done! And it's given way to a very lively discussion which is always nice to see.

For me, using AI in art, music, or writing is fine if (like in AARland) it is used for fun and not for profit. The moment money is involved, it becomes a much hazier issue. Especially since for many AI sites, the bots are trained off of others' work.

In order for that to feel less unethical, you'd have to get the original creator's permission to use their work. That's fine on a case-by-case basis, but this is an impossible task when you have countless generations by billions of users daily. There's no way to sort through them all and determine which generations fall more onto one side of the line or the other.

Once upon a time a Ford Motor executive showed off a robot to the UAW official. "See, it can do anything a human can do!" the executive exclaimed.
"Except buy a Ford car," was the dry response.

This is part of my issue with saying that AI/technology will replace humans. If humans become so obsolete they can't get jobs, then we'll have no money to buy these companies' products. Of course, technology has replaced many jobs over the past century. But many new jobs have also been created at the same time. It's not so much AI replacing humans as it is AI forcing us into other fields.

 

[El Pip]

I will echo the appreciation for an informative piece, excellent work @Chac1. I would also offer an alternative perspective, starting perhaps from times when the words don't come first. If you are using AI then you are not hunting around looking for photos, which is a valuable time saver or perhaps even an idea saver as you want an image of something that never existed. But it means you miss out on unexpected finds, like this;

If an AI generated that you would suspect an artefact, because it looks ridiculous. But it was a real Soviet ship with an absolutely crazy story behind it (it involves perpetual motion machines and, I'm not making this up, 'illicit helicopter design'). For me at least images like that prompt investigation and the results eventually find their way into the AAR, if i just generated the images I would miss out on that.

That said all the various image generators remain quite bad at 'technical' things like aircraft and ships, particularly details likes propellers on aircraft. I suspect it is a similar issue to the problems with hands/fingers - I don't believe any of the examples posted got them quite right. When they finally get that right I might find it harder to resist the temptation to take the shortcut.

 

[Chac1]

Thanks for the compliments and advice @El Pip & @jak7139 . Although it wasn't stated, @El Pip I do continue to look for images available on the web, both for use if possible in various projects and sometimes as reference images for the AI art generation. Like you, I do find some intriguing images, but maybe not as intriguing as that Soviet vessel!

I agree AI hasn't caught up completely yet, but still produces amazing fakes. (There are a few Soviet leaders that might have appreciated that. And here we are back to some of the scarier parts of the technology.)

Have to agree with all the points @jak7139 made regarding the impact on employment and its use here versus using it for profit.

One final note, as hashed out earlier, you can now find a post that goes into some depth about image creation elsewhere on the forum, not that we can't continue this discussion here, especially about some of these deeper themes.

 

[Kazanov]

I got late to this discussion, but when I discovered it I asked wife (graphic designer and all that) about his view on the ethics of using AI for AARs and RP.

She said something like: "we copy each others work all the time, the thing is HOW you use the tools at your disposal, no ethics involved, just do it and have fun".

After that I tried to generate images with Da Vinci and discovered that I suck at that and I also suck at using the Adode suit, I also suck at drawing, 10/10 experience.

For writing purposes, I've made experiments using ChatGPT to talk with people from Arab countries, and it works better than when using English. I still struggle with the idea of using it for role-playing purposes. I often translate ideas into English, as it seems to convey them better than my brain does when transitioning from Spanish to English. I learn new words this way, Chat gpt is a pretentious bot.