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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #34 - Canals & Monuments

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Good evening and welcome to this week’s Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s topic is Canals & Monuments, unique buildings with special inputs, outputs, and effects.

The Vatican City is the seat of the Catholic Church and a great asset to the Papal States in Victoria 3. As Europe developed and industrialized, the power of religious authority in national politics declined steeply but never lost its relevance. Can you change the course of history and renew the temporal power of the Pope?
DD34 01.png

Monuments are unique buildings only available in specific states, each with its own 3D model on the map. They make use of some of the more interesting aspects of the production methods system; just as buildings can output Goods, they can also output both national and local modifiers, Capacities, and effects on the pops working there. The Vatican City for instance outputs the Influence capacity as well as greatly increasing the political strength of the Devout Interest Group. Meanwhile the White House adds a multiplier to your national Bureaucracy output as well as increasing the amount of political strength Pops gain from votes. Not all Monuments are present at the start date. Some, like the Eiffel Tower, must be constructed, and Monuments are significantly more costly and time-consuming to construct than standard buildings. Monuments are subsidized by government funding, so if you decide that a Monument is unaffordable or that you aren’t interested in its effects (for instance if you as communist Italy no longer want to Church to wield so much power) you can simply defund them. On release we intend to have eleven different Monuments in total.

The Panama Canal links the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Finally completed in 1914 after decades of planning and construction, ships no longer had to take the long and treacherous route around South America to travel between the East and West. Yes, we can see the trees and houses in the Canal - we’ll fix it!
DD34 02.png

Like Monuments, Canals are unique buildings with a special set of inputs and outputs. But the true allure of constructing a Canal is that it allows you to create new connections between sea nodes, allowing ships to travel through the isthmuses of Panama and Suez. This significantly reduces the Convoy costs for trading and supplying armies across vast ocean distances, as well as your vulnerability to unscrupulous rivals trying to disrupt your supply lines.

We use the Journal Entry system to track the progress of your canal survey. Behind the scenes a variable is increased every month until the goal is reached, which triggers the completion event. The Journal Entry also acts as a reminder that you are spending a lot of Bureaucracy on this project, and that it will eventually be made available again once the survey is complete.
DD34 03.png

Constructing a Canal is far from trivial. Before any work can begin, an extensive survey of the region needs to be conducted, costing a hefty chunk of Bureaucracy for the surveyor for around 3 years. Either the owner of the state or a Great Power with an Interest in the region can conduct a survey. Any number of countries can potentially conduct their own surveys and compete to build the Canal themselves.

We’ve made the conscious decision to avoid starting wars or Diplomatic Plays through scripted content wherever possible, instead offering incentives for the player to start their own Plays and encouraging the AI to pursue Journal Entry goals. In this case, the player has the option to either gain a Claim on Sinai or to improve relations with the owner country, helping you along your chosen path but not locking you into a particular course of action.
DD34 04.png

Once you’ve completed your survey, the path diverges depending on whether you own the appropriate land. If you already own either a Treaty Port or the whole state region you can simply begin constructing the canal, but if not you’ll need to find a way to acquire it, either through monetary or coercive means. A Decision becomes available allowing you to purchase a Treaty Port in the appropriate State Region in exchange for a series of very large weekly payments, assuming you can convince the local rulers to part with the port. You might however decide that you’d rather keep your money and start a Diplomatic Play for a Treaty Port or the entire State Region (the former will cost you a lot less Infamy), which might lead either to a peaceful concession to your demands or to war.

And that’s all for today! Next week I’ll be handing you over to one of our Content Designers to talk about Expeditions and Decisions.
 
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I know you want to be light on the "railroady" historical events, but:
(for instance if you as communist Italy no longer want to Church to wield so much power) you can simply defund them.
Does that imply that a normal Italy (say, the historical Savoy kingdom) will have full control of Rome, Vatican included, and that the prisoner in the Vatican won't be a thing? I mean the monument already gives the golden opportunity for the event: if you conquer Rome and the Pope is mad at you, you don't get the bonuses of the monument (and perhaps an extra malus to the devout IG happiness), but if you give in to his requests and make him happy you'll get a boon.
 
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I like the canals but dislike that monuments will influence pops, interest groups or national modifiers, that feels out of place for Victoria III.
 
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Just a bit nitpicky but the Vatican's bonus should be temporarily frozen for a number of years if any state happens to defeat the Papal State and control Rome.

That is pretty much what happened after the unification of Italy and until the 1920s, when the pope decided not to recognise the Italian state and forbade Catholics from participating in government (largely unheeded).
In Vic3 terms, you could argue that the failed papal recognition actually subtracted influence from newborn Italy, and hindered the creation of a unified Devout political movement.
 
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If I may, think of it from this angle: the point of the monument is that you get to destroy it. The bonus is just there to bribe the other guy into building it in the first place so that you can destroy it.

Imagine Kaiser Wilhelm, stone-faced, watching as the sappers rig demolition charges around the Eiffel Tower. Imagine the free people of Italy stabling their animals in the corridors of the Vatican, smashing the statues and daubing communist slogans on the walls. Imagine Eugene Debs speaking from a podium atop the mangled scrap of the Statue of Liberty. Imagine rows of proud, tired Canadian troops in neat formation as flames lick out of the windows of the White House. Imagine being the person who blows up the pyramids.

How much less interesting would this be if it were just another building?
But imagining it I feel that they wouldn't do it, just change the purpose of building to suit their own needs - propaganda measures for example.
 
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Will you have access rules to canals? Can the owner block rivals’ or adversaries’ trade or navies from traversing? The same question also applies to straights, like Bosporus or Danish belts. Will you be able to collect tolls from other countries trading through your canal? My problem with Vic2 was that the race for canals was pretty meaningless, as pretty much everybody could use a canal once built, without any particular preferences for the owner.
 
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The problem here is that you would, presumably, have to annex said state to delete the building. Instead of imagining Kaiser Wilhelm demolishing the Eiffel Tower, you have to imagine the German Empire annex half of France and then destroying a building that is only beneficial to Germany. Instead of Canada burning down the White House, Canada is declaring that Washington D.C. is now a part of Canada and trying to govern a massive population of disgruntled Americans, and then they burn down a building that would make the bureaucratic strain easier for them.

And even if I'm wrong and you could march an army into Washington D.C. and burn down the White House... what's to stop the Americans from just rebuilding it? It's no different from any other building, there's nothing saying that once it's gone, it's gone. The USA should surely be able to afford the cost.

I am worried that this monument system just encourages nonsensical expansion into random states to seize bonuses. France conquering Rome (ignoring the rest of Italy) to get more influence, or the UK conquering Paris for some bonus. The Papal States should have very high devout influence, because it's the Papal States and a theocracy, not because of a building that it can dismantle at will. Not sure why the USA, famous for having a fairly elitist democracy, should give Pops more political strength from votes either.
You brought up something else that's being missed here. EU4 is definitively a blobbing game. Vic3 is not. However this mechanic directly encourages that kind of nonsensical behavior.
 
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Haven't written before, but so far I was loving all the DD, this one is great on the canal side, but the "magical effects" of monuments are just a massive mistake in my opinion...
 
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Great point! You're right that some of the current effects of monument-type buildings are perhaps unsuitable for the game's theme. As usual the exact numbers are WIP and we definitely appreciate the feedback. I hear you on the White House's national Bureaucracy multiplier for example - will rework this into a larger bonus to local Government Administration buildings instead.

On the other hand, some monument buildings ought to have national effects, as symbols of the nation's accomplishments or identity - the Eiffel Tower or the Hagia Sophia are good examples of these. And if the Ottoman Empire conquers Rome and don't want their Devout IG to gain additional political strength from having taken control of the Vatican, they (or anyone who controls it) can certainly burn it to the ground. It is just a building, and follow all the normal building rules. Monuments don't have any special powers to affect the country in non-immersive, "magical" seeming ways - if they do, we may have made a mistake, and mistakes can be easily fixed. :)
Would it be possible to have production methods for the monuments? So you could make the vatican just be an art museum effectively, allow it to exist as a small independent polity, pay to support its existence as an independent polity, etc.

Also going to echo everyone else in this thread about no magic effects and allowing anyone to builds monuments. Keep it to influence, prestige, interest group approval (and possibly power if it’s an active choice to support the monument), etc. I will note that I think migration does make sense for a monument, as people would hear about the big statue and thus be more likely to move there.
 
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I'm not liking the way it's going with those wonders.

I mean, sure, some of them absolutely should have national effects, nothing wrong there. But they shouldn't be exclusive to whoever owns the nation/state.

The Vatican is a big deal because it's the seat of the biggest, most centralized organized religion on the planet, capable of influencing the course of world politics through the wealth pouring in from donations by the faithful and the clergy organizing the faithful.
This is something the Vatican currently models with the Influence gain modifier, but it poorly handles the question of faith and its impact thereon.
Rather, an active Vatican should have an effect on and on the basis of the catholic pops in a nation. It should impact the political activities of such pops depending on national policy, and how the Vatican itself reacts to those policies.
It's unique mostly because of how organized and centralized the Catholic Church is as an entity, but religion was a key factor in 19th and 20th century politics. It should be possible, if not necessarily easy, to create and entreat similar organizations in different religions, even if the reality on the ground will be very different. It would still be something that could be represented as a building centered in a specific state or province, as that's where the meetings deciding religious policy and doctrine (usually) take place.

The White House is a little different, but only in that the White House expresses a centralized government body that is thoroughly matched by every other nation. The Houses of Parliament of the UK, the Dutch Binnenhof, the Hofburg in Austria, the Kremlin of Moscow in Russia and the Forbidden Palace of China are all historical locations that have for centuries functioned as the home for the central authority for their nations, and did so during the time of the game.
They, likewise, should have impacts on a nation's capabilities, and how it's organized, and should perhaps change effects based on the way the nation's power structure itself changes.
 
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This is really bad. I want my territorial expansion to be directed by resources or geography, not by magical monuments. I can already see myself snaking my way to Paris and Vatican just to get nationwide buffs every single game. It is completely unrealistic and more importantly, it leads to unfun gameplay.
 
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I don't even think the White House is a monument. It's just a official residence that any country may have. It is neither magnificent nor valuable, it's the strength of USA that makes it famous.
 
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I hope there's more than 2 canals, there's quite a few that should be important from the area, Eerie Canal, the White Sea-Baltic Canal and the Kiel canal in particular.
 
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Was it possible in reality to not allow certain countries to use the canal in peacetime?
The fact that Britain didn't allow the Russian fleet to pass through the Suez Canal during the Russo-Japanese War came to mind, but it was not an episode of not allowing use of the canal in peacetime, considering that Russia was at war with Japan, an ally of Britain.
Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but a significant part of the Russian fleet did pass the Suez Canal, and the ones going around the Cape did so because the Canal wasn’t deep enough for the largest units of the fleet at the time. However, there was a notable case of blocking the Canal that led to an international crisis, however it was outside the game’s timeframe.
 
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Good evening and welcome to this week’s Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s topic is Canals & Monuments, unique buildings with special inputs, outputs, and effects.

The Vatican City is the seat of the Catholic Church and a great asset to the Papal States in Victoria 3. As Europe developed and industrialized, the power of religious authority in national politics declined steeply but never lost its relevance. Can you change the course of history and renew the temporal power of the Pope?
View attachment 808266
Monuments are unique buildings only available in specific states, each with its own 3D model on the map. They make use of some of the more interesting aspects of the production methods system; just as buildings can output Goods, they can also output both national and local modifiers, Capacities, and effects on the pops working there. The Vatican City for instance outputs the Influence capacity as well as greatly increasing the political strength of the Devout Interest Group. Meanwhile the White House adds a multiplier to your national Bureaucracy output as well as increasing the amount of political strength Pops gain from votes. Not all Monuments are present at the start date. Some, like the Eiffel Tower, must be constructed, and Monuments are significantly more costly and time-consuming to construct than standard buildings. Monuments are subsidized by government funding, so if you decide that a Monument is unaffordable or that you aren’t interested in its effects (for instance if you as communist Italy no longer want to Church to wield so much power) you can simply defund them. On release we intend to have eleven different Monuments in total.

The Panama Canal links the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Finally completed in 1914 after decades of planning and construction, ships no longer had to take the long and treacherous route around South America to travel between the East and West. Yes, we can see the trees and houses in the Canal - we’ll fix it!
View attachment 808267
Like Monuments, Canals are unique buildings with a special set of inputs and outputs. But the true allure of constructing a Canal is that it allows you to create new connections between sea nodes, allowing ships to travel through the isthmuses of Panama and Suez. This significantly reduces the Convoy costs for trading and supplying armies across vast ocean distances, as well as your vulnerability to unscrupulous rivals trying to disrupt your supply lines.

We use the Journal Entry system to track the progress of your canal survey. Behind the scenes a variable is increased every month until the goal is reached, which triggers the completion event. The Journal Entry also acts as a reminder that you are spending a lot of Bureaucracy on this project, and that it will eventually be made available again once the survey is complete.
View attachment 808268
Constructing a Canal is far from trivial. Before any work can begin, an extensive survey of the region needs to be conducted, costing a hefty chunk of Bureaucracy for the surveyor for around 3 years. Either the owner of the state or a Great Power with an Interest in the region can conduct a survey. Any number of countries can potentially conduct their own surveys and compete to build the Canal themselves.

We’ve made the conscious decision to avoid starting wars or Diplomatic Plays through scripted content wherever possible, instead offering incentives for the player to start their own Plays and encouraging the AI to pursue Journal Entry goals. In this case, the player has the option to either gain a Claim on Sinai or to improve relations with the owner country, helping you along your chosen path but not locking you into a particular course of action.
View attachment 808269
Once you’ve completed your survey, the path diverges depending on whether you own the appropriate land. If you already own either a Treaty Port or the whole state region you can simply begin constructing the canal, but if not you’ll need to find a way to acquire it, either through monetary or coercive means. A Decision becomes available allowing you to purchase a Treaty Port in the appropriate State Region in exchange for a series of very large weekly payments, assuming you can convince the local rulers to part with the port. You might however decide that you’d rather keep your money and start a Diplomatic Play for a Treaty Port or the entire State Region (the former will cost you a lot less Infamy), which might lead either to a peaceful concession to your demands or to war.

And that’s all for today! Next week I’ll be handing you over to one of our Content Designers to talk about Expeditions and Decisions.
Neat! Mind telling us which 11 monuments you plan to include?
 
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Would it be possible to have production methods for the monuments? So you could make the vatican just be an art museum effectively, allow it to exist as a small independent polity, pay to support its existence as an independent polity, etc.

This is actually a nice idea. The main production method would be restricted to the Pope, then the others to any would-be conquerors.
 
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I'm not 100% on board with the mentioned bonuses, but some of the doom and gloom in this thread is a little excessive. Even if nothing changes there's 11 of these and depending on your goal the 'buffs' might not even actually be beneficial to you. I very much doubt the 11 moments are going to have such massive effects that you create your strategy around them.

With all that said, I hope Paradox takes a good look at what bonuses they do decide to go with and make them as appropriate as possible because I agree the White House bonuses do not seem to fit very well. Luckily, lachek has already said they will do just that.
 
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The problem here is that you would, presumably, have to annex said state to delete the building. Instead of imagining Kaiser Wilhelm demolishing the Eiffel Tower, you have to imagine the German Empire annex half of France and then destroying a building that is only beneficial to Germany. Instead of Canada burning down the White House, Canada is declaring that Washington D.C. is now a part of Canada and trying to govern a massive population of disgruntled Americans, and then they burn down a building that would make the bureaucratic strain easier for them.

And even if I'm wrong and you could march an army into Washington D.C. and burn down the White House... what's to stop the Americans from just rebuilding it? It's no different from any other building, there's nothing saying that once it's gone, it's gone. The USA should surely be able to afford the cost.

I am worried that this monument system just encourages nonsensical expansion into random states to seize bonuses. France conquering Rome (ignoring the rest of Italy) to get more influence, or the UK conquering Paris for some bonus. The Papal States should have very high devout influence, because it's the Papal States and a theocracy, not because of a building that it can dismantle at will. Not sure why the USA, famous for having a fairly elitist democracy, should give Pops more political strength from votes either.

My reading of the initial post was that it's up to the controller, not the owner, as to whether they want to demolish it. This means that if you take control of the province temporarily during a war, you can turn monuments into rubble. I also understood from the post that once the monument is gone, it's gone - you can build a copy of the Eiffel Tower, sure, but the original was the one that mattered and now it's gone.

On your point about expansion - I think it a) creates incentives for the defender to blow things up if they think they're going to lose them permanently, which is a dramatic story beat; and b) creates drama when a vital place falls even if you're not likely to be able to hold it in the peace deal. Washington DC, for example, was one of the most fortified places on Earth during the US Civil War, and it wasn't because it was a major population centre or production centre. If the Confederacy had burned it, it would have been a big dramatic moment.
 
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Are the Eiffel Tower, Statue of Liberty, and Big Ben included by any chance? How does making a monument of smaller-scale work? Can I gift monuments of a smaller size (e.g Statues)? SO MANY QUESTIONS IM SORRY, but this is VERY cool!
 
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Are there any plans for alternate history monuments and canals? For example the Thai or Kra Canal (to connect the Gulf of Thailand with the Andaman Sea) was proposed many times before, during, and after the Vicky time period but wasn't constructed due to a lack of interest from Thailand and Britain. In an alternate history where say Thailand industrializes itself or Britain or some other power takes a greater interest in the canal it would be very plausible to see it built.

This is a very good idea, same with monuments also? Were there any proposed monuments never built?
 
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