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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #11 - Employment and Qualifications

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Happy Thursday and welcome to another deep-dive into the guts of Victoria 3’s economic machinery. This week we will be talking about Pop Professions, specifically how and why Pops change Profession. While this is an automatic process, the mechanics of it is still crucial knowledge to keep in the back of your head when building your society. Perhaps you want to ensure the population in one of your states are able to take on Machinist jobs before embarking on a rapid industrialization project there, or perhaps you want to ensure you don’t accidentally enable too much social mobility in a country already prone to uprisings against their true and lawful King.

First, a quick recap. In the Pops dev diary we learned that all Pops have a Profession, which determines their social strata and influences a number of things like wages, political strength, and Interest Group affiliations. In the Buildings dev diary we learned that buildings need Pops of specific Professions to work there in order for them to produce their intended effects on the economy and society. Finally, in the Production Methods dev diary we learned that different Production Methods change the number of Profession positions available in a building. So how do Pops get assigned to these spots?

Our approach here differs a bit from previous games. Victoria 1 and 2 has the concept of a “Pop Type”, a fundamental property of Pops in those games that defines most aspects of their existence - what function they perform in society, what goods they need to survive vs. what goods they desire, what ideologies they espouse, etcetera. Pops in Victoria 2 autonomously change into other types over time depending on their finances and the various needs and aspects of the country. Providing access to luxury goods in your country permits Pops to promote more easily. Generally speaking, higher-tier Pops will provide better bonuses for your country as different Pop Types perform different functions. By manufacturing or importing special goods and educating your population you would turn your simple, backwards Pops into advanced, progressive types in ideal ratios, which maximizes these bonuses to increase your competitive advantage.

Pop Types from Victoria 2: Aristocrats, Artisans, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, Clerks, Craftsmen, Farmers, Laborers, Officers, Slaves, and Soldiers.
poptypes-v2.png

Victoria 3 Pops instead have Professions. These are in some ways similar to “Pop Type”, but the ideal ratios and economic functions of those Professions differ based on the building they’re employed in and the Production Methods activated. The fundamental difference between these two approaches become clear when considering the Bureaucrat Pop Type/Profession in Victoria 2 and 3. In both games, Bureaucrats increase a country’s administrative ability. But in Victoria 2 Pops promote into Bureaucrats independently in relation to the amount of administrative spending the player sets, while in Victoria 3 Pops will only become Bureaucrats if there are available Bureaucrat jobs in Government buildings, usually as a result of the player actively expanding Government Administrations.

Professions in Victoria 3: Academics, Aristocrats, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen (temporary icon; will be changed to be more universally applicable), Clerks, Engineers, Farmers, Laborers, Machinists, Officers, Peasants, Servicemen, Shopkeepers, and Slaves.
professions-v3.png

The latter approach gives the player more control over where these job opportunities are created, and combined with Production Methods cause demographic shifts to have stronger, more localized effects that are easier to predict and understand. It’s also more flexible, permitting the same Profession to cause different effects in different Buildings given different Production Methods. So in Victoria 3 higher-paid Pops don’t by their very nature perform a more valuable societal function than lower-paid Pops - rather, each acts as a crucial part of a Production Method’s ‘recipe’. Each of these roles require the others to be effective - without enough Laborers to shovel coal the engines the Machinists maintain stay dormant, and without seamstresses to work the sewing machines the Shopkeepers don’t have any clothes to sell.

Buildings adjust their wages over time in order to achieve full employment with minimal wage costs. As employment increases, so does the Throughput - the degree by which the building consumes input goods and produces output goods. By the laws of supply and demand, this makes a building less profitable per capita the closer to full employment it gets, so at first blush it might appear irrational for a building to pay more wages just to reduce their margins. But since a “building” does not represent a single factory but rather a whole industrial sector across a large area, and we assume the individual businesses in that sector compete with each other rather than engage in cartel behavior to extort consumers, this adjustment of wages to maximize employment makes sense. However, buildings won’t increase wages due to labor competition if this would cause them to go into deficit, so there’s little point to expanding industries beyond the point where they’re profitable.

Employees are hired into available jobs from the pool of Pops that already exist in the state, but unless they’re unemployed these Pops will already have a job somewhere doing something else. Pops can be hired under two conditions: first, they must be offered a measurably higher wage than the wage they’re currently getting from their current employment. Second, unless they already work as the required Profession in another building, they must also meet the Qualifications of that Profession to change into it.

These Steel Mills don’t pay as well as the Arms Industries, but they do seem to offer better terms than the Textile Mills and resource industries in the same state - with the notable exception of Fishing Wharves, who also need Machinists to service their trawlers.
steel-mills-hiring.PNG

Wages are set by individual buildings in response to market conditions. A building that is losing money will decrease wages until it’s back in the black. A building that has open jobs it can’t seem to fill will raise wages until it either fills the necessary positions or runs out of excess profits. As a result, different buildings in the same state will compete for the available workforce. What this means in practice is that a large population with the necessary Qualifications to perform all the jobs being created in the state will keep wages depressed and profits high. Only when industries are large or advanced enough that they need to compete with each other for a limited pool of qualified workers are wages forced to rise. This rise in wages also comes with increased consumption, which increases demand for goods and services that some of the same buildings may profit from in the end.

A Pop’s Qualifications measure how many of its workforce qualify for certain Professions, and updates monthly depending on how well their current properties match up to the expectations of the Profession in question. For example, at least a basic education level is required to become a Machinist while a much higher one is required to become an Engineer. Conversely, the ability to become an Aristocrat is less about education and more about social class and wealth. Buildings won’t hire Pops who don’t meet the Qualifications for the Profession in question.

These 981 Machinists qualify to become Engineers at a rate of 4.08 per month. Their Literacy is nothing to write home about but they at least meet the cut-off of 20%, aren’t starving to death, and benefit substantially from already working in an adjacent field. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
machinist-quals.PNG

If some Paper Mills required more Engineers and this Pop was being considered, only the amount of qualified Engineers they’ve accumulated so far could be hired. Currently that is only 85 (not shown). If those 85 were all hired, this Pop would then end up with only 896 members left in the workforce of which 0 now qualify to become Engineers. Since all recently hired Engineers used to be Machinists, all 85 retain their Machinist Qualifications. Furthermore, if 512 members of this Pop qualified to be Farmers before the hire (52%), of the 85 of them who were newly promoted to Engineers, 44 of these new Engineers are also qualified to become Farmers.

To be considered for a “job” as Aristocrat a Pop must have at least moderate Wealth, and the more Wealth they have the faster they will develop this potential. Unlike many other jobs Literacy is not a requirement for being accepted into the aristocracy, but an education does make it easier. Bureaucrats and Officers have an easier time becoming Aristocrats than other members of society, while Pops who suffer discrimination on account of their culture have a much harder time. Finally, if a Pop does not meet the minimum Wealth requirement, they actually devolve any prior potential for becoming Aristocrats. This means that down-and-out former nobles robbed of their land and forced to go unemployed or (perish the thought) become a wage laborer will - over time - lose their ability to return to their former social class. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
officers-quals.PNG

Like all Pop attributes, Qualifications follow the Pops as they split, merge, move between buildings, migrate, and die. If you had previously developed a lot of potential Bureaucrats in your country but ran into budgetary problems and had to shut down your schools, over time those Pops who have already developed the Qualifications to become Bureaucrats will die off and not be replaced by newly educated ones. If your Capitalists in a given state had been underpaying their local discriminated employees to the degree that nobody gained the Qualifications to take over for them, and then some of those Capitalists move away to operate a newly opened Iron Mine in the next state over, rather than promoting some of the local discriminated Laborers to the newly opened jobs they will simply leave the spots open (and the mines underproducing) until some qualified Capitalists move in from elsewhere to take over.

Qualifications are entirely moddable by simply providing the computational factors that should go into determining how the value develops each month. If you want to make a mod to split up the Clergymen Profession into individual variants for each Religion in the game, you could make the Imam Profession dependent on the Pop being Sunni or Shi’ite. If you wanted Aristocrat Qualification development to be highly dependent on the amount of unproductive Arable Land in the state the Pop lives in, you could do that. An event option or Decision that makes it faster and easier to educate Engineers but harder to educate Officers for the next 10 years? Absolutely.

A breakdown of all Pops in Lower Egypt that qualify to become Engineers. Of course, any openings will be offered to existing Engineers first, and not all of the remaining qualified Pops would actually be interested in the job - though if it was lucrative enough, perhaps some Aristocrats on a failing Subsistence Farm would consider a career change.
potential-engineers.PNG

The intent of Qualifications is to signal to a player what capacity for employment they have available among any subset of their population. They cannot, for example, conquer a state filled with under-educated people they also legally discriminate against and expect to immediately build up a cutting-edge manufacturing- and trade center there. These efforts will be throttled by their inability to employ the locals into highly qualified positions, meaning they have to wait for members of their already qualified workforce to migrate there from the old country to take on any high-status positions created for them. But by building out their education system, paying Bureaucracy to extend their administrative reach to the new state through incorporation, and changing their Laws to extend citizenship to these new residents, they can start to build this capacity also in the locals.

In summary, Qualifications is the mechanism by which access to education and your stance on discrimination - in addition to many other factors - impact your ability to expand different parts of your society. It is also the mechanism that sorts Pops logically into the economic (and thereby political) niches you carve out as you expand, ensuring your laws and economic conditions inform the social mobility of Pops based on who they are. It’s quite subtle, and you might not even notice it’s there - until you run into the challenges caused by rapid industrialization, mass migration, conquests, colonization, and other drastic population shifts.

That is all for this week! Next Thursday we will finally get into how all this economic activity translates into revenue streams for you, when Martin presents the mechanics governing the Treasury and national debt.
 
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lachek

Victoria 3 Lead Designer
Paradox Staff
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Feb 19, 2013
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This comment is reserved by the Community Team for gathering Dev Responses in, for ease of reading.

the_hdk said:
Oof...the graphics of each pop are hard to read. they are too small in the text and maybe its my old 30years old eyes but I cannot distinguish them.
Yeah, you are right. They are definitely a bit hard to read when presented in the context of tooltips.

Make Victoria 3 said:
How will the "age" mechanic work exactly? Is there some age pyramid or will individual pop ages be tracked (which sounds like a performance nightmare) or just x% will die per year so in the case of literacy if you do not educate at least x% as well it will go down?
The latter. There is a slight bias to choose the illiterate members of the Pop when deaths are resolved, which could either represent the fact that the older members of your population tends to be more likely to be illiterate, or that they couldn't read the warning labels on the factory floor, take your pick. But if a Pop's education access decreases below their current Literacy level it doesn't matter how large that bias is, net literacy rate will still go down.

spots611 said:
Are the discrimination impacts on qualifications a replacement to the Vic II ban on industry in colonial states? I've been wondering how colonies will work and this seems like a far more elegant mechanic.
It's related to this, yes. During development we also experimented with having hard requirements for certain Professions, so the culturally discriminated could never turn into Aristocrats, for example. But this led to huge problems in recently conquered colonial territories where the newly discriminated would be robbed of their land holdings with the result that conquered farms and plantations became completely non-operational until accepted pops had the time and will to move in to take over operation. This sounds like a fun little side effect but was actually anything but in practice. What happens under this system is that the cowed and discriminated Aristocrats gradually lose their qualifications to be Aristocrats under these new laws, and will over time be replaced by other Pops deemed to be more suitable for the job.

Mattwae said:
I assume that buildings that reduce wages in order to return into the black won't run into the issue of:
  • Reduced wages makes pops seek employment elsewhere.
  • Reduced workers reduces production
  • Reduced production reduces income
  • Reduced income places the building in the red
  • The building reduces wages in order to maintain profits.
Both because this is expensive computationally, and because it might cause a building to employ no one and produce nothing.
Although it would be rather realistic.
Click to expand...
Reduced wages could result in Pops seeking employment elsewhere, which reduces production. But this actually tends to result in a net gain for the remaining Pops in the building, since it now pays fewer workers to make fewer goods, resulting in lower supply but retained demand, which means each unit produced and sold yields marginally more profit. So chronically unprofitable industries tend to find an equilibrium point where they can retain their current wage rate at the expense of not being able to achieve full employment.

LucasG21 said:
Will pops have any bias in demotion? For example, is it more likely for an aristocrat to demote to a farmer pop than to a machinist, given the similarities?
"Demotion" as such doesn't happen in this system. What happens is that an underpaid Aristocrat will take any job they qualify for as long as it pays better. So it's more likely that an Aristocrat will take a Machinist job at a very profitable factory than become a Farmer on a pretty humdrum Wheat Farm, and vice versa.

Kaspar Osraige said:
Some of these mechanics seem to represent only a capitalistic, free wage market. Will cooperative or command economies be treated any differently, especially with the competition part and how they employ people?
Great question! Currently there's no direct impact from the Command Economy Law on Qualifications or how Pops are preferentially sorted when hiring them. Qualifications is best thought of as a mishmash of "could this Pop literally carry out this particular Profession, given their current attributes" and "would other Pops in the country actually hire this Pop for this Profession, given their current attributes". The first part of that equation doesn't really change under Command Economy or cooperative forms of economic organization - you absolutely need a certain level of education to become an Academic or Engineer, and the greater the number of people who know how to read and write the greater the chance one of them will have the talents and tendencies to perform those jobs well. As for the second part... I'm not sure it'd make a difference, either! People tend to be, well, people, regardless of economic system, and people have biases about who they think would be a credible farmboy or clerk or military officer. So it's entirely possible Laws like those will end up making a difference to Qualification calculations before Victoria 3 is released, these numbers and factors aren't final, but even if so it probably won't make a huge impact.

What does change the equations quite a bit is more egalitarian access to the factors that produce Qualifications. In a liberal and non-discriminatory society, with a public school system and low wealth disparity, Pops will accumulate Qualifications a lot more equally on account of having more similar properties than in a discriminatory and stratified society.

joe9594 said:
Obviously you are the ones who have a feel for how this is balanced but I am shocked that the numbers seen there are so weighted to consider current employment over everything else. I mean for aristocrats wealth is contributing 0.1 per point, literacy is 0.01 per point and being officers is giving 9.71. So pops with wealth of 80 (insanely high) and literacy of 100% would between those things have as much contribution as just the factor from being an officer. And it is even moreconcerning for other job types which need actual skills.
Seems like it will make getting a population with the qualifications you need mainly just dependant on having the more basic pops of that same type (machinists to engineers, officers to aristocrats, shopkeepers to capitalists etc).
That seems unfortunate, a population with poor education (even if it is 20%) but lots of basic factory workers should only produce a tiny fraction of the engineers that one with high education can, same for shopkeepers to capitalists. The skills are not that transferable and they represent very different kinds of work and economic systems.
Good catch! Factors and values are very work-in-progress, and the impact from current Profession is indeed inflated at the moment compared to where it should be.
Having said that, it's not necessarily the case that having Wealth 20 means that every point of Wealth provides 0.1 to the algorithm. In the case of Aristocrats, the algorithm currently looks like this:
- requires Wealth > 10 to be positive at all, otherwise reduce by -2
- add ( Wealth - 10 ) / 5
- add literacy rate
- if Officers or Bureaucrats, multiply the current tally by 5 (this is the part that will be nerfed, likely to 2 or 3)
- if not culturally accepted, reduce by 90%

So a well-to-do, culturally accepted Clerk with Wealth 40 and Literacy 80% would gain a base factor of +6.8 to their Aristocrat Qualifications, which is a very respectable figure without already being one of the two preferred types.

And yeah, this algorithm is really hard to parse and we don't really expect players to keep these figures in their head - this breakdown is more for auditing purposes than gameplay purposes. If the player wants to ensure they gain more Qualifications for Aristocrats in their population, they should look at the Aristocrat description which will explain the factors in more comprehensible terms, like "Potential rises with Wealth and to a lesser degree by Literacy".

jaredstanko said:
I see that the steel mills are promoting machinists and engineers from qualified pops, but losing engineers to the war industry too quickly

So if the steel mills are gaining machinists but losing engineers that will make their production method 'recipe' stop working as well. So then they'll raise wages for engineers eventually? Do buildings raise wages for different jobs at different rates?

I hope you'll be able to prevent the systems from locking up, for example having a factory lose all its engineers and then have their budget deep in the red on account of inefficient machinists still drawing wages.
Buildings have a general "wage rate" and Professions have a wage weight that determines how large of a multiple of that rate they should get. So wages paid out are always proportional based on those weights. A building that needs more Engineers and finds it can't attract them based on their low wage rate will raise the wage rate generally, not only for Engineers. The latter would be cool but there's so many moving parts already - floating wages for each individual Profession in each building is the stuff of designer nightmares. Maybe one day!

With respect to the latter question, buildings will always aim for proportionality between Professions - if a factory loses all its Engineers and can't promote Machinists or other Professions to take over, it will start letting go of other employees until it returns to proportionality and profitability, and can start competing again to get some of those Engineers back.

OllyOllyOxenFree said:
Ok, if the pops now have professions and not types then does that mean:

1) Pops who don't have the correct type for a profession have maluses?

2) Does that mean that education facilities promote pop types before they enter the workforce if you have it?

3) Is there a cap as with Victoria 2? (5% for soldiers, 2% for officers, 4% for clergy etc.)

4) Does urbanization mechanic encourage pops to move into these factories from the rural countryside?

5) Do national focuses work the same way they did in Vic 2?

Thanks
Click to expand...
We'll get more into this in a couple of weeks but real quick:

1, 2) Pops who don't have the Qualifications for a Profession cannot get hired for that Profession. All Profession changes occur at point of hire, driven by market forces.
3) It's all based on the requirements of the Buildings as defined by their active Production Methods.
4) Only if those factories are more profitable (as they tend to be) and therefore capable of paying higher wages, AND the rural population qualify.
5) No. We have Decrees, and there is a decree to promote social mobility which helps build Qualifications in a state generally. But there's no "Encourage Profession X" type national focus, as this is driven by the needs of the Buildings.

cb30001 said:
What's the difference between farmers and peasants?
Peasants are employed on Subsistence Farms only and satisfy most of their needs off the land, outside of the economy proper.

Agamidae said:
No, I can see that. In this tooltip in particular, engineers are almost invisible. Farmers are hard to see. Machinists and laborers to a point too.View attachment 749389

It is much better in the next tooltip. So they need to figure out the backgrounds or make the icons much brighter. Maybe add more color to differentiate them?
View attachment 749388
Will ping our UX experts on this, thanks for the feedback! These smaller "text-icons" for Professions are pretty new and not fully polished yet, so hopefully we can address this.

Edit to add: but of course, they're already on the case :D

Irbynx said:
How will subsidies play into that? Will the factories still dynamically shift wages in command economies/under subsidies, or you'd be able to manually handle that?
Factories will still dynamically shift the wage rate they pay out while subsidized, so it still orients itself properly in the dynamic economy. The government is then required to top up that wage to pay the workers at least a "fair" wage, if needed, and to cover any shortfall if materiel costs exceed revenue from sales of produced goods. In return the building maintains as full employment and throughput as Qualifications allow.

Leoreth said:
A couple of questions:
  1. While this isn't directly related to qualifications, you mention that buildings adjust their wages depending on their economic conditions, and that pops will try to take jobs depending on those wages if there is a significant enough difference, including promoting based on their qualifications. Beyond the monthly qualification update, how much inertia is there in this system? Price shocks are possible, but the labour market is much less flexible than the commodity market, due to contracts, the need to move, and general human tendency to avoid change. This inertia has historically both prevented economies from reorienting efficiently to changing market conditions, but also sometimes buffered economic shocks. How will that look in the game? If it's checked too often and everyone can switch their employment I expect things to be quite swingy.
  2. Is there any distinction in the aristocrat and capitalist profession from other professions? Does a building/production method "need" those professions to operate? How does that correlate with the (not yet completely explained) mechanic that these pops provide the investment pool to build these buildings in the first place. I would assume that those pops are the "owners" of the buildings they financed. Obviously there is a level of abstraction going on here, but it seems strange to me that e.g. more people qualified to be capitalists are "promoted" because a factory "needs" more owners. If that's the case, what does the "need" for capitalists in a factory represent? Intuitively I would say a factory runs just as well if it is owned by fewer than more people.
  3. Does the fact that a pop is qualified to promote to a more socially prestigious profession but lacks the economic conditions to do so play a role in other sections of the game? For example, imagine there are a lot of machinists who are qualified to promote to engineer but the country currently does not have any additional jobs for engineers. Does the game consider promoting from machinist to engineer something that is socially desirable in itself, and would that fact lead to unhappiness / political opposition / emigration? Or is all of that a function of the wage difference between machinists and engineers?
Click to expand...
1. Deciding on the degree of inertia is a recurring design problem in the development of Victoria 3! On the one hand we want stability, both the sense of stability so your country feels like a real breathing nation full of willful people, and the impact of stability on a dynamic economic simulation to ensure one part of it doesn't overreact to another and bring the whole thing crashing down. On the other hand too much inertia makes the system feel unresponsive and removes the sense of cause and effect. To answer your specific question, productive buildings have a buffer called a Cash Reserve into which it will deposit any excess profits in fair weather and use as a buffer to avoid drastic crashes when the wind goes the other way. Buildings with an empty Cash Reserve will act much more drastically than ones with a full reserve, but all buildings that lose money will take some cautious steps to try to fix the problem before they lose too much. This means we get both some inertia where the economy doesn't go belly-up overnight because some Machinists decided to relocate, and the cause and effect of seeing buildings start to lose money, wages starting to lower, and Pops starting to change careers.

2. Aristocrats and Capitalists are required and they are required proportionally to the other Professions in the building. While that is arguably unrealistic - how many Aristocrats do you really need to own the land for people to work it productively, after all - but there's unfortunate side effects from not doing things this way, such as Farms full of Laborers but no Aristocrats to siphon off the profits being able to pay astronomic wages, and then when some Aristocrats move in and take over the land the building is suddenly deep in the red because the Aristocrats need to get paid their share. This then leads to metas where the factors that develop Qualifications for Aristocrats are artificially throttled to ensure simple Farms provide amazing wages without having to engage in any form of ownership reform. Disproportionality between Professions tend to throw the whole balance off, so we avoid it like the plague. Regarding Capitalist investments, it helps to think of a building as an industrial sector, not a single factory. Capitalists invest in expanding the manufacturing industry, which creates opportunities for other companies to move in and start businesses, which leads to more Capitalists.

3. In Victoria 3, Pops never change Profession unless a building offers them a job different than what they currently have. In this, Pops are perfectly rational actors and will only take jobs that pay better, regardless of perceived social status. However, with increased pay tends to come more political strength and other benefits, so that dimension isn't completely ignored either.

warsoldier said:
Concerning wages, will trade unions and strike actions be represented in some way?
The Trade Unions is an Interest Group present in every country. It tends to be weak at game start but often become very relevant in industrializing nations.

Regarding Strikes, they're present in the game and you will learn more about them later!

vyshan said:
So the rockerfellers, JP Morgan, Carnnige and other trusts and robber barons never engaged in such behavior? thats not going to be modeled?
That's not going to be modelled systemically at least, because it's no fun as a player to lay the tracks and build the infrastructure for a new Steel Mill and have the existing Steel Mill owners decide that production won't be increased because that might lead to them becoming individually less wealthy.

Valentin the II said:
I wonder, can qualifications be tied to technology?
Like, more machinists can qualify to be engineers in London where the technology is more advanced and the concept of a steam Engine is widely known and accepted than Kairo. Not only being dependent on the literacy and integration, literate people study different things which are effected by the society they live in.
It's not included in the set of factors currently, but it's very easy to add (or mod) in. Will take it into consideration!

Vathek said:
Few questions:
1. What will an unemployed pops ‘profession’ be? Just whatever they were last employed as?
2. Why no artisan profession to simulate cottage industry as in Vicky 2? Is this modelled in another way?
3. Do buildings in the red only reduce wages or do they also lay off workers? The latter would seem to be a better simulation of individual firms represented by ‘the building’ going bust and firms downsizing to reduce costs, which happens more often in the real world than wage cuts.
1. What they were last employed as, yes. This also gives them precedence for any new jobs created of that type in the state.
2. It's modeled in another way.
3. We used to have them do both actually, but the problem with that was that since wage rate is not set by the player but by the building, yet the building size is controllable by the player in the sense that they can pay to expand it, if the player pays money and time to expand a building which then won't hire because with the current wage rate that'd put it into the red (due to increasing demand of input goods / increasing supply of output goods), that's a very unsatisfying experience and leads to a lot of analysis paralysis. It's a much more satisfying experience to expand a building, see building wage rate decrease somewhat, and see some of those employees move into other jobs to make room for poorer employees. With this approach we also don't get the weird downward spirals in the economy where lower supply of Tools due to layoffs leads to lower profit in other manufacturing industries, which in turn leads to layoffs, etc. It sounds cool but it's very annoying when it happens. :)

Ramidel said:
Are serfs considered slaves or peasants?
Peasants. Victoria 3's definition of a Slave is a person who is wholly owned by another person and can be bought and sold as property. This excludes serfs, most indentured servants, etc who are instead represented as the Profession they're carrying out.

MTGian said:
So, let's say a country wants to restrict social mobility. If you are a farmer, then you (and your descendants) stay farmers. If you are a soldier, then you (and your descendants) stay soldiers. Could this system model that in some way? What would that look like?
If we wanted to do something like that there's a modifier that can be added to, well, anything: Laws, Institutions, Buildings, via Event options, Decisions, etc that reduces Qualification gain across the board. But typically we assume that the baseline is the lowest possible social mobility, and instead of penalties we apply bonuses to those things that provide better social mobility across the nation. Same effect but has a better feel, especially since Pops having good Qualifications is virtually never a bad thing from the player's perspective - it just gives them more options.

durbal said:
'...and 74 more items.' This is the same UI problem that CK3 has, except now even more massive. There needs to be a better way to display this information or the amount of critical data that warrants informing the player needs to be cut down.

Victoria 3 is looking more and more like a spreadsheet with a bad UI facade over the top with every new dev diary.
There is a much better way to display this information one level up, where it's aggregated.
Our philosophy is to always aggregate so the player can make good decisions on the right level, but also always provide ways to delve deeper into the raw data on demand.

MrMineHeads said:
So buildings won't engage in any layoffs, just a reduction in wage rate? So how do Pops become unemployed?
Unemployment occurs in instances where some employees leaves and proportionality cannot be easily restored (i.e. a couple of smaller businesses in the sector closed down because a bunch of Engineers went elsewhere, rendering the Machinists, Laborers, and Capitalists temporarily inconvenienced for a few weeks until they can find other employment), when there's inbound migration but insufficient jobs (and/or insufficient Qualifications among the immigrants), and when automation Production Methods are activated that makes a chunk of workforce redundant.

Jorlem said:
From a UI/Immersion perspective, this is a place where I think V2 did it better than V3 looks like it is doing. Having the POPs represented by pictures of people makes them feel more like people, while V3's icons lose that. There's nothing in these icons that indicates that they represent people, and I think that is important to have.
The Pop icons in V2 were great for this, agreed. The reasons we didn't use this approach in V3 are threefold:
1) Static icons that look like people could not possibly even begin to represent the diversity of people all around the world. I find V2's icons to be immersive when I play Britain, but pretty immersion-shattering when I play Bhutan.
2) On the other hand we don't want different icons for different cultures, either, since the point of an "icon" is to be instantly recognizable even between different game sessions.
3) We have the technological luxury of actually being able to display each Pop as a rendered portrait of a unique person, which reduces the need to use Profession icons to give you a sense of Pop personhood by approximately 97%.

Jamaican Castle said:
Can there be unemployment if a resource runs into such a shortage that it stops being available altogether? (As opposed to just being more expensive.)
This will make the building extremely unprofitable which will cause it to dump its wages. This will cause the lowest-paid employees to return to being Peasants on Subsistence Farms or just migrate away. It can also cause unemployment if a bunch of Laborers leave, nobody else comes in to replace them on account of the low wages offered, and Pops of other Professions are fired to restore proportionality.

toegut said:
the question was whether a pop can add new qualifications simultaneously, not whether it already carries around multiple qualifications in its pool. From the screenshots posted it's not clear whether the pop can add +4 to machinists and +2 to aristocrats this same month, or whether it fills its pool of qualified machinists first and then starts to fill aristocrats.
Qualifications for all Professions are updated for each Pop once per month. There's no queue where they have to fill up Qualifications for one Profession before moving onto another.

wisecat said:
1. How big will this cash reserve be?
2. Will its size be static or dynamic?
3. If dynamic will it change with:
3.1. Change in price of product produced by the building
3.2. Change in size of building
3.3. Change of profitability rate of building
3.4. Change of average wages in a country
4. Will this reserve disappear in command economy?
The size is static by building type but depends on the building level, so a level 3 Textile Mill has 3x the size Cash Reserve of a level 1 Textile Mill. It does not disappear under command economies, no.

wisecat said:
In RL most socialist economies subsidize full or almost full employment even if a given factory is unprofitable.
Will this be simulated in game? Can you spend your national treasury on this?

(to be honest, I don't believe that VIC3 as it is now can convincingly simulate a socialist economy, because it will require a whole new economic system to be programmed in, with such key distinctions as totally fiat money, non-convertible money, total ban on conversion of bank deposits into cash for enterprises).
We'll talk more about this later but in short this is simulated via the way subsidy mechanics works in a Command Economy.
You're correct that some of the fundamental distinctions between capitalist and communist systems of organizing the economy cannot be captured with our market mechanics, since it's completely driven by supply and demand affecting goods prices in ways that doesn't make a clear distinction between "sales price" and "value" .

Rhion said:
If a potentially qualified pop promotes to a profession requiring a higher literacy or wealth, does this lower the literacy rate of the pop they originated from?
Yes! The literacy rate shown is actually a computation, the value stored in the Pop is how many of its members are literate. These literate members are transferred in greater quantities if the Pop is hired into a job that requires greater Literacy, so it will in effect drain the source Pop's literacy rate.

kalauer said:
So if I understand this correctly, let's have a look at this example:

There are two job opportunities in a state, both competing for the same workers. Let's say, they each want 100 and there are 100 in total in the state. One is slightly more profitable than the other. Over time, if nothing else changes, we will see an equilibrium in which the more profitable workplace ("1") is filled to 100% (taking in all available workers) and the other ("2") has 0?

Now what happened is that 1 increased its wages to compete against 2 and because 1 is more profitable, it could do so longer than 2, winning the race. However, 1 still diminished its profitability because of the high wages. My question is: Will the now empty 2 keep pushing up wages for 1, until it is demolished?

Or do I have an error in my example and, e.g. the split between 1 and 2 is more continuous, like 80%/20%, depending on the profitability-advantage, because it is reduced when having higher employment rate?

And in any case, we effectively see a distribution of wealth to the limiting factor of production (in this case: labor)? If there were more wokers than jobs, we'd see the profiuts go to the jop opportunity owners? If so, are the owners' wages paid before the job opportunity balance is made or will they effectively work for free to fill their jobs (given that "being in black" is the hard cut-off)?
Click to expand...
There's a limit to how many Pops can be hired by a building each week. In week 1, workplace 1 will gain hiring precedence and will recruit the "best" workers until it's reached its limit. If there are more qualifying workers after that, workplace 2 will recruit them, up to their limit. If the building manages to hire it won't increase wages. Now, in week 2, workplace 1 has now increased their throughput and their net profit as a result has decreased somewhat, and it won't try to increase wages since it's been successful in recruiting new workers. This makes it comparatively less desirable than workplace 2, which might have increased its wages and as such might get precedence over 1 this time around.

Over time, the most productive / profitable building will be able to hire more workers than the less productive building, but they'll both get opportunities to increase their throughput and for as long as they have profit to spare and job opportunities to fill they will continue to compete on wages to steal workers from each other.

As for owner wages, they're distinct from dividends - these are the excess profits paid out to shareholders (=owners) after Cash Reserve deposits have been made. So owners take their "fixed" share of the wages alongside everyone else in the building, but then get paid a weekly bonus depending on how well the building is doing.

hazard151 said:
Probably out of scope of this dev diary, but how does this interact with pops out of State? If there's a labour shortage will it start pulling in qualified personnel from different states? If there's a labour surplus, will it start pushing the unemployed to other states?
At the moment there is no explicit "there are job opportunities over there, time to move" mechanic, since that would require us to assess the wage paid for each of those job opportunities compared to the current wage the Pop is being offered to not get weird effects. Essentially to model it perfectly would be to assess each opportunity for each Pop across a whole market which would be much too CPU heavy and arguably quite unrealistic given that there are huge barriers to packing up and moving even to an adjacent state in the same country.

However, the Standard of Living (which we'll learn more about in a couple of weeks) of Pops in a state does affect its migration attraction. Indirectly this means that if a state has a good amount of labor competition and therefore relatively high wages, and reasonable access to consumer goods and government amenities that affect that measure, it will be a better state to move to. In addition, unemployed Pops are more likely than employed Pops to take the risk of moving to another state in search of greener pastures. This does create the effect you're describing, it just takes a longer route to get there.
 
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Aristocrats work on subsistence farms, that’s new. Do Production Methods change this? Are there subsistence farms like in say the US that don’t employ them?
 
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How will the "age" mechanic work exactly? Is there some age pyramid or will individual pop ages be tracked (which sounds like a performance nightmare) or just x% will die per year so in the case of literacy if you do not educate at least x% as well it will go down?
 
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Are the discrimination impacts on qualifications a replacement to the Vic II ban on industry in colonial states? I've been wondering how colonies will work and this seems like a far more elegant mechanic.
 
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I assume that buildings that reduce wages in order to return into the black won't run into the issue of:
  • Reduced wages makes pops seek employment elsewhere.
  • Reduced workers reduces production
  • Reduced production reduces income
  • Reduced income places the building in the red
  • The building reduces wages in order to maintain profits.
Both because this is expensive computationally, and because it might cause a building to employ no one and produce nothing.
Although it would be rather realistic.
 
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Oof...the graphics of each pop are hard to read. they are too small in the text and maybe its my old 30years old eyes but I cannot distinguish them.
Are you looking at the vic2 people pops? Cause I find the new Vic3 icons a lot easier to tell at a glance
 
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Little off top

Im still thinking about political parties. One of the best experiences of V2 was to see the historical parties, how they changed, die out and being created. The thing that was lacking was the possibility to create your own pet party (unless you do some modding that was also fun :cool:). It was great to see your parliament painted in parites colours.

My Idea on how parties should work in V3 (regarding the dev's desire to keep intrest groups and not replace it with political parties):
1. Parties should be entities simmilar to intrest groups, with their (historical) leaders, colours based on ideology (those in V2 were perfect), and they should form the parliament and govermnents.
2. Parties should have programs/manifestos. They should have stance on every possible issiues. (Having historical parties with their program is so exciting, but you can keep option to tailor player's pet party with its program).
3. Support for the parties should be based od interest groups, simmilar way the support of interest groups is based on pops. So % of intrest group should go to support this party that represents their prefered issues. But also some interest groups should prefere certain ideologies. Landowners and religious should be more likely to support conservative parties, industrialists and petit bourgeoisie should be more in favour of liberal parties and of course proletariat should be more in favour of socialists.


About religion
I really hope that atheist/non-religious form of "religious" affiliation will be included. For example the communist Soviet Russia had the state atheism program to "convert" people to atheist. Schools in countires like this should enocurage population to atheist "conversion".

Hope my ideas can be helpfull to someone reading it.
 
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I assume that buildings that reduce wages in order to return into the black won't run into the issue of:
  • Reduced wages makes pops seek employment elsewhere.
  • Reduced workers reduces production
  • Reduced production reduces income
  • Reduced income places the building in the red
  • The building reduces wages in order to maintain profits.
Both because this is expensive computationally, and because it might cause a building to employ no one and produce nothing.
How would it not run into that problem? We already know that workers will switch buildings if the other building pays more, so That seems like exactly the kind of thing Vic 3 models
 
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I assume that buildings that reduce wages in order to return into the black won't run into the issue of:
  • Reduced wages makes pops seek employment elsewhere.
  • Reduced workers reduces production
  • Reduced production reduces income
  • Reduced income places the building in the red
  • The building reduces wages in order to maintain profits.
Both because this is expensive computationally, and because it might cause a building to employ no one and produce nothing.
Why would you hope that never happens? That seems to be a good model of a deflationary spiral, which should be in the game if you want to model economic crises.
 
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Some of these mechanics seem to represent only a capitalistic, free wage market. Will cooperative or command economies be treated any differently, especially with the competition part and how they employ people?
 
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Obviously you are the ones who have a feel for how this is balanced but I am shocked that the numbers seen there are so weighted to consider current employment over everything else. I mean for aristocrats wealth is contributing 0.1 per point, literacy is 0.01 per point and being officers is giving 9.71. So pops with wealth of 80 (insanely high) and literacy of 100% would between those things have as much contribution as just the factor from being an officer. And it is even moreconcerning for other job types which need actual skills.
Seems like it will make getting a population with the qualifications you need mainly just dependant on having the more basic pops of that same type (machinists to engineers, officers to aristocrats, shopkeepers to capitalists etc).
That seems unfortunate, a population with poor education (even if it is 20%) but lots of basic factory workers should only produce a tiny fraction of the engineers that one with high education can, same for shopkeepers to capitalists. The skills are not that transferable and they represent very different kinds of work and economic systems.
 
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