• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #11 - Employment and Qualifications

DD11.png


Happy Thursday and welcome to another deep-dive into the guts of Victoria 3’s economic machinery. This week we will be talking about Pop Professions, specifically how and why Pops change Profession. While this is an automatic process, the mechanics of it is still crucial knowledge to keep in the back of your head when building your society. Perhaps you want to ensure the population in one of your states are able to take on Machinist jobs before embarking on a rapid industrialization project there, or perhaps you want to ensure you don’t accidentally enable too much social mobility in a country already prone to uprisings against their true and lawful King.

First, a quick recap. In the Pops dev diary we learned that all Pops have a Profession, which determines their social strata and influences a number of things like wages, political strength, and Interest Group affiliations. In the Buildings dev diary we learned that buildings need Pops of specific Professions to work there in order for them to produce their intended effects on the economy and society. Finally, in the Production Methods dev diary we learned that different Production Methods change the number of Profession positions available in a building. So how do Pops get assigned to these spots?

Our approach here differs a bit from previous games. Victoria 1 and 2 has the concept of a “Pop Type”, a fundamental property of Pops in those games that defines most aspects of their existence - what function they perform in society, what goods they need to survive vs. what goods they desire, what ideologies they espouse, etcetera. Pops in Victoria 2 autonomously change into other types over time depending on their finances and the various needs and aspects of the country. Providing access to luxury goods in your country permits Pops to promote more easily. Generally speaking, higher-tier Pops will provide better bonuses for your country as different Pop Types perform different functions. By manufacturing or importing special goods and educating your population you would turn your simple, backwards Pops into advanced, progressive types in ideal ratios, which maximizes these bonuses to increase your competitive advantage.

Pop Types from Victoria 2: Aristocrats, Artisans, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, Clerks, Craftsmen, Farmers, Laborers, Officers, Slaves, and Soldiers.
poptypes-v2.png

Victoria 3 Pops instead have Professions. These are in some ways similar to “Pop Type”, but the ideal ratios and economic functions of those Professions differ based on the building they’re employed in and the Production Methods activated. The fundamental difference between these two approaches become clear when considering the Bureaucrat Pop Type/Profession in Victoria 2 and 3. In both games, Bureaucrats increase a country’s administrative ability. But in Victoria 2 Pops promote into Bureaucrats independently in relation to the amount of administrative spending the player sets, while in Victoria 3 Pops will only become Bureaucrats if there are available Bureaucrat jobs in Government buildings, usually as a result of the player actively expanding Government Administrations.

Professions in Victoria 3: Academics, Aristocrats, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen (temporary icon; will be changed to be more universally applicable), Clerks, Engineers, Farmers, Laborers, Machinists, Officers, Peasants, Servicemen, Shopkeepers, and Slaves.
professions-v3.png

The latter approach gives the player more control over where these job opportunities are created, and combined with Production Methods cause demographic shifts to have stronger, more localized effects that are easier to predict and understand. It’s also more flexible, permitting the same Profession to cause different effects in different Buildings given different Production Methods. So in Victoria 3 higher-paid Pops don’t by their very nature perform a more valuable societal function than lower-paid Pops - rather, each acts as a crucial part of a Production Method’s ‘recipe’. Each of these roles require the others to be effective - without enough Laborers to shovel coal the engines the Machinists maintain stay dormant, and without seamstresses to work the sewing machines the Shopkeepers don’t have any clothes to sell.

Buildings adjust their wages over time in order to achieve full employment with minimal wage costs. As employment increases, so does the Throughput - the degree by which the building consumes input goods and produces output goods. By the laws of supply and demand, this makes a building less profitable per capita the closer to full employment it gets, so at first blush it might appear irrational for a building to pay more wages just to reduce their margins. But since a “building” does not represent a single factory but rather a whole industrial sector across a large area, and we assume the individual businesses in that sector compete with each other rather than engage in cartel behavior to extort consumers, this adjustment of wages to maximize employment makes sense. However, buildings won’t increase wages due to labor competition if this would cause them to go into deficit, so there’s little point to expanding industries beyond the point where they’re profitable.

Employees are hired into available jobs from the pool of Pops that already exist in the state, but unless they’re unemployed these Pops will already have a job somewhere doing something else. Pops can be hired under two conditions: first, they must be offered a measurably higher wage than the wage they’re currently getting from their current employment. Second, unless they already work as the required Profession in another building, they must also meet the Qualifications of that Profession to change into it.

These Steel Mills don’t pay as well as the Arms Industries, but they do seem to offer better terms than the Textile Mills and resource industries in the same state - with the notable exception of Fishing Wharves, who also need Machinists to service their trawlers.
steel-mills-hiring.PNG

Wages are set by individual buildings in response to market conditions. A building that is losing money will decrease wages until it’s back in the black. A building that has open jobs it can’t seem to fill will raise wages until it either fills the necessary positions or runs out of excess profits. As a result, different buildings in the same state will compete for the available workforce. What this means in practice is that a large population with the necessary Qualifications to perform all the jobs being created in the state will keep wages depressed and profits high. Only when industries are large or advanced enough that they need to compete with each other for a limited pool of qualified workers are wages forced to rise. This rise in wages also comes with increased consumption, which increases demand for goods and services that some of the same buildings may profit from in the end.

A Pop’s Qualifications measure how many of its workforce qualify for certain Professions, and updates monthly depending on how well their current properties match up to the expectations of the Profession in question. For example, at least a basic education level is required to become a Machinist while a much higher one is required to become an Engineer. Conversely, the ability to become an Aristocrat is less about education and more about social class and wealth. Buildings won’t hire Pops who don’t meet the Qualifications for the Profession in question.

These 981 Machinists qualify to become Engineers at a rate of 4.08 per month. Their Literacy is nothing to write home about but they at least meet the cut-off of 20%, aren’t starving to death, and benefit substantially from already working in an adjacent field. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
machinist-quals.PNG

If some Paper Mills required more Engineers and this Pop was being considered, only the amount of qualified Engineers they’ve accumulated so far could be hired. Currently that is only 85 (not shown). If those 85 were all hired, this Pop would then end up with only 896 members left in the workforce of which 0 now qualify to become Engineers. Since all recently hired Engineers used to be Machinists, all 85 retain their Machinist Qualifications. Furthermore, if 512 members of this Pop qualified to be Farmers before the hire (52%), of the 85 of them who were newly promoted to Engineers, 44 of these new Engineers are also qualified to become Farmers.

To be considered for a “job” as Aristocrat a Pop must have at least moderate Wealth, and the more Wealth they have the faster they will develop this potential. Unlike many other jobs Literacy is not a requirement for being accepted into the aristocracy, but an education does make it easier. Bureaucrats and Officers have an easier time becoming Aristocrats than other members of society, while Pops who suffer discrimination on account of their culture have a much harder time. Finally, if a Pop does not meet the minimum Wealth requirement, they actually devolve any prior potential for becoming Aristocrats. This means that down-and-out former nobles robbed of their land and forced to go unemployed or (perish the thought) become a wage laborer will - over time - lose their ability to return to their former social class. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
officers-quals.PNG

Like all Pop attributes, Qualifications follow the Pops as they split, merge, move between buildings, migrate, and die. If you had previously developed a lot of potential Bureaucrats in your country but ran into budgetary problems and had to shut down your schools, over time those Pops who have already developed the Qualifications to become Bureaucrats will die off and not be replaced by newly educated ones. If your Capitalists in a given state had been underpaying their local discriminated employees to the degree that nobody gained the Qualifications to take over for them, and then some of those Capitalists move away to operate a newly opened Iron Mine in the next state over, rather than promoting some of the local discriminated Laborers to the newly opened jobs they will simply leave the spots open (and the mines underproducing) until some qualified Capitalists move in from elsewhere to take over.

Qualifications are entirely moddable by simply providing the computational factors that should go into determining how the value develops each month. If you want to make a mod to split up the Clergymen Profession into individual variants for each Religion in the game, you could make the Imam Profession dependent on the Pop being Sunni or Shi’ite. If you wanted Aristocrat Qualification development to be highly dependent on the amount of unproductive Arable Land in the state the Pop lives in, you could do that. An event option or Decision that makes it faster and easier to educate Engineers but harder to educate Officers for the next 10 years? Absolutely.

A breakdown of all Pops in Lower Egypt that qualify to become Engineers. Of course, any openings will be offered to existing Engineers first, and not all of the remaining qualified Pops would actually be interested in the job - though if it was lucrative enough, perhaps some Aristocrats on a failing Subsistence Farm would consider a career change.
potential-engineers.PNG

The intent of Qualifications is to signal to a player what capacity for employment they have available among any subset of their population. They cannot, for example, conquer a state filled with under-educated people they also legally discriminate against and expect to immediately build up a cutting-edge manufacturing- and trade center there. These efforts will be throttled by their inability to employ the locals into highly qualified positions, meaning they have to wait for members of their already qualified workforce to migrate there from the old country to take on any high-status positions created for them. But by building out their education system, paying Bureaucracy to extend their administrative reach to the new state through incorporation, and changing their Laws to extend citizenship to these new residents, they can start to build this capacity also in the locals.

In summary, Qualifications is the mechanism by which access to education and your stance on discrimination - in addition to many other factors - impact your ability to expand different parts of your society. It is also the mechanism that sorts Pops logically into the economic (and thereby political) niches you carve out as you expand, ensuring your laws and economic conditions inform the social mobility of Pops based on who they are. It’s quite subtle, and you might not even notice it’s there - until you run into the challenges caused by rapid industrialization, mass migration, conquests, colonization, and other drastic population shifts.

That is all for this week! Next Thursday we will finally get into how all this economic activity translates into revenue streams for you, when Martin presents the mechanics governing the Treasury and national debt.
 
  • 218Like
  • 137Love
  • 19
  • 12
  • 2
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
So the rockerfellers, JP Morgan, Carnnige and other trusts and robber barons never engaged in such behavior? thats not going to be modeled?
That's not going to be modelled systemically at least, because it's no fun as a player to lay the tracks and build the infrastructure for a new Steel Mill and have the existing Steel Mill owners decide that production won't be increased because that might lead to them becoming individually less wealthy.
 
  • 22
  • 11
  • 5Like
  • 4
Reactions:
If i conquer, as a christian country, a sunni state, what happens to the clergymen of the older country?
I'd assume a cultural/religious discrimination factor similar to the one for aristocrats, with its strength presumably based on your laws.

So similar to the example of aristocrats in a newly conquered colony, most of them would remain at first, but they would be gradually forced out by your own clergy. (Unless you have sufficient religious tolerance to keep them around.)
 
I wonder, can qualifications be tied to technology?
Like, more machinists can qualify to be engineers in London where the technology is more advanced and the concept of a steam Engine is widely known and accepted than Kairo. Not only being dependent on the literacy and integration, literate people study different things which are effected by the society they live in.
It's not included in the set of factors currently, but it's very easy to add (or mod) in. Will take it into consideration!
 
  • 24Like
  • 11
  • 8Love
Reactions:
Pop Types from Victoria 2: Aristocrats, Artisans, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, Clerks, Craftsmen, Farmers, Laborers, Officers, Slaves, and Soldiers.
View attachment 749045

Victoria 3 Pops instead have Professions. These are in some ways similar to “Pop Type”, but the ideal ratios and economic functions of those Professions differ based on the building they’re employed in and the Production Methods activated. The fundamental difference between these two approaches become clear when considering the Bureaucrat Pop Type/Profession in Victoria 2 and 3. In both games, Bureaucrats increase a country’s administrative ability. But in Victoria 2 Pops promote into Bureaucrats independently in relation to the amount of administrative spending the player sets, while in Victoria 3 Pops will only become Bureaucrats if there are available Bureaucrat jobs in Government buildings, usually as a result of the player actively expanding Government Administrations.

Professions in Victoria 3: Academics, Aristocrats, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen (temporary icon; will be changed to be more universally applicable), Clerks, Engineers, Farmers, Laborers, Machinists, Officers, Peasants, Servicemen, Shopkeepers, and Slaves.
View attachment 749059
From a UI/Immersion perspective, this is a place where I think V2 did it better than V3 looks like it is doing. Having the POPs represented by pictures of people makes them feel more like people, while V3's icons lose that. There's nothing in these icons that indicates that they represent people, and I think that is important to have.
 
  • 13
  • 8
Reactions:
That's not going to be modelled systemically at least, because it's no fun as a player to lay the tracks and build the infrastructure for a new Steel Mill and have the existing Steel Mill owners decide that production won't be increased because that might lead to them becoming individually less wealthy.
when you say Systemically does this mean that the Trusts and the various monopolies, Cartels, and Oligopolies will be modeled in another fashion?
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
when you say Systemically does this mean that the Trusts and the various monopolies, Cartels, and Oligopolies will be modeled in another fashion?
-10% throughput modifier
 
Few questions:
1. What will an unemployed pops ‘profession’ be? Just whatever they were last employed as?
2. Why no artisan profession to simulate cottage industry as in Vicky 2? Is this modelled in another way?
3. Do buildings in the red only reduce wages or do they also lay off workers? The latter would seem to be a better simulation of individual firms represented by ‘the building’ going bust and firms downsizing to reduce costs, which happens more often in the real world than wage cuts.
1. What they were last employed as, yes. This also gives them precedence for any new jobs created of that type in the state.
2. It's modeled in another way.
3. We used to have them do both actually, but the problem with that was that since wage rate is not set by the player but by the building, yet the building size is controllable by the player in the sense that they can pay to expand it, if the player pays money and time to expand a building which then won't hire because with the current wage rate that'd put it into the red (due to increasing demand of input goods / increasing supply of output goods), that's a very unsatisfying experience and leads to a lot of analysis paralysis. It's a much more satisfying experience to expand a building, see building wage rate decrease somewhat, and see some of those employees move into other jobs to make room for poorer employees. With this approach we also don't get the weird downward spirals in the economy where lower supply of Tools due to layoffs leads to lower profit in other manufacturing industries, which in turn leads to layoffs, etc. It sounds cool but it's very annoying when it happens. :)
 
  • 26
  • 8Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
5) No. We have Decrees, and there is a decree to promote social mobility which helps build Professions in a state generally. But there's no "Encourage Profession X" type national focus, as this is driven by the needs of the Buildings.
I hope the authority needed to enact degrees comes from pops/jobs and not flat values from laws (those should be %). Because otherwise you could have the situation where a fully democratic switzerland can cover all its states with decrees, while its neighbour nazi germany can not which would be quite crazy.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I still don't see where are the tailors. which in victoria 2 were represented by the artisans producing fabric.
Honestly I think the shop-keepers are the closest to artisans from V2. So starting industry will tend to employ shopkeepers and maybe labourers, with profits going to shopkeepers. As new production methods become available, the ownership of the industry shifts to capitalists and few/no shopkeepers are employed in production, and maybe switch professions or get jobs in services.

So V2 artisans producing fabric at home => V3 shopkeepers producing fabric in starting-tech fabric industry.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
And yeah, this algorithm is really hard to parse and we don't really expect players to keep these figures in their head - this breakdown is more for auditing purposes than gameplay purposes. If the player wants to ensure they gain more Qualifications for Aristocrats in their population, they should look at the Aristocrat description which will explain the factors in more comprehensible terms, like "Potential rises with Wealth and to a lesser degree by Literacy".
Sure. My main thought with the qualifications is that just saying "Potential rises with Wealth and to a lesser degree by Literacy" is not really a good reflection of how you get high levels of certain qualifications. If you really wanted lots of aristocrat qualified pops then what you want to do is to build plenty of bureaucratic and military buildings and make sure that their emplyees are reasonably well paid. There is an important role to be played by the fact that certain qualifications chain together which is not reflected in the description (and which I was worried about resulting in education being less important since I didn't realise it was multiplicative).

Increasing literacy and wealth will presumably result in a general increase in most types of qualifications and is overall a good idea (economically at least) but if you want a certain type it isn't really useful advice.
 
Are serfs considered slaves or peasants?
Peasants. Victoria 3's definition of a Slave is a person who is wholly owned by another person and can be bought and sold as property. This excludes serfs, most indentured servants, etc who are instead represented as the Profession they're carrying out.
 
  • 32
  • 7Like
Reactions:
So, let's say a country wants to restrict social mobility. If you are a farmer, then you (and your descendants) stay farmers. If you are a soldier, then you (and your descendants) stay soldiers. Could this system model that in some way? What would that look like?
If we wanted to do something like that there's a modifier that can be added to, well, anything: Laws, Institutions, Buildings, via Event options, Decisions, etc that reduces Qualification gain across the board. But typically we assume that the baseline is the lowest possible social mobility, and instead of penalties we apply bonuses to those things that provide better social mobility across the nation. Same effect but has a better feel, especially since Pops having good Qualifications is virtually never a bad thing from the player's perspective - it just gives them more options.
 
  • 15
  • 9Like
Reactions:
3. We used to have them do both actually, but the problem with that was that since wage rate is not set by the player but by the building, yet the building size is controllable by the player in the sense that they can pay to expand it, if the player pays money and time to expand a building which then won't hire because with the current wage rate that'd put it into the red (due to increasing demand of input goods / increasing supply of output goods), that's a very unsatisfying experience and leads to a lot of analysis paralysis. It's a much more satisfying experience to expand a building, see building wage rate decrease somewhat, and see some of those employees move into other jobs to make room for poorer employees. With this approach we also don't get the weird downward spirals in the economy where lower supply of Tools due to layoffs leads to lower profit in other manufacturing industries, which in turn leads to layoffs, etc. It sounds cool but it's very annoying when it happens. :)
So buildings won't engage in any layoffs, just a reduction in wage rate? So how do Pops become unemployed?
 
If we wanted to do something like that there's a modifier that can be added to, well, anything: Laws, Institutions, Buildings, via Event options, Decisions, etc that reduces Qualification gain across the board. But typically we assume that the baseline is the lowest possible social mobility, and instead of penalties we apply bonuses to those things that provide better social mobility across the nation. Same effect but has a better feel, especially since Pops having good Qualifications is virtually never a bad thing from the player's perspective - it just gives them more options.
Awesome! Thanks so much for your response!
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
'...and 74 more items.' This is the same UI problem that CK3 has, except now even more massive. There needs to be a better way to display this information or the amount of critical data that warrants informing the player needs to be cut down.

Victoria 3 is looking more and more like a spreadsheet with a bad UI facade over the top with every new dev diary.
There is a much better way to display this information one level up, where it's aggregated.
Our philosophy is to always aggregate so the player can make good decisions on the right level, but also always provide ways to delve deeper into the raw data on demand.
 
  • 24Like
  • 6Love
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:
What this means in practice is that a large population with the necessary Qualifications to perform all the jobs being created in the state will keep wages depressed and profits high. Only when industries are large or advanced enough that they need to compete with each other for a limited pool of qualified workers are wages forced to rise. This rise in wages also comes with increased consumption, which increases demand for goods and services that some of the same buildings may profit from in the end.
This seems like it leaves some important things out of the simulation. People during the time period were often afraid this would happen, or at least claimed to be when they needed to justify keeping certain kinds of people out, but, empirically, it didn’t. Wages are not lower in cities. You acknowledge that more workers means more customers and more demand, but the economic model seems to focus on portable goods. There seems to be some representation of “shopkeepers” in “urban centers” as a nod to the fact that, in reality, all these workers would be buying lots of things locally and creating jobs in the local economy.

And is a labor movement that negotiates for higher wages in the game?
 
I've got a question
When pops get fired and they have no buildings to work in, and nowhere to move. do they instantly demote to subsistance farmers? Is that the "new" unemployment mechanic? or can they have a profession but not be employed in any building?

the response above answered my question, pops will not get fired by the building they're working in, I guess if they are better paid in a subsistance farm they will take that job instead of working in say, a factory.
so if a factory goes "bankrupt" wages will be so bad the pops would rather work in a subsistance farm?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
So buildings won't engage in any layoffs, just a reduction in wage rate? So how do Pops become unemployed?
Unemployment occurs in instances where some employees leaves and proportionality cannot be easily restored (i.e. a couple of smaller businesses in the sector closed down because a bunch of Engineers went elsewhere, rendering the Machinists, Laborers, and Capitalists temporarily inconvenienced for a few weeks until they can find other employment), when there's inbound migration but insufficient jobs (and/or insufficient Qualifications among the immigrants), and when automation Production Methods are activated that makes a chunk of workforce redundant.
 
  • 19
  • 7Like
  • 3
Reactions:
So buildings won't engage in any layoffs, just a reduction in wage rate? So how do Pops become unemployed?

Buildings will layoff employees of a profession if they can't get enough employees of another profession to achieve the ratio for the current technology. Basically if the "industry" can't hire enough engineers (say), some factories may be forced to shut down and layoff their other staff.

With respect to the latter question, buildings will always aim for proportionality between Professions - if a factory loses all its Engineers and can't promote Machinists or other Professions to take over, it will start letting go of other employees until it returns to proportionality and profitability, and can start competing again to get some of those Engineers back.