• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #11 - Employment and Qualifications

DD11.png


Happy Thursday and welcome to another deep-dive into the guts of Victoria 3’s economic machinery. This week we will be talking about Pop Professions, specifically how and why Pops change Profession. While this is an automatic process, the mechanics of it is still crucial knowledge to keep in the back of your head when building your society. Perhaps you want to ensure the population in one of your states are able to take on Machinist jobs before embarking on a rapid industrialization project there, or perhaps you want to ensure you don’t accidentally enable too much social mobility in a country already prone to uprisings against their true and lawful King.

First, a quick recap. In the Pops dev diary we learned that all Pops have a Profession, which determines their social strata and influences a number of things like wages, political strength, and Interest Group affiliations. In the Buildings dev diary we learned that buildings need Pops of specific Professions to work there in order for them to produce their intended effects on the economy and society. Finally, in the Production Methods dev diary we learned that different Production Methods change the number of Profession positions available in a building. So how do Pops get assigned to these spots?

Our approach here differs a bit from previous games. Victoria 1 and 2 has the concept of a “Pop Type”, a fundamental property of Pops in those games that defines most aspects of their existence - what function they perform in society, what goods they need to survive vs. what goods they desire, what ideologies they espouse, etcetera. Pops in Victoria 2 autonomously change into other types over time depending on their finances and the various needs and aspects of the country. Providing access to luxury goods in your country permits Pops to promote more easily. Generally speaking, higher-tier Pops will provide better bonuses for your country as different Pop Types perform different functions. By manufacturing or importing special goods and educating your population you would turn your simple, backwards Pops into advanced, progressive types in ideal ratios, which maximizes these bonuses to increase your competitive advantage.

Pop Types from Victoria 2: Aristocrats, Artisans, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, Clerks, Craftsmen, Farmers, Laborers, Officers, Slaves, and Soldiers.
poptypes-v2.png

Victoria 3 Pops instead have Professions. These are in some ways similar to “Pop Type”, but the ideal ratios and economic functions of those Professions differ based on the building they’re employed in and the Production Methods activated. The fundamental difference between these two approaches become clear when considering the Bureaucrat Pop Type/Profession in Victoria 2 and 3. In both games, Bureaucrats increase a country’s administrative ability. But in Victoria 2 Pops promote into Bureaucrats independently in relation to the amount of administrative spending the player sets, while in Victoria 3 Pops will only become Bureaucrats if there are available Bureaucrat jobs in Government buildings, usually as a result of the player actively expanding Government Administrations.

Professions in Victoria 3: Academics, Aristocrats, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen (temporary icon; will be changed to be more universally applicable), Clerks, Engineers, Farmers, Laborers, Machinists, Officers, Peasants, Servicemen, Shopkeepers, and Slaves.
professions-v3.png

The latter approach gives the player more control over where these job opportunities are created, and combined with Production Methods cause demographic shifts to have stronger, more localized effects that are easier to predict and understand. It’s also more flexible, permitting the same Profession to cause different effects in different Buildings given different Production Methods. So in Victoria 3 higher-paid Pops don’t by their very nature perform a more valuable societal function than lower-paid Pops - rather, each acts as a crucial part of a Production Method’s ‘recipe’. Each of these roles require the others to be effective - without enough Laborers to shovel coal the engines the Machinists maintain stay dormant, and without seamstresses to work the sewing machines the Shopkeepers don’t have any clothes to sell.

Buildings adjust their wages over time in order to achieve full employment with minimal wage costs. As employment increases, so does the Throughput - the degree by which the building consumes input goods and produces output goods. By the laws of supply and demand, this makes a building less profitable per capita the closer to full employment it gets, so at first blush it might appear irrational for a building to pay more wages just to reduce their margins. But since a “building” does not represent a single factory but rather a whole industrial sector across a large area, and we assume the individual businesses in that sector compete with each other rather than engage in cartel behavior to extort consumers, this adjustment of wages to maximize employment makes sense. However, buildings won’t increase wages due to labor competition if this would cause them to go into deficit, so there’s little point to expanding industries beyond the point where they’re profitable.

Employees are hired into available jobs from the pool of Pops that already exist in the state, but unless they’re unemployed these Pops will already have a job somewhere doing something else. Pops can be hired under two conditions: first, they must be offered a measurably higher wage than the wage they’re currently getting from their current employment. Second, unless they already work as the required Profession in another building, they must also meet the Qualifications of that Profession to change into it.

These Steel Mills don’t pay as well as the Arms Industries, but they do seem to offer better terms than the Textile Mills and resource industries in the same state - with the notable exception of Fishing Wharves, who also need Machinists to service their trawlers.
steel-mills-hiring.PNG

Wages are set by individual buildings in response to market conditions. A building that is losing money will decrease wages until it’s back in the black. A building that has open jobs it can’t seem to fill will raise wages until it either fills the necessary positions or runs out of excess profits. As a result, different buildings in the same state will compete for the available workforce. What this means in practice is that a large population with the necessary Qualifications to perform all the jobs being created in the state will keep wages depressed and profits high. Only when industries are large or advanced enough that they need to compete with each other for a limited pool of qualified workers are wages forced to rise. This rise in wages also comes with increased consumption, which increases demand for goods and services that some of the same buildings may profit from in the end.

A Pop’s Qualifications measure how many of its workforce qualify for certain Professions, and updates monthly depending on how well their current properties match up to the expectations of the Profession in question. For example, at least a basic education level is required to become a Machinist while a much higher one is required to become an Engineer. Conversely, the ability to become an Aristocrat is less about education and more about social class and wealth. Buildings won’t hire Pops who don’t meet the Qualifications for the Profession in question.

These 981 Machinists qualify to become Engineers at a rate of 4.08 per month. Their Literacy is nothing to write home about but they at least meet the cut-off of 20%, aren’t starving to death, and benefit substantially from already working in an adjacent field. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
machinist-quals.PNG

If some Paper Mills required more Engineers and this Pop was being considered, only the amount of qualified Engineers they’ve accumulated so far could be hired. Currently that is only 85 (not shown). If those 85 were all hired, this Pop would then end up with only 896 members left in the workforce of which 0 now qualify to become Engineers. Since all recently hired Engineers used to be Machinists, all 85 retain their Machinist Qualifications. Furthermore, if 512 members of this Pop qualified to be Farmers before the hire (52%), of the 85 of them who were newly promoted to Engineers, 44 of these new Engineers are also qualified to become Farmers.

To be considered for a “job” as Aristocrat a Pop must have at least moderate Wealth, and the more Wealth they have the faster they will develop this potential. Unlike many other jobs Literacy is not a requirement for being accepted into the aristocracy, but an education does make it easier. Bureaucrats and Officers have an easier time becoming Aristocrats than other members of society, while Pops who suffer discrimination on account of their culture have a much harder time. Finally, if a Pop does not meet the minimum Wealth requirement, they actually devolve any prior potential for becoming Aristocrats. This means that down-and-out former nobles robbed of their land and forced to go unemployed or (perish the thought) become a wage laborer will - over time - lose their ability to return to their former social class. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
officers-quals.PNG

Like all Pop attributes, Qualifications follow the Pops as they split, merge, move between buildings, migrate, and die. If you had previously developed a lot of potential Bureaucrats in your country but ran into budgetary problems and had to shut down your schools, over time those Pops who have already developed the Qualifications to become Bureaucrats will die off and not be replaced by newly educated ones. If your Capitalists in a given state had been underpaying their local discriminated employees to the degree that nobody gained the Qualifications to take over for them, and then some of those Capitalists move away to operate a newly opened Iron Mine in the next state over, rather than promoting some of the local discriminated Laborers to the newly opened jobs they will simply leave the spots open (and the mines underproducing) until some qualified Capitalists move in from elsewhere to take over.

Qualifications are entirely moddable by simply providing the computational factors that should go into determining how the value develops each month. If you want to make a mod to split up the Clergymen Profession into individual variants for each Religion in the game, you could make the Imam Profession dependent on the Pop being Sunni or Shi’ite. If you wanted Aristocrat Qualification development to be highly dependent on the amount of unproductive Arable Land in the state the Pop lives in, you could do that. An event option or Decision that makes it faster and easier to educate Engineers but harder to educate Officers for the next 10 years? Absolutely.

A breakdown of all Pops in Lower Egypt that qualify to become Engineers. Of course, any openings will be offered to existing Engineers first, and not all of the remaining qualified Pops would actually be interested in the job - though if it was lucrative enough, perhaps some Aristocrats on a failing Subsistence Farm would consider a career change.
potential-engineers.PNG

The intent of Qualifications is to signal to a player what capacity for employment they have available among any subset of their population. They cannot, for example, conquer a state filled with under-educated people they also legally discriminate against and expect to immediately build up a cutting-edge manufacturing- and trade center there. These efforts will be throttled by their inability to employ the locals into highly qualified positions, meaning they have to wait for members of their already qualified workforce to migrate there from the old country to take on any high-status positions created for them. But by building out their education system, paying Bureaucracy to extend their administrative reach to the new state through incorporation, and changing their Laws to extend citizenship to these new residents, they can start to build this capacity also in the locals.

In summary, Qualifications is the mechanism by which access to education and your stance on discrimination - in addition to many other factors - impact your ability to expand different parts of your society. It is also the mechanism that sorts Pops logically into the economic (and thereby political) niches you carve out as you expand, ensuring your laws and economic conditions inform the social mobility of Pops based on who they are. It’s quite subtle, and you might not even notice it’s there - until you run into the challenges caused by rapid industrialization, mass migration, conquests, colonization, and other drastic population shifts.

That is all for this week! Next Thursday we will finally get into how all this economic activity translates into revenue streams for you, when Martin presents the mechanics governing the Treasury and national debt.
 
  • 218Like
  • 137Love
  • 19
  • 12
  • 2
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
Unemployment occurs in instances where some employees leaves and proportionality cannot be easily restored (i.e. a couple of smaller businesses in the sector closed down because a bunch of Engineers went elsewhere, rendering the Machinists, Laborers, and Capitalists temporarily inconvenienced for a few weeks until they can find other employment), when there's inbound migration but insufficient jobs (and/or insufficient Qualifications among the immigrants), and when automation Production Methods are activated that makes a chunk of workforce redundant.
Can there be unemployment if a resource runs into such a shortage that it stops being available altogether? (As opposed to just being more expensive.)
 
Yeah, you are right. They are definitely a bit hard to read when presented in the context of tooltips.
I like the style though (when they are big) maybe a simple version for the small tooltip graphics? maybe adding a colour background to distinguish them easier?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Honestly I think the shop-keepers are the closest to artisans from V2. So starting industry will tend to employ shopkeepers and maybe labourers, with profits going to shopkeepers. As new production methods become available, the ownership of the industry shifts to capitalists and few/no shopkeepers are employed in production, and maybe switch professions or get jobs in services.

So V2 artisans producing fabric at home => V3 shopkeepers producing fabric in starting-tech fabric industry.
I have a huge problem with the lack of artisans in victoria 3.

There was a civil war in my country literally called the war of the artisans, because they (tailors, carpenters, potters) looked actively for the revocation of the Mallarino-Bidlack's treaty which lowered the tariffs from the USA/UK goods. And I'm pretty sure artisans were a huge political force in many countries at beginning of the industrial revolution.

And now with the artisans removed, this scenario can't be modelled.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
We'll get more into this in a couple of weeks but real quick:

1, 2) Pops who don't have the Qualifications for a Profession cannot get hired for that Profession. All Profession changes occur at point of hire, driven by market forces.
3) It's all based on the requirements of the Buildings as defined by their active Production Methods.
4) Only if those factories are more profitable (as they tend to be) and therefore capable of paying higher wages, AND the rural population qualify.
5) No. We have Decrees, and there is a decree to promote social mobility which helps build Professions in a state generally. But there's no "Encourage Profession X" type national focus, as this is driven by the needs of the Buildings.
Oh ok cool
From a UI/Immersion perspective, this is a place where I think V2 did it better than V3 looks like it is doing. Having the POPs represented by pictures of people makes them feel more like people, while V3's icons lose that. There's nothing in these icons that indicates that they represent people, and I think that is important to have.
something to remember is that players have a better time remembering icons by their outline. It's something that was being picked up by the early 2000s and was widely known when Valve talked about it when designing Team Fortress 2
 
The Trade Unions is an Interest Group present in every country. It tends to be weak at game start but often become very relevant in industrializing nations.

Regarding Strikes, they're present in the game and you will learn more about them later!
Since every single nation has Trade Unions (even traditionalist countries at start), is it safe to assume that all countries have the exact same IG catagories (i.e. every country will have some flavor of Intellectual, Devout, and so on). Is it possible for various countries/tags to have more/less interest groups than others? Or ones that appear at different times/conditions?

I know this is a IG question instead of a qualifications one, but I have been wondering about this for a while.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
There was a civil war in my country literally called the war of the artisans, because they (tailors, carpenters, potters) looked actively for the revocation of the Mallarino-Bidlack's treaty which lowered the tariffs from the USA/UK goods. And I'm pretty sure artisans were a huge political force in many countries at beginning of the industrial revolution.

I think this sort of thing could still happen. At the start of the game, in most countries, shopkeepers would own and operate most of the existing industries. They will probably have an aligned interest group. It would make sense for that interest group to be against open trade and potentially have a lot of sway (and the potential to trigger a civil war if powerful enough and angry enough). Also, if the shopkeepers suffer a great decrease in wealth due to industrialisation or foreign competition, they can become radicals, which can lead to more unrest.
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Peasants. Victoria 3's definition of a Slave is a person who is wholly owned by another person and can be bought and sold as property. This excludes serfs, most indentured servants, etc who are instead represented as the Profession they're carrying out.
Will it be impossible/difficult for peasants to gain qualifications in countries with serfdom then? To simulate how they were bound to the land.
 
From a UI/Immersion perspective, this is a place where I think V2 did it better than V3 looks like it is doing. Having the POPs represented by pictures of people makes them feel more like people, while V3's icons lose that. There's nothing in these icons that indicates that they represent people, and I think that is important to have.
The Pop icons in V2 were great for this, agreed. The reasons we didn't use this approach in V3 are threefold:
1) Static icons that look like people could not possibly even begin to represent the diversity of people all around the world. I find V2's icons to be immersive when I play Britain, but pretty immersion-shattering when I play Bhutan.
2) On the other hand we don't want different icons for different cultures, either, since the point of an "icon" is to be instantly recognizable even between different game sessions.
3) We have the technological luxury of actually being able to display each Pop as a rendered portrait of a unique person, which reduces the need to use Profession icons to give you a sense of Pop personhood by approximately 97%.
 
Last edited:
  • 52Like
  • 8
  • 5
  • 4Haha
Reactions:
I think this sort of thing could still happen. At the start of the game, in most countries, shopkeepers would own and operate most of the existing industries. They will probably have an aligned interest group. It would make sense for that interest group to be against open trade and potentially have a lot of sway (and the potential to trigger a civil war if powerful enough and angry enough). Also, if the shopkeepers suffer a great decrease in wealth due to industrialisation or foreign competition, they can become radicals, which can lead to more unrest.
this DD leaves clear that shopkeepers are not those producing the goods. shopkeepers are traders/peddlers, people which benefits with lower tariffs because they care just about selling cheaper goods, shopkeepers don't care if the goods are foreigners.

there is also this forced thing with the interest groups because the only real issue for artisans was the protectionism, now with the interest groups they also will care about atheism and jingoism just because the new mechanics.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Is it possible for various countries/tags to have more/less interest groups than others? Or ones that appear at different times/conditions?
They've mentioned some modified IGs in the past, e.g., Plantation Owners for the US instead of generic Landowners. I'm not sure if these actually have different rules (political views, membership, etc.) or if the differences are just cosmetic.
 
Can there be unemployment if a resource runs into such a shortage that it stops being available altogether? (As opposed to just being more expensive.)
This will make the building extremely unprofitable which will cause it to dump its wages. This will cause the lowest-paid employees to return to being Peasants on Subsistence Farms or just migrate away. It can also cause unemployment if a bunch of Laborers leave, nobody else comes in to replace them on account of the low wages offered, and Pops of other Professions are fired to restore proportionality.
 
  • 14Like
  • 8
Reactions:
This will make the building extremely unprofitable which will cause it to dump its wages. This will cause the lowest-paid employees to return to being Peasants on Subsistence Farms or just migrate away. It can also cause unemployment if a bunch of Laborers leave, nobody else comes in to replace them on account of the low wages offered, and Pops of other Professions are fired to restore proportionality.
Uh oh, sounds like Chinese Artisans will crash the goods price of one item, millions switch to another, cause a massive price adjustment (and possibly crash again).
 
This will make the building extremely unprofitable which will cause it to dump its wages. This will cause the lowest-paid employees to return to being Peasants on Subsistence Farms or just migrate away. It can also cause unemployment if a bunch of Laborers leave, nobody else comes in to replace them on account of the low wages offered, and Pops of other Professions are fired to restore proportionality.
Uh oh, sounds like Chinese Artisans will crash the goods price of one item, millions switch to another, cause a massive price adjustment (and possibly crash again).
 
Pops can qualify as multiple professions. In the example given,


44 of the Engineer pops are qualified to be both Farmers and Machinists.

So in your example, part of the pop might be qualified as both engineer and aristocrat, and will take up whichever job opens up first (or offers more competitive pay).
the question was whether a pop can add new qualifications simultaneously, not whether it already carries around multiple qualifications in its pool. From the screenshots posted it's not clear whether the pop can add +4 to machinists and +2 to aristocrats this same month, or whether it fills its pool of qualified machinists first and then starts to fill aristocrats.
 
the question was whether a pop can add new qualifications simultaneously, not whether it already carries around multiple qualifications in its pool. From the screenshots posted it's not clear whether the pop can add +4 to machinists and +2 to aristocrats this same month, or whether it fills its pool of qualified machinists first and then starts to fill aristocrats.
Qualifications for all Professions are updated for each Pop once per month. There's no queue where they have to fill up Qualifications for one Profession before moving onto another.
 
  • 13Like
  • 11
Reactions:
Very complicated

Hmmm is it though?

In previous Vics, you tried to provide so that pops could buy more goods, and they would promote. A weird way to see social mobility. I never saw it as particularly realistic.

Now, you do your best to create job openings. I hope we still have the distincrion of being able to do it directly on interventionist govts and only indirectly on liberal ones. Once the opening is there, pops with the most potential, be it literacy, funds or whatever, will ascend to take the opening. That seems more on the mark.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Sure they're multiplicative in terms of the calculation for what to add, but you also need to consider that the final resulting number is an additive factor, and that the final result is then being multiplied by a separate factor (the amount of workforce multiplier) afterward. Given that, the number for the current profession is better off shown as being added/subtracted instead of multiplied to maintain the consistency in how the POP attribute factors are displayed. We also don't know if they're straight up whole multipliers or if there are some POP attributes that only calculate based on certain other attributes and not the whole (such as the discrimination factor being a multiplier based on, which makes it even more important to maintain consistency in how it's displayed.

And considering you figured out the calculation was based on a multiplier of some other attributes pretty easily, it really doesn't seem to add confusion or be less readable with it presented as an additive and not a multiplier.
Id disagree "pretty easily", I only figured it out because i wondered where the number came from, then divided that number by the sum of the others, and it came out 4. then did the same for the other, and came out 4 as well. Only then I realized its a multiplicative factor. It was not seen at a glance, I had to try to figure it out.

And I think It would be clearer if it would be displayed like this:
Each month +0.30 due to
1.21 from pop attributes:
From wealth +2.00
Fromliteracy +0.42
From officer x5
From discrimination x0.1
x0.25 from size of 250

or maybe
Each month +0.30 due to
2.42 from pop attributes:
From wealth +2.00
Fromliteracy +0.42
x5 from officer
x0.1 From discrimination
x0.25 from size of 250
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions: