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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #11 - Employment and Qualifications

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Happy Thursday and welcome to another deep-dive into the guts of Victoria 3’s economic machinery. This week we will be talking about Pop Professions, specifically how and why Pops change Profession. While this is an automatic process, the mechanics of it is still crucial knowledge to keep in the back of your head when building your society. Perhaps you want to ensure the population in one of your states are able to take on Machinist jobs before embarking on a rapid industrialization project there, or perhaps you want to ensure you don’t accidentally enable too much social mobility in a country already prone to uprisings against their true and lawful King.

First, a quick recap. In the Pops dev diary we learned that all Pops have a Profession, which determines their social strata and influences a number of things like wages, political strength, and Interest Group affiliations. In the Buildings dev diary we learned that buildings need Pops of specific Professions to work there in order for them to produce their intended effects on the economy and society. Finally, in the Production Methods dev diary we learned that different Production Methods change the number of Profession positions available in a building. So how do Pops get assigned to these spots?

Our approach here differs a bit from previous games. Victoria 1 and 2 has the concept of a “Pop Type”, a fundamental property of Pops in those games that defines most aspects of their existence - what function they perform in society, what goods they need to survive vs. what goods they desire, what ideologies they espouse, etcetera. Pops in Victoria 2 autonomously change into other types over time depending on their finances and the various needs and aspects of the country. Providing access to luxury goods in your country permits Pops to promote more easily. Generally speaking, higher-tier Pops will provide better bonuses for your country as different Pop Types perform different functions. By manufacturing or importing special goods and educating your population you would turn your simple, backwards Pops into advanced, progressive types in ideal ratios, which maximizes these bonuses to increase your competitive advantage.

Pop Types from Victoria 2: Aristocrats, Artisans, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, Clerks, Craftsmen, Farmers, Laborers, Officers, Slaves, and Soldiers.
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Victoria 3 Pops instead have Professions. These are in some ways similar to “Pop Type”, but the ideal ratios and economic functions of those Professions differ based on the building they’re employed in and the Production Methods activated. The fundamental difference between these two approaches become clear when considering the Bureaucrat Pop Type/Profession in Victoria 2 and 3. In both games, Bureaucrats increase a country’s administrative ability. But in Victoria 2 Pops promote into Bureaucrats independently in relation to the amount of administrative spending the player sets, while in Victoria 3 Pops will only become Bureaucrats if there are available Bureaucrat jobs in Government buildings, usually as a result of the player actively expanding Government Administrations.

Professions in Victoria 3: Academics, Aristocrats, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen (temporary icon; will be changed to be more universally applicable), Clerks, Engineers, Farmers, Laborers, Machinists, Officers, Peasants, Servicemen, Shopkeepers, and Slaves.
professions-v3.png

The latter approach gives the player more control over where these job opportunities are created, and combined with Production Methods cause demographic shifts to have stronger, more localized effects that are easier to predict and understand. It’s also more flexible, permitting the same Profession to cause different effects in different Buildings given different Production Methods. So in Victoria 3 higher-paid Pops don’t by their very nature perform a more valuable societal function than lower-paid Pops - rather, each acts as a crucial part of a Production Method’s ‘recipe’. Each of these roles require the others to be effective - without enough Laborers to shovel coal the engines the Machinists maintain stay dormant, and without seamstresses to work the sewing machines the Shopkeepers don’t have any clothes to sell.

Buildings adjust their wages over time in order to achieve full employment with minimal wage costs. As employment increases, so does the Throughput - the degree by which the building consumes input goods and produces output goods. By the laws of supply and demand, this makes a building less profitable per capita the closer to full employment it gets, so at first blush it might appear irrational for a building to pay more wages just to reduce their margins. But since a “building” does not represent a single factory but rather a whole industrial sector across a large area, and we assume the individual businesses in that sector compete with each other rather than engage in cartel behavior to extort consumers, this adjustment of wages to maximize employment makes sense. However, buildings won’t increase wages due to labor competition if this would cause them to go into deficit, so there’s little point to expanding industries beyond the point where they’re profitable.

Employees are hired into available jobs from the pool of Pops that already exist in the state, but unless they’re unemployed these Pops will already have a job somewhere doing something else. Pops can be hired under two conditions: first, they must be offered a measurably higher wage than the wage they’re currently getting from their current employment. Second, unless they already work as the required Profession in another building, they must also meet the Qualifications of that Profession to change into it.

These Steel Mills don’t pay as well as the Arms Industries, but they do seem to offer better terms than the Textile Mills and resource industries in the same state - with the notable exception of Fishing Wharves, who also need Machinists to service their trawlers.
steel-mills-hiring.PNG

Wages are set by individual buildings in response to market conditions. A building that is losing money will decrease wages until it’s back in the black. A building that has open jobs it can’t seem to fill will raise wages until it either fills the necessary positions or runs out of excess profits. As a result, different buildings in the same state will compete for the available workforce. What this means in practice is that a large population with the necessary Qualifications to perform all the jobs being created in the state will keep wages depressed and profits high. Only when industries are large or advanced enough that they need to compete with each other for a limited pool of qualified workers are wages forced to rise. This rise in wages also comes with increased consumption, which increases demand for goods and services that some of the same buildings may profit from in the end.

A Pop’s Qualifications measure how many of its workforce qualify for certain Professions, and updates monthly depending on how well their current properties match up to the expectations of the Profession in question. For example, at least a basic education level is required to become a Machinist while a much higher one is required to become an Engineer. Conversely, the ability to become an Aristocrat is less about education and more about social class and wealth. Buildings won’t hire Pops who don’t meet the Qualifications for the Profession in question.

These 981 Machinists qualify to become Engineers at a rate of 4.08 per month. Their Literacy is nothing to write home about but they at least meet the cut-off of 20%, aren’t starving to death, and benefit substantially from already working in an adjacent field. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
machinist-quals.PNG

If some Paper Mills required more Engineers and this Pop was being considered, only the amount of qualified Engineers they’ve accumulated so far could be hired. Currently that is only 85 (not shown). If those 85 were all hired, this Pop would then end up with only 896 members left in the workforce of which 0 now qualify to become Engineers. Since all recently hired Engineers used to be Machinists, all 85 retain their Machinist Qualifications. Furthermore, if 512 members of this Pop qualified to be Farmers before the hire (52%), of the 85 of them who were newly promoted to Engineers, 44 of these new Engineers are also qualified to become Farmers.

To be considered for a “job” as Aristocrat a Pop must have at least moderate Wealth, and the more Wealth they have the faster they will develop this potential. Unlike many other jobs Literacy is not a requirement for being accepted into the aristocracy, but an education does make it easier. Bureaucrats and Officers have an easier time becoming Aristocrats than other members of society, while Pops who suffer discrimination on account of their culture have a much harder time. Finally, if a Pop does not meet the minimum Wealth requirement, they actually devolve any prior potential for becoming Aristocrats. This means that down-and-out former nobles robbed of their land and forced to go unemployed or (perish the thought) become a wage laborer will - over time - lose their ability to return to their former social class. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
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Like all Pop attributes, Qualifications follow the Pops as they split, merge, move between buildings, migrate, and die. If you had previously developed a lot of potential Bureaucrats in your country but ran into budgetary problems and had to shut down your schools, over time those Pops who have already developed the Qualifications to become Bureaucrats will die off and not be replaced by newly educated ones. If your Capitalists in a given state had been underpaying their local discriminated employees to the degree that nobody gained the Qualifications to take over for them, and then some of those Capitalists move away to operate a newly opened Iron Mine in the next state over, rather than promoting some of the local discriminated Laborers to the newly opened jobs they will simply leave the spots open (and the mines underproducing) until some qualified Capitalists move in from elsewhere to take over.

Qualifications are entirely moddable by simply providing the computational factors that should go into determining how the value develops each month. If you want to make a mod to split up the Clergymen Profession into individual variants for each Religion in the game, you could make the Imam Profession dependent on the Pop being Sunni or Shi’ite. If you wanted Aristocrat Qualification development to be highly dependent on the amount of unproductive Arable Land in the state the Pop lives in, you could do that. An event option or Decision that makes it faster and easier to educate Engineers but harder to educate Officers for the next 10 years? Absolutely.

A breakdown of all Pops in Lower Egypt that qualify to become Engineers. Of course, any openings will be offered to existing Engineers first, and not all of the remaining qualified Pops would actually be interested in the job - though if it was lucrative enough, perhaps some Aristocrats on a failing Subsistence Farm would consider a career change.
potential-engineers.PNG

The intent of Qualifications is to signal to a player what capacity for employment they have available among any subset of their population. They cannot, for example, conquer a state filled with under-educated people they also legally discriminate against and expect to immediately build up a cutting-edge manufacturing- and trade center there. These efforts will be throttled by their inability to employ the locals into highly qualified positions, meaning they have to wait for members of their already qualified workforce to migrate there from the old country to take on any high-status positions created for them. But by building out their education system, paying Bureaucracy to extend their administrative reach to the new state through incorporation, and changing their Laws to extend citizenship to these new residents, they can start to build this capacity also in the locals.

In summary, Qualifications is the mechanism by which access to education and your stance on discrimination - in addition to many other factors - impact your ability to expand different parts of your society. It is also the mechanism that sorts Pops logically into the economic (and thereby political) niches you carve out as you expand, ensuring your laws and economic conditions inform the social mobility of Pops based on who they are. It’s quite subtle, and you might not even notice it’s there - until you run into the challenges caused by rapid industrialization, mass migration, conquests, colonization, and other drastic population shifts.

That is all for this week! Next Thursday we will finally get into how all this economic activity translates into revenue streams for you, when Martin presents the mechanics governing the Treasury and national debt.
 
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Some of these mechanics seem to represent only a capitalistic, free wage market. Will cooperative or command economies be treated any differently, especially with the competition part and how they employ people?
Great question! Currently there's no direct impact from the Command Economy Law on Qualifications or how Pops are preferentially sorted when hiring them. Qualifications is best thought of as a mishmash of "could this Pop literally carry out this particular Profession, given their current attributes" and "would other Pops in the country actually hire this Pop for this Profession, given their current attributes". The first part of that equation doesn't really change under Command Economy or cooperative forms of economic organization - you absolutely need a certain level of education to become an Academic or Engineer, and the greater the number of people who know how to read and write the greater the chance one of them will have the talents and tendencies to perform those jobs well. As for the second part... I'm not sure it'd make a difference, either! People tend to be, well, people, regardless of economic system, and people have biases about who they think would be a credible farmboy or clerk or military officer. So it's entirely possible Laws like those will end up making a difference to Qualification calculations before Victoria 3 is released, these numbers and factors aren't final, but even if so it probably won't make a huge impact.

What does change the equations quite a bit is more egalitarian access to the factors that produce Qualifications. In a liberal and non-discriminatory society, with a public school system and low wealth disparity, Pops will accumulate Qualifications a lot more equally on account of having more similar properties than in a discriminatory and stratified society.
 
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The latter. There is a slight bias to choose the illiterate members of the Pop when deaths are resolved, which could either represent the fact that the older members of your population tends to be more likely to be illiterate, or that they couldn't read the warning labels on the factory floor, take your pick. But if a Pop's education access decreases below their current Literacy level it doesn't matter how large that bias is, net literacy rate will still go down.
Is it possible to mod in a primitive low resolution age pyramid? It think would be so cool, see the effect of war on the pyramid, draft soldiers from the appropiate age group, giving young people more throughput in physical jobs, giving old people more wage and throughput in non physical jobs. Very highly educated nations suffer from low birthrate (maybe not in the scope of the timeframe). The possibilites are endless.
 
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View attachment 749044


The intent of Qualifications is to signal to a player what capacity for employment they have available among any subset of their population. They cannot, for example, conquer a state filled with under-educated people they also legally discriminate against and expect to immediately build up a cutting-edge manufacturing- and trade center there. These efforts will be throttled by their inability to employ the locals into highly qualified positions, meaning they have to wait for members of their already qualified workforce to migrate there from the old country to take on any high-status positions created for them. But by building out their education system, paying Bureaucracy to extend their administrative reach to the new state through incorporation, and changing their Laws to extend citizenship to these new residents, they can start to build this capacity also in the locals.
I quite like this, since it showcases the incentives colonial powers historically had to make economic operations in their colonies exploitative as all hell- something a lot of games fail to show.

In most other strategy games, if you're a European empire and want to build up an economic base in e.g a conquered populous province in Nigeria than you just pay a lump sum to slap down an iron mill or whatever, tank the -whatever% debuff from "non-accepted culture", and now both you and the conquered locals are wholesomely enjoying the benefits of the industrial development.

In reality, there's probably near zero locals actually qualified to run an iron mill, so to employ them you'd need to also spend a whole bunch of time and money educating them-so you have incentive to bus in educated people from the metropole and leaving the locals screwed over, leading to lots of conflict- not to mention that educating the 'undesirables' would piss off powerful political groups. And it sounds like Vic3 will do a good job of capturing these dark incentives to treat conquered populations poorly.
 
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Will there be unrest from pops with a lot of workers ready to promote to a profession higher in the social hierarchy, but can't because there are no openings? Will different professions be more or less desirable, and if so how is that determined?
 
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What does change the equations quite a bit is more egalitarian access to the factors that produce Qualifications. In a liberal and non-discriminatory society, with a public school system and low wealth disparity, Pops will accumulate Qualifications a lot more equally on account of having more similar properties than in a discriminatory and stratified society.

Are the wages for each profession at a building set based on the market for that profession? I'm thinking if there is a shortage of engineers, maybe engineer wages get bid up a lot, opening up a big gulf between engineer wages and labourer wages. Does a command economy society have a tool for pushing back against that effect, in order to keep wages across different professions in a narrower band?

Edit: A somewhat related question: does discrimination affect actual wages paid once a pop gets a job, or just the accumulation of qualifications for jobs?
 
That the thing. They are multiplicative factors, but the problem is that they are shown as additive factors. If it's an additive factor in reality if one changes, the other should not. In this case it won't work like that, because the bonus from being an officer is always 4 times larger than the sum of the two other factors (literacy and wealth). If wealth increases, the officer bonus will increase as well.

If it was shown as a multiplicative factor, as it is, it will be less confusing, since the wealth increasing won't increase the other, it will still be a x5 multiplier.
Sure they're multiplicative in terms of the calculation for what to add, but you also need to consider that the final resulting number is an additive factor, and that the final result is then being multiplied by a separate factor (the amount of workforce multiplier) afterward. Given that, the number for the current profession is better off shown as being added/subtracted instead of multiplied to maintain the consistency in how the POP attribute factors are displayed. We also don't know if they're straight up whole multipliers or if there are some POP attributes that only calculate based on certain other attributes and not the whole (such as the discrimination factor being a multiplier based on, which makes it even more important to maintain consistency in how it's displayed.

And considering you figured out the calculation was based on a multiplier of some other attributes pretty easily, it really doesn't seem to add confusion or be less readable with it presented as an additive and not a multiplier.
 
Obviously you are the ones who have a feel for how this is balanced but I am shocked that the numbers seen there are so weighted to consider current employment over everything else. I mean for aristocrats wealth is contributing 0.1 per point, literacy is 0.01 per point and being officers is giving 9.71. So pops with wealth of 80 (insanely high) and literacy of 100% would between those things have as much contribution as just the factor from being an officer. And it is even moreconcerning for other job types which need actual skills.
Seems like it will make getting a population with the qualifications you need mainly just dependant on having the more basic pops of that same type (machinists to engineers, officers to aristocrats, shopkeepers to capitalists etc).
That seems unfortunate, a population with poor education (even if it is 20%) but lots of basic factory workers should only produce a tiny fraction of the engineers that one with high education can, same for shopkeepers to capitalists. The skills are not that transferable and they represent very different kinds of work and economic systems.
Good catch! Factors and values are very work-in-progress, and the impact from current Profession is indeed inflated at the moment compared to where it should be.
Having said that, it's not necessarily the case that having Wealth 20 means that every point of Wealth provides 0.1 to the algorithm. In the case of Aristocrats, the algorithm currently looks like this:
- requires Wealth > 10 to be positive at all, otherwise reduce by -2
- add ( Wealth - 10 ) / 5
- add literacy rate
- if Officers or Bureaucrats, multiply the current tally by 5 (this is the part that will be nerfed, likely to 2 or 3)
- if not culturally accepted, reduce by 90%

So a well-to-do, culturally accepted Clerk with Wealth 40 and Literacy 80% would gain a base factor of +6.8 to their Aristocrat Qualifications, which is a very respectable figure without already being one of the two preferred types.

And yeah, this algorithm is really hard to parse and we don't really expect players to keep these figures in their head - this breakdown is more for auditing purposes than gameplay purposes. If the player wants to ensure they gain more Qualifications for Aristocrats in their population, they should look at the Aristocrat description which will explain the factors in more comprehensible terms, like "Potential rises with Wealth and to a lesser degree by Literacy".
 
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I see that the steel mills are promoting machinists and engineers from qualified pops, but losing engineers to the war industry too quickly

So if the steel mills are gaining machinists but losing engineers that will make their production method 'recipe' stop working as well. So then they'll raise wages for engineers eventually? Do buildings raise wages for different jobs at different rates?

I hope you'll be able to prevent the systems from locking up, for example having a factory lose all its engineers and then have their budget deep in the red on account of inefficient machinists still drawing wages.
Buildings have a general "wage rate" and Professions have a wage weight that determines how large of a multiple of that rate they should get. So wages paid out are always proportional based on those weights. A building that needs more Engineers and finds it can't attract them based on their low wage rate will raise the wage rate generally, not only for Engineers. The latter would be cool but there's so many moving parts already - floating wages for each individual Profession in each building is the stuff of designer nightmares. Maybe one day!

With respect to the latter question, buildings will always aim for proportionality between Professions - if a factory loses all its Engineers and can't promote Machinists or other Professions to take over, it will start letting go of other employees until it returns to proportionality and profitability, and can start competing again to get some of those Engineers back.
 
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Ok, if the pops now have professions and not types then does that mean:

1) Pops who don't have the correct type for a profession have maluses?

2) Does that mean that education facilities promote pop types before they enter the workforce if you have it?

3) Is there a cap as with Victoria 2? (5% for soldiers, 2% for officers, 4% for clergy etc.)

4) Does urbanization mechanic encourage pops to move into these factories from the rural countryside?

5) Do national focuses work the same way they did in Vic 2?

Thanks
We'll get more into this in a couple of weeks but real quick:

1, 2) Pops who don't have the Qualifications for a Profession cannot get hired for that Profession. All Profession changes occur at point of hire, driven by market forces.
3) It's all based on the requirements of the Buildings as defined by their active Production Methods.
4) Only if those factories are more profitable (as they tend to be) and therefore capable of paying higher wages, AND the rural population qualify.
5) No. We have Decrees, and there is a decree to promote social mobility which helps build Qualifications in a state generally. But there's no "Encourage Profession X" type national focus, as this is driven by the needs of the Buildings.
 
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Great question! Currently there's no direct impact from the Command Economy Law on Qualifications or how Pops are preferentially sorted when hiring them. Qualifications is best thought of as a mishmash of "could this Pop literally carry out this particular Profession, given their current attributes" and "would other Pops in the country actually hire this Pop for this Profession, given their current attributes". The first part of that equation doesn't really change under Command Economy or cooperative forms of economic organization - you absolutely need a certain level of education to become an Academic or Engineer, and the greater the number of people who know how to read and write the greater the chance one of them will have the talents and tendencies to perform those jobs well. As for the second part... I'm not sure it'd make a difference, either! People tend to be, well, people, regardless of economic system, and people have biases about who they think would be a credible farmboy or clerk or military officer. So it's entirely possible Laws like those will end up making a difference to Qualification calculations before Victoria 3 is released, these numbers and factors aren't final, but even if so it probably won't make a huge impact.

What does change the equations quite a bit is more egalitarian access to the factors that produce Qualifications. In a liberal and non-discriminatory society, with a public school system and low wealth disparity, Pops will accumulate Qualifications a lot more equally on account of having more similar properties than in a discriminatory and stratified society.

So, let's say a country wants to restrict social mobility. If you are a farmer, then you (and your descendants) stay farmers. If you are a soldier, then you (and your descendants) stay soldiers. Could this system model that in some way? What would that look like?
 
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No, I can see that. In this tooltip in particular, engineers are almost invisible. Farmers are hard to see. Machinists and laborers to a point too.View attachment 749389

It is much better in the next tooltip. So they need to figure out the backgrounds or make the icons much brighter. Maybe add more color to differentiate them?
View attachment 749388
Will ping our UX experts on this, thanks for the feedback! These smaller "text-icons" for Professions are pretty new and not fully polished yet, so hopefully we can address this.

Edit to add: but of course, they're already on the case :D
 
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With respect to the latter question, buildings will always aim for proportionality between Professions - if a factory loses all its Engineers and can't promote Machinists or other Professions to take over, it will start letting go of other employees until it returns to proportionality and profitability, and can start competing again to get some of those Engineers back.
So you might be in a profession that is not in-demand in your state, but still draw a high wage because you happen to work in an industry where employment is effectively limited because some other profession is in high demand.
 
Great question! Currently there's no direct impact from the Command Economy Law on Qualifications or how Pops are preferentially sorted when hiring them. Qualifications is best thought of as a mishmash of "could this Pop literally carry out this particular Profession, given their current attributes" and "would other Pops in the country actually hire this Pop for this Profession, given their current attributes". The first part of that equation doesn't really change under Command Economy or cooperative forms of economic organization - you absolutely need a certain level of education to become an Academic or Engineer, and the greater the number of people who know how to read and write the greater the chance one of them will have the talents and tendencies to perform those jobs well. As for the second part... I'm not sure it'd make a difference, either! People tend to be, well, people, regardless of economic system, and people have biases about who they think would be a credible farmboy or clerk or military officer. So it's entirely possible Laws like those will end up making a difference to Qualification calculations before Victoria 3 is released, these numbers and factors aren't final, but even if so it probably won't make a huge impact.

What does change the equations quite a bit is more egalitarian access to the factors that produce Qualifications. In a liberal and non-discriminatory society, with a public school system and low wealth disparity, Pops will accumulate Qualifications a lot more equally on account of having more similar properties than in a discriminatory and stratified society.

What about unions? Having (especially socialist) unions ought to affect wages (but probably not qualifications). There are a coupled of different approaches to that. These could range from temporary effects of strikes (by event, presumably) forcing increased wages at a certain workplace, all the way to, in a heavily unionized country, a wage floor for certain occupations because of industry-wide collective bargaining (hey, congrats btw for your collective bargaining agreement at PDX!). That would in turn affect profitability and employment (possibly forcing you to subsidize), and hasten the elimination of low profit and low productivity businesses.
 
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'...and 74 more items.' This is the same UI problem that CK3 has, except now even more massive. There needs to be a better way to display this information or the amount of critical data that warrants informing the player needs to be cut down.

Victoria 3 is looking more and more like a spreadsheet with a bad UI facade over the top with every new dev diary.
 
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Another one, we won't have capitalists or aristocrats under a socialist system yes? Maybe bureaucrats fulfilling their profession under those systems?
 
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