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EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of July 2020

Good afternoon! I am once again eschewing the traditional Swedish summer vacation, this time because I’d prefer to wait until I can safely travel rather than taking a dull staycation in my Stockholm apartment. What that means for you lovely people is that you get summer content dev diaries! Let’s get right into it!

dd_indochina.png


Those of you who know me even slightly will be aware that I love all things South-East Asia (SEA). After 2.5 years on the project, I finally have the opportunity to create the SEA map rework of my dreams. Shown above is Mainland SEA. Burma/Myanmar is excluded from the map rework as I feel that the treatment I gave it during the development of Dharma still holds up. There will certainly be new content for nations in that region however, including what another dev fondly described as the “Shan mission stick” when we played MP this weekend.

The country setup has not been radically altered. The only new additions to the 1444 setup are the tribes inhabiting what is today the Central Highlands of Vietnam. I have, however, added many new provinces and increased the total development of the region significantly. According to the logs, the indo_china_region now contains 64 provinces with 542 total development. Note that these numbers, like all numbers presented in dev diaries, are not final. I’m especially satisfied with how Lan Na fits into its 5-province state, bordered on its west by impassable terrain. Speaking of impassable terrain, the Annamite Range now separates Vietnam from much of Laos, making Dai Viet a drastically more defensible nation.

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities. We’ll talk about various ways that this will be achieved another time, but one prerequisite for the goal is having nations to vassalize:


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Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.


dd_culture.png


I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.


dd_siam.png


Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!
 
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I think the province on a map named LAKHON/Lakhon in the Lan Na Kingdom is incorrect, it should be Lampang/Khelang Nakhon. The old name of Lampang was Khelang Nakhon.

You're right, it should be Lampang.
 
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This update is pretty good, currently Burman provinces are like half the size of Indochinese provinces. I did an Ayutthaya run in 1.29 and the provinces were way too big. This update will hopefully bring the detail that SEA needs.
 
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"Malacca asked for Ming intervention against a naval invasion from Ayutthaya - Ming promised nothing. "

Well, Ayutthaya is another Ming Tributary. If this happened in-game, Ming would not interfere as well.
 
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I am glad that SEA region is being updated, probably will play in this region for the first time after the update.
I am not sure if changing cham culture from malaya culture group to SEA culture group is a good idea, it is not only a language question but the chams are ethnically austronesians and are in game better represented by the malay culture group, not sure if gameplay reasons in this case really requires this change, otherwise, I am happy and optimist with the others proposed changes in the update, good job.

Some chance of a update in the Oceania region with a tag representing the Tui' Tonga Empire and maybe some tags for native australians and maoris? Or it is outside the scope of this update? I can understand arguments against new tags for native australians and maoris but I really miss a Tui' Tonga tag in the game.
 
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And there is plenty of content he could design that doesn't involve adding more tags to degrade early game performance even further than it was in the last patch.
Speaking as someone who thinks we have too many provinces and too many tags (to the point I'm seriously considering creating a mod that merges away a few hundred provinces):

Paradox have established some kind of standard for the quality (including level of detail) of how a region is presented, and there seems to be a sentiment among anyone remotely interested in SEA that it currently falls short of that standard. (There may be disagreement on how far short, of course.)

So either that standard needs to be rolled back (ahahaha yeah right), or SEA needs to be revised.

You're clearly opposed to the latter, so which tags and provinces do you want Paradox to delete from Europe, Africa, and India?
 
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I think the province on a map named LAKHON/Lakhon in the Lan Na Kingdom is incorrect, it should be Lampang/Khelang Nakhon. The old name of Lampang was Khelang Nakhon.
You're right, it should be Lampang.
Lampang native here. Lakhon technically isn't a wrong province name; it's a shortened form of either the name Khelang Nakhon or Lampang Nakhon, similar to how Nakhon Ratchasima is shortened down to just 'Khorat.' Considering that Khorat is the current name of the province containing Nakhon Ratchasima, I think it's perfectly fine to have Lampang/Khelang Nakhon as 'Lakhon.' Additionally, the Thai Wikipedia page on Lampang province calls the old town of Lampang 'Wiang Lakhon;' "เวียงลคอร"
 
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Lampang native here. Lakhon technically isn't a wrong province name; it's a shortened form of either the name Khelang Nakhon or Lampang Nakhon, similar to how Nakhon Ratchasima is shortened down to just 'Khorat.' Considering that Khorat is the current name of the province containing Nakhon Ratchasima, I think it's perfectly fine to have Lampang/Khelang Nakhon as 'Lakhon.' Additionally, the Thai Wikipedia page on Lampang province calls the old town of Lampang 'Wiang Lakhon;' "เวียงลคอร"

Fair enough. I'll go with Lampang though since it's a little more recognizable.
 
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In my opinion, Champa should be in the culture group of Malay, but Dai Viet should have claim on Champa and mission to cultural convert Cham land.
That way Dai Viet should only border with Lan Xang and not Khmer after eating Champa (for AI only) they will stay longer.
Also Champa gameplay would be more fun since they don't just die faster due to being in the same culture group of both Dai Viet and Khmer. Even if they lost the war The Chams should only become OPM historically and not be eaten completely.
Agreed, even historically, the Chams had extensive interaction with their fellow Malay neighbors to the South, especially Malacca
 
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The culture map shows that Lanna part is Thai which it should be Lanna instead of Thai which the map shows that Thai is more Central Thai because Northern Thais called themselves Khon Mueang not Siamese and Central Thai culture should be renamed to Siamese as Central Thai ethnicity is also known as Thai Sayam(Siam). Kengtung is Shan however, people in Kengtung has cultural similarities to Northern Thai/Lanna and speak similar language to Lanna rather than Shan in Hsenwi and Hsipaw due to Kengtung was also ruled by same dynasty in Lanna. For cultural group should go either Thai or Tai without H .
 
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Given the current state of early game performance and the known impact that the "moar, moar, moar" (in particular tags on the map) have on performance I would tend to agree.




And there is plenty of content he could design that doesn't involve adding more tags to degrade early game performance even further than it was in the last patch. Plenty of nations still have little or no historic content. Even more still only have the generic mission trees. Several religions are generously described as bland, and so on. How about addressing some of those content shortcomings rather than adding additional OPMs that exist almost solely to diminish early game performance before they are inevitably nommed by one of the local medium or larger powers?
Speaking as someone who thinks we have too many provinces and too many tags (to the point I'm seriously considering creating a mod that merges away a few hundred provinces):

Paradox have established some kind of standard for the quality (including level of detail) of how a region is presented, and there seems to be a sentiment among anyone remotely interested in SEA that it currently falls short of that standard. (There may be disagreement on how far short, of course.)

So either that standard needs to be rolled back (ahahaha yeah right), or SEA needs to be revised.

You're clearly opposed to the latter, so which tags and provinces do you want Paradox to delete from Europe, Africa, and India?
Why are you guys opposed to richer province fidelity? If the starting map is closer to irl you'll get a more accurate map to later start dates. More provinces to cross means less half month to cross provinces as well as allowing greater maneuverability in war
 
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Might we see some new cultures in the region too? I'm excited to see that there are new Degar/Montagnard nations instead of that area simply belonging to Champa, but really they should have their own culture. New cultures could also make sense for the hill peoples of Laos (Khmu especially) and northern and southern Thailand (Lanna and Dambro). Then for Maritime Southeast, Acehnese and Sundanese would be very welcome.
 
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None yet but I'd like something to flow into the Siam node to make it less terrible.

My suggestion still holds :)
SouthEastTrade.png
  • Ingoing route from Canton (a must)
  • Ingoing route from Burma (optional, but logical)
  • Outgoing route to Malacca
  • Outgoing route to Philippines (minor route, but still historical)
That would make Siam real part of world trade network.

And given province density I think it would be appropriate now to make some Siam node boundary changes:
- move Lan Na and Luang Prabang areas into Burma trade node (those 2 belonged to same mountain caravan trade network as Burma)
- move Champa area into Canton trade node (Champa had far stronger trade connections with South China & Dai Viet rather than Siam)

*moving Brunei into Philippines trade node would be another major thing to do. Philippines were principal trade area of Brunei merchants and regions were so much interconnected.
 
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AnNam is not a historical name for the south of Vietnam during civil war period. The name was picked up by China as a united Vietnamese country (the lords of North and South theoretically still served to Le Dynasty's emperors). Name suggestions are Cochin-china, Quinan, Ha Nam.

An Nam could be formed (not by breaking Dai Viet) but by control some part of LanXang, Kkmer, take down Champa and central highland. A decision to move capital to Hue with low cost could be added after form the country.

e. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.

Since you mentioned "nam tiến", it would be cool to add it to Dai Viet mission tree. Dai Viet could have a special event "diplomatic insult from Champa" before 1460 to have a war that turn Champa into a vassal or permanent claims on its provinces could be added. I don't think you have to change the culture of Champa to Indochina culture group (because historically, it's not).

Also, hope you would add decision or mission "forming Nam Yue" from some Dai Viet and Yue provinces. This decision could be added to Yue (after breaking apart from China) as well.

By forming those countries, the main religion could automatically be changed to Confucianism.

Also. Siam nod should change a little bit (connected to Burma and Canton could be possible).
 
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Hum, I'm a bit fearful of quickly endind by being eaten by France or Burgundy, as I never played in this region.
My suggestion still holds :)
View attachment 598517
  • Ingoing route from Canton (a must)
  • Ingoing route from Burma (optional, but logical)
  • Outgoing route to Malacca
  • Outgoing route to Philippines (minor route, but still historical)
That would make Siam real part of world trade network.

And given province density I think it would be appropriate now to make some Siam node boundary changes:
- move Lan Na and Luang Prabang areas into Burma trade node (those 2 belonged to same mountain caravan trade network as Burma)
- move Champa area into Canton trade node (Champa had far stronger trade connections with South China & Dai Viet rather than Siam)

*moving Brunei into Philippines trade node would be another major thing to do. Philippines were principal trade area of Brunei merchants and regions were so much interconnected.


For me the route from Siam to Philippines is important. This way you can steer it into the Polynesian triangle and from there north into Nippon and Beijing.
It always felt ood that you couldn't transfer the trade north if you expanded further south as Ming or quing.
 
I don’t know if this was mentioned, but will there be dynamic province names between Khmer, Thai, Malay, and Vietnamese cultures? It’s small but possibly one of my favorite features of the game, really improves the immersion
 
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For me the route from Siam to Philippines is important. This way you can steer it into the Polynesian triangle and from there north into Nippon and Beijing.
It always felt ood that you couldn't transfer the trade north if you expanded further south as Ming or quing.
Because if you could transfer south then you could create an infinite loop and create stack overflow, also why Pest and Ragusa can't flow to Constantinople
 
I see, this update is a great opportunity to give the USA mission to intervene into Vietnam! The only mission in the game that will actually cripple you while claiming reward for it!
 
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