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EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of July 2020

Good afternoon! I am once again eschewing the traditional Swedish summer vacation, this time because I’d prefer to wait until I can safely travel rather than taking a dull staycation in my Stockholm apartment. What that means for you lovely people is that you get summer content dev diaries! Let’s get right into it!

dd_indochina.png


Those of you who know me even slightly will be aware that I love all things South-East Asia (SEA). After 2.5 years on the project, I finally have the opportunity to create the SEA map rework of my dreams. Shown above is Mainland SEA. Burma/Myanmar is excluded from the map rework as I feel that the treatment I gave it during the development of Dharma still holds up. There will certainly be new content for nations in that region however, including what another dev fondly described as the “Shan mission stick” when we played MP this weekend.

The country setup has not been radically altered. The only new additions to the 1444 setup are the tribes inhabiting what is today the Central Highlands of Vietnam. I have, however, added many new provinces and increased the total development of the region significantly. According to the logs, the indo_china_region now contains 64 provinces with 542 total development. Note that these numbers, like all numbers presented in dev diaries, are not final. I’m especially satisfied with how Lan Na fits into its 5-province state, bordered on its west by impassable terrain. Speaking of impassable terrain, the Annamite Range now separates Vietnam from much of Laos, making Dai Viet a drastically more defensible nation.

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities. We’ll talk about various ways that this will be achieved another time, but one prerequisite for the goal is having nations to vassalize:


dd_releasables.png


Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.


dd_culture.png


I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.


dd_siam.png


Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!
 
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You're right, it should be Lampang.

Could you also take a look at the province of Khukhanor Surin too?
Thanks.

Hello, please take a look if the province of "Khukhanor Surin" is correct, as of my findings, there is no such name as "Khukhanor Surin/Khukhanor", but there is however a name of "Khukhan" which is a district in the modern province of Sisaket that is around the same area as in the game.

So I was wondering if there's a mistake in naming the province "Khukhan OR Surin" and ended up being the same word without space.

I've made the topic about this long time ago: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/incorrect-province-name.883282/
Along with the province of Nakhon Thung Yai: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/incorrect-province-name-nakhon-thung-yai.883283/

Please take this into consideration.
If this is a mistake, apologize in advance.
Thanks!
 
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Might we see some new cultures in the region too? I'm excited to see that there are new Degar/Montagnard nations instead of that area simply belonging to Champa, but really they should have their own culture. New cultures could also make sense for the hill peoples of Laos (Khmu especially) and northern and southern Thailand (Lanna and Dambro). Then for Maritime Southeast, Acehnese and Sundanese would be very welcome.

Yes, Degar areas should be Degar culture as these areas are inhabited by Degar people who are different from Cham and Khmer.
 
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@neondt
Please please add both of this ranges:

This ranges separate (and did so historically) much of Cambodia from Thailand. There's a reason empires, ethnicities and ultimately countries in that area ended with the shape they are now and it's because moving and supplying armies through those mountainous jungle ranges was and still is incredibly difficult (to this day see Khmer Rouge holding out in the Cardamoms for example).

SE asia history is full of supporting vassals and claimants instead of rulin directly from accross ranges.

In fact if you look at satellite imagery you'll see that to this day it remains mostly virgin forests because of it's inaccessibility. Also Sankamphaeng literally means fortification as that range was for hundreds of years a naturally defensible border.

It has been a pet peeve of mine since the last SE asia rework to see those ranges excluded when they are such an important part of the area history and geography.
There was a suggestion re impassable terrain in SEA:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/mountains-in-southeast-asia.1005471/
 
I'd guess in the Malacca > Burma connection (allowing Burma > Siam > Malacca > Burma or the bigger Burma > Siam > Philippines> Polynesia > Nippon > Hangzhou > Malacca > Burma ).

Oh didn't know there is a Malacca Burma connecion. I looked at the outdated wiki map and thought the only change would have been in Europe and the triangle.
 
Hello, thank you @neondt and team for upgrading the depth of playing in mainland SEA - a charming region that I think was being forgotten. I am sure all the players in mainland SEA, Thais, Khmer, Laos and Vietnamese are extremely happy to hear the news.

For those of you who are making suggestions for maritime SEA or reporting bugs, this is a DD for MAINLAND SEA. Who knows if there will be (if ever) any other update focusing on mainland SEA again after this. So it is better to make it right at once.
 
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Hai Phong should be remaned to Hai Duong, for historical accuracy.
Hue should be renamed to Thuan Hoa and Da Nang renamed to Quang Nam. Nguyen Lords usually called their land Quang Nam Quoc (the Kingdom of Quang Nam), and thus originated the name Quinan called by the Europeans.
Thus: Annam should be renamed to Quinan.
 
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Canton trade node (and Burma by inland trade) should at least flow to Siam before reaching Malacca. Siam was vibrant back then and even still today.

Champa must be in Austroasiatic culture group, not Vietnamese. It should not be used as a means for the Nam Tien (Southward Advance)

Dai Viet's main trading competitor was Champa, who steered trade flow from Canton (if Canton trade flow indeed goes to Siam), and resurrected many separatism in Quang Binh and Thuan Hoa (Hue) provinces. Therefore, historically, Dai Viet kings usually waged wars on Champa to punish them, loot their wealth and trade, and gain a huge amount of legitimacy and prestige at home. Invading Champa was not an option for Dai Viet's kings, it was a must. Make it a Mission with a enough amount of benefits to encourage people on pursuing it.
Moreover, please move Quang Binh and Thuan Hoa (Hue) provinces to Siam trade node, as it was and is still now more natural to be connected to the south than north of Vietnam (these two are the natural boundary between the North and South Vietnam's economy even till today). Thus player as Dai Viet will be more incline to invade Champa, and develop the Chams region as it was in history. It is also one of the reason why in 1802, Nguyen Anh chose Hue to be his capital, it is to better control the south because all the trade in the north (Canton node) was then being steered to the Siam node.
 
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maybe now there can be some events relating to the historical opium trade pushed on the region by colonial powers. for example something like a European nation that has xyz number of opium producing provinces in Bengal region and a certain percentage of trade power in the China or SEA region can fire off a series of events and disasters that could make for quite fun game play. Without the opium drug trade French Indochina would have never been a sustainable colony, nor would the Dutch have had some much control over the Indonesia archipelago
 
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Thank you @neondt for your DD. I'm really looking forward to this patch.
As Thai myself, I have some suggestions on the changes for some provinces. Some of them were mentioned somewhere already. So, I summarized them here.

Overall, I think the shape and amount of the province are quite okay already. So, I'd like to add only two more provinces. You can split dev point from other nearby provinces to balance overall dev of the country.

1. Lakhon - change to Lam Pang.
2. Phra Bang - change to Chakangrao. Then change to Kamphaengphet when Siam formed. It is a historically important city during Sukhothai and Ayutthaya periods as battlegrounds for many Burmese invasions of Siam.
3. Relocate Phra Bang to this province instead. Also, please move the location of the city as well (star in the map). When Siam formed, change the name to Nakhon Sawan.
4. New province - relocate Phetchabun here. The star is the city location (which is the old city of Si Thep, not the modern Petchabun).
5. Lopburi- change the name to Lavo. Then, change to Lopburi after Siam formed. Also, rewrite the border of Lavo for the additional province and for more accurate land across the river.
6. Change the name to Phi Mai. The historic city of Si Thep is actually part of new Chaiyaphum on the map. Area to the north of Korat is more fit for a historically important city of Phi Mai which is also part of modern-day Korat. The star is the city location.
7. New province - Prachinburi. Just to fill the gap between the three big provinces. The star is the city location.
8. Nakhon Thungyai - change the name to Chanthaburi. It's a much more important city as it is the place where the Siamese king prepared his army after the fall of Ayutthaya, expelled Taungoo army, and unified Siam in 1590s.
9. Sip Et - correct name to Roi Et.
10. Khukhanor Surin - correct name to Khukhan, then change to Surin when Siam formed.

11. province 3 and 4 can be in the same Sukhothai state. So, it becomes a 5-province state.
12. province 7 can be part of the Khorat state. It becomes 5-prov state as well.

Hope you consider my suggestions. Really excited about the new Ayutthayan mission tree!

update SEA rev 1.png
 
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Thank you @neondt for your DD. I'm really looking forward to this patch.
As Thai myself, I have some suggestions on the changes for some provinces. Some of them were mentioned somewhere already. So, I summarized them here.

Overall, I think the shape and amount of the province are quite okay already. So, I'd like to add only two more provinces. You can split dev point from other nearby provinces to balance overall dev of the country.

1. Lakhon - change to Lam Pang.
2. Phra Bang - change to Chakangrao. Then change to Kamphaengphet when Siam formed. It is a historically important city during Sukhothai and Ayutthaya periods as battlegrounds for many Burmese invasions of Siam.
3. Relocate Phra Bang to this province instead. Also, please move the location of the city as well (star in the map). When Siam formed, change the name to Nakhon Sawan.
4. New province - relocate Phetchabun here. The star is the city location (which is the old city of Si Thep, not the modern Petchabun).
5. Rewrite the border of Lopburi for the additional province and for more accurate land across the river.
6. Change the name to Phi Mai. The historic city of Si Thep is actually part of new Chaiyaphum on the map. Area to the north of Korat is more fit for a historically important city of Phi Mai which is also part of modern-day Korat. The star is the city location.
7. New province - Prachinburi. Just to fill the gap between the three big provinces. The star is the city location.
8. Nakhon Thungyai - change the name to Chanthaburi. It's a much more important city as it is the place where the Siamese king prepared his army after the fall of Ayutthaya, expelled Taungoo army, and unified Siam in 1590s.
9. Sip Et - correct name to Roi Et.
10. Khukhanor Surin - correct name to Khukhan, then change to Surin when Siam formed.

11. province 3 and 4 can be in the same Sukhothai state. So, it becomes a 5-province state.
12. province 7 can be part of the Khorat state. It becomes 5-prov state as well.

Hope you consider my suggestions. Really excited about the new Ayutthayan mission tree!

View attachment 598793

This is what we need, and easy for the dev to see.
Thank you very much!
 
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Thank you @neondt for your DD. I'm really looking forward to this patch.
As Thai myself, I have some suggestions on the changes for some provinces. Some of them were mentioned somewhere already. So, I summarized them here.

Overall, I think the shape and amount of the province are quite okay already. So, I'd like to add only two more provinces. You can split dev point from other nearby provinces to balance overall dev of the country.

1. Lakhon - change to Lam Pang.
2. Phra Bang - change to Chakangrao. Then change to Kamphaengphet when Siam formed. It is a historically important city during Sukhothai and Ayutthaya periods as battlegrounds for many Burmese invasions of Siam.
3. Relocate Phra Bang to this province instead. Also, please move the location of the city as well (star in the map). When Siam formed, change the name to Nakhon Sawan.
4. New province - relocate Phetchabun here. The star is the city location (which is the old city of Si Thep, not the modern Petchabun).
5. Rewrite the border of Lopburi for the additional province and for more accurate land across the river.
6. Change the name to Phi Mai. The historic city of Si Thep is actually part of new Chaiyaphum on the map. Area to the north of Korat is more fit for a historically important city of Phi Mai which is also part of modern-day Korat. The star is the city location.
7. New province - Prachinburi. Just to fill the gap between the three big provinces. The star is the city location.
8. Nakhon Thungyai - change the name to Chanthaburi. It's a much more important city as it is the place where the Siamese king prepared his army after the fall of Ayutthaya, expelled Taungoo army, and unified Siam in 1590s.
9. Sip Et - correct name to Roi Et.
10. Khukhanor Surin - correct name to Khukhan, then change to Surin when Siam formed.

11. province 3 and 4 can be in the same Sukhothai state. So, it becomes a 5-province state.
12. province 7 can be part of the Khorat state. It becomes 5-prov state as well.

Hope you consider my suggestions. Really excited about the new Ayutthayan mission tree!

View attachment 598793

Good proposals, also Lopburi should be named as Lawo because in EU4 timeframe, Lopburi was known as Lawo until the current name is changed during King Rama IV reign. Lawo can change to Lopburi when Siam is formed like many cities/provinces old name to present day provinces name.

I hope the devs will see this proposal for enhancement of Thai provinces and at same time I also proposed some more provinces in Sipsongchuthai provinces for making Sipsongchuthai region as I post on my thread about SE Asia map in suggestion section of EU 4.
 
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Good proposals, also Lopburi should be named as Lawo because in EU4 timeframe, Lopburi was known as Lawo until the current name is changed during King Rama IV reign. Lawo can change to Lopburi when Siam is formed like many cities/provinces old name to present day provinces name.

I hope the devs will see this proposal for enhancement of Thai provinces and at same time I also proposed some more provinces in Sipsongchuthai provinces for making Sipsongchuthai region as I post on my thread about SE Asia map in suggestion section of EU 4.

Thank you for the Lopburi suggestion. I totally agree with you. I edited my post so that the name is now Lavo. Note that I found it is "v" not "w" according to Wikipedia.

I've also looked into your post on the suggestion page. Many provinces may be difficult to add since it would make the state has 6 provinces which by far too large. The rest of them are quite align with my post. So, I think I'm good at the Siam region right now. For other nations, I'll let the natives suggest the change (already a lot of them in the suggestion forum).
 
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Animist religion should be split into groups: Eastern Animist, African Animist, Western Animist. This is to avoid there being affinity between Animist countries in SEA, Africa, and SA.
 
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Thank you, this is information I wasn't aware of before. I think I've got a good idea of how to represent this. I'll talk about it in a future dev diary.


The northern Thais near Chiang Mai also have a lot in common culturally and linguistically with the Laotians. Maybe this could be represented via positive diplomatic relations at the start?
 
Dai Viet had the population of 8 million in 1445 (Britain only had 2 million at that time), thus fighting with its neighbors was never a trouble in term of manpower and battle fields to deploy their armies. However, in the game, Dai Viet is the weakest among the Big4 mainland SEA (Thais, Khmer and Laos already have >14 provinces when the game starts, meanwhile Dai Viet only has 10). Therefore, I suggest that Dai Viet should have more provinces to properly reflect its position, and create more depth for the game.

We have made a thread here to explain in details. All the provinces were existed in 1445, and are still presented today:

1594466053367.png

(1) Tuyen Quang province, (2) Lang Son, (3) Thai Nguyen, (4) Quang Binh, (5) Vinh Long, (6) Ha Tien
All of these provinces played extremely significant roles in Vietnam history. I hope that you could include them in.
 
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Animist religion should be split into groups: Eastern Animist, African Animist, Western Animist. This is to avoid there being affinity between Animist countries in SEA, Africa, and SA.
Africa has Fetishist, I think "Animist" is pretty accurate for SEA, I do think SA needs something like Totemist
 
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