The United States: 'Advantages without Obligations'

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Yo:

I'm sure they'll be plenty of questions about some of what I touch on in the epilogue, yet I like to think history is not tidy, and all loose ends are never tied up in a story. So there'll always be something to think on. And on that note, thanks again, hopefully I'll be writing some more soon, not sure what yet though.

Unless Mett wants to revise that, which I doubt.

I was considering doing some fan stuff for this AAR - which Mett was happy about - but, alas, 'Prussian' absorbs too much of my time atm.

 

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Hi, yesterday I have read through this thread (all of the 100 pages...although with alot of skimming action) and I find it a very good AAR, congrats to Mettermrck for making such a great AAR, I like the way the story is a description of events, rather then something like a book, and I think with edits it would make an great novel (and much more realistic then some of the Alternative History novels I've seen...)

However I'm intrested if it's possible obtaining the files included in this AAR...I heard someone in the beginning of this thread asking for the files to be included in the CORE mod, however it seems that nothin has come from this...

 

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I just read through the PDF and half of the forum stuff, and I realized something chilling.

The Holocaust would never be known.

Think about it. The Soviets would "liberate" Germany and find all the evidence. The Allies would never see Germany until America steps in against the SU.

The Soviets might cry it out, but to western observers, it would look like propaganda. The show trial they held would be another proof of this.

By the time that Americans reach any concentration camp sites, they would have been cleared out by the Soviet Union. The Allies would never realize the evils of Hitler, nor would the German people.

Later on, in an America with a strong anti-Communist lean, any Holocaust "affirmers" would be seen as Soviet propagandizers. Even survivors of the camps would be ignored, and the camps would be seen as something minor perhaps. We might even see mainstream anti-semitism being tied in, a Judaeo-Bolshevik myth. Holocaust denial would be mainstream until teh Soviet Union collapses.

In Germany, alot of people would remember the Nazi era fondly. Their nation liberated, NSDAP might become a major party, especially with the US being so ambivalent to the Nazi regime. They would feel no failure on its part, only on the conspirators.

In Palestine, the Zionist cause may be hurt, and it may have to turn to the Soviet Union. With the creation of a Greater Arabia, positions in the Middle East would be reversed. (Western backed arabs, USSR backed Israel)

That is a rather bad turn for the worst.

Oh, I have a slight problem with your portrayal of Bose. First off, if you did some more research, you would find that he only allied with Japan and Germany out of necessity. He was a supporter of democracy, not fascism. He and the National Congress disagreed only on action during the war. Even then, Congress was sympathetic to the Axis. Look up some comments by Gandhi. You protrayed him as Mussolini, he was an Ataturk. He would not have jailed Congress members, and Congresswould have fought against Britain if Bose and the Japanese had made that kind of progress.

 

[Mettermrck]

Oh, I have a slight problem with your portrayal of Bose. First off, if you did some more research, you would find that he only allied with Japan and Germany out of necessity. He was a supporter of democracy, not fascism. He and the National Congress disagreed only on action during the war. Even then, Congress was sympathetic to the Axis. Look up some comments by Gandhi. You protrayed him as Mussolini, he was an Ataturk. He would not have jailed Congress members, and Congresswould have fought against Britain if Bose and the Japanese had made that kind of progress.

I certainly appreciate your input. Bose was an unfamiliar figure as I researched him when writing, so I make no claims at making a definitive portrayal of him in this story. I can only say that no one knows for sure what would've happened if Japan and the INA had overrun India in 40s. You may very well be right.

 

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Something that has been bugging me for some time - Why did the Pacific War not turn nuclear? Surely any Japan which survives WWII and is still militaristic and still retains it's empire (or, at least, a decent chunk of it) - i.e, remains a Great Power - would push for the bomb as soon as possible? Surely it could not have failed to acquire it by the early seventies?

Think about it. The Soviets would "liberate" Germany and find all the evidence. The Allies would never see Germany until America steps in against the SU.

As I think I've said before, I think this is an exageration. The Soviets would surely have invited in independent (I.E, western) observers to the camps to record the details of what went on, and to speak to the survivors. There would be no reason for them not to be totally open on this issue. Incidentally, the SU, Britain and France were the allies here, all fighting against Nazism, and the Cold War developed much later as Lindbergh's America became more involved in European affairs.

I have to say here that some people are seeing the world too much through the prism of America, which is perhaps understandable given the nature of the AAR - here, Britain and France were on much better terms with the Soviets than they were with America for the pretty much the entire duration of the war. (Remeber the Stockholm Exchange and the Brtitish reaction?) The Allies - which is to say, Britain and France - would not have had any pressing immediate political agenda to fulfill.

Let us remember that all the significant extermination camps were liberated by the Soviets in real life anyway, and I don't see anyone here doubting the existence of places like Maly Trostenets, (From which, incidentally, there are no survivors.) which was located as far east as Belarus, for crying out loud. Oh, and then we have the small matter that the Allies historically already knew about the camps during the later period of the war - the Soviets would simply have confirmed and already existing understanding.

The evidence of the Holocaust is simply too overwhelming for any rational person to doubt it, even in this timeline.

 

[Mettermrck]

Something that has been bugging me for some time - Why did the Pacific War not turn nuclear? Surely any Japan which survives WWII and is still militaristic and still retains it's empire (or, at least, a decent chunk of it) - i.e, remains a Great Power - would push for the bomb as soon as possible? Surely it could not have failed to acquire it by the early seventies?

That's a good question as Japan was the first to be the victim of nuclear 'dirty bombs' in Korea during the Soviet invasion. It's possible they developed a good bomb and had no delivery mechanism - long-range bomber or rocket. They might have developed a good bomb and you saw mutual deterrence (Japan saw what the US did to Moscow, Leningrad, and Kiev in the 1950s). Or, perhaps they were never able to harness enough of an industrial base to have a good bomb program. China was a wreck since the 1940s and Japan must've poured a lot of treasure into keeping the Kiri and Manchukuo governments afloat. Also, their navy was surely a priority to try to match the highly advanced US fleet. Not saying it wasn't possible, just broaching a few ideas. Were you referring to the Second Pacific War in the 1970s or the first one in the 1940s?

While I hate to touch upon the Holocaust in this story, I do agree with your thoughts, VJ, that the Soviets wouldn't pass up a public relations weapon against their erstwhile enemies. But in this grim world I created, sadly there's a lot of room for questionable things on many battlefronts.

 

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I was talking about the Second Pacific War. It just seemed a little odd to me that it didn't end in nuclear armageddon. Japan would surely have known that the US would have been looking for revanche in the future as soon as the Wake Peace was signed, and as I said, it still had a militaristic outlook - as far as we know, you didn't mention any significant domestic change in Japan, so I think we have to take that as read - and GP pretensions.

Even in our world, second-ranking powers such as China, France, and The UK had the bomb by the early seventies - indeed, had had it for some time. It seems a little strange that the Japan of this timeline (Surrounded, incidentally, by a USSR/Russia that has it and an America that also has it, neither of which Japan is on particularly good terms with) wouldn't have also sought it, and certainly acquired it by the early to mid-seventies.

 

[Mettermrck]

I was talking about the Second Pacific War. It just seemed a little odd to me that it didn't end in nuclear armageddon. Japan would surely have known that the US would have been looking for revanche in the future as soon as the Wake Peace was signed, and as I said, it still had a militaristic outlook - as far as we know, you didn't mention any significant domestic change in Japan, so I think we have to take that as read - and GP pretensions.

It's certainly possible. Perhaps instinctively, I wanted to avoid a destructive nuclear exchange to leave the world open-ended as I finished. I think as a whole, I didn't touch on second-tier nuclear programs from anyone, Britain or France included. When the game itself ended in the 1950s, there were only two, and I didn't focus on adding any more to the equation in the epilogue.

 

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btw, it's just a good job that McCarthy was so pre-occupied with domestic problems that he didn't have the chance to turn to foreign policy in any depth and start WW3(4?)!

 

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Another interesting curiosity: The 1948 Presidential election was very bitterly fought and divisive; so divisive, in fact, that Long Island apparently voted for Lindbergh, whilst the rest of New York went Republican.

Following in the footsteps of West Virginia, I suppose.

 

[Mettermrck]

Another interesting curiosity: The 1948 Presidential election was very bitterly fought and divisive; so divisive, in fact, that Long Island apparently voted for Lindbergh, whilst the rest of New York went Republican.

Following in the footsteps of West Virginia, I suppose.

Hmm, looks blue on my HD copy and in the pdf. I wonder if there's an older version of the file floating around? Of course, I'm only 2/3rds of the way through in restoring the pictures to this thread, so I haven't gotten to 1948 yet. My elections seemed to get worse each time, more divisive and 1948 was definitely the climax of it.

 

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My mistake: it's on the 1944 PDF map, not 1948.

Presumably Mr Dolman and friends had a few fireside chats with the Brooklyn mafiosi?

 

[Sir Humphrey]

Just a question.

In the post war world, before the second pacific war, was the military in Japan in totality with the political system? Or did it gradually phase back to conservative/nationalist civilian control?

 

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I reckon that there would have been a balance between increasing prosperity and a probable shift away from the military and back towards civilian control in domestic affairs, and, on the other hand, a continuation of military influence (control, even) over foreign affairs.

The general outcome of the war and the affirmation of Japan's status as the premier regional power, but with continuing global and regional uncertainity, would have meant the control clique would have been vindicated in the eyes of the public and would personally been in no rush to divest themselves of political power.

A bit like Turkey or many of the other countries of Southern Europe in the post-war period in real life, only more affluent and stable.

It's ironic that Japan's stated reasons for intervention in China - to restore order and defeat the threat of Communism - ended in this timeline with China in a greater state of anarchy mixed with residual foreign Communist influence than it had ever been subject to in the thirties.

 

[Mettermrck]

VJ answered far thoroughly than I could. I admit I didn't really address the subject much in the story except in passing. I think the continued military troubles in China would've kept a military influence in the government for sure. Otherwise, Japan did enjoy two to three decades of peace in the Pacific, allowing room for a semblance of a civilian political life back home. Alas, an epilogue can only answer so much.

 

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Question: Why did Dolman and friends force the nomination of Walter E. Edge as VP in 1936? It seemed to me a bit like you had a plot line starting up there and then you kind of dropped it.

 

[Lurken]

Question: Why did Dolman and friends force the nomination of Walter E. Edge as VP in 1936? It seemed to me a bit like you had a plot line starting up there and then you kind of dropped it.

Or it was like things happen in RL, things happen all the time, and they don't always have to be connected to something else.

 

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Real life doesn't have a writer guiding it's plot and deciding on what to include and what to exclude. (Unless you believe in divine intervention)

 

[Mettermrck]

Question: Why did Dolman and friends force the nomination of Walter E. Edge as VP in 1936? It seemed to me a bit like you had a plot line starting up there and then you kind of dropped it.

You ask a very good question, VJ, as always. Most of the reason I went with Edge was that I was looking for a slight divergence from history, to disrupt the historical election path and give me some leeway to produce a Landon victory. From my own narrative, I think that Dolman's financial backers were a bigger reason for victory than a choice of vice-president. I guess I was looking for a VP choice who was both quiet, unassuming, and came from a strategic state. Though Knox himself had quite a strategic value, so it probably wasn't a particularly clever choice on my part, just a starting PoD to get the ball rolling.

 

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Bah, you should have gone with a proper nutcase as VP. The readership likes it when nutters are elected. I hope to make 'Prussian' resplendent with elected maniacs.