The SolAARium: Discuss the craft of writing - Alphabetical Index in the 1st Post

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I don't think that using "said" as an invisible word is bad necessarily, but I am partial to using action descriptors. Personally, though, I think that using the same action descriptor a million times is probably a bad idea - I've done this, and I think it's too noticeable. There was a succession of updates for my abandoned narrative megacampaign that all started with "(Character name) sighed", and I got really annoyed with myself for doing that. Basically, my opinion is that, if you're using action descriptors, don't just repeat the same one (or two) over and over again.

On a different topic, having finally resurrected my poetic AAR (again), I had a few questions... first of all, does anyone like to read or write rare AAR types that don't fit easily into the gameplay/narrative/historybook/comedy division? If so, what are they? Why?

Regarding poetry in particular, does anyone have a specific way that they write (or want to write) it? I went with ABAB rhyme scheme (with slant rhymes permitted), but I'm curious as to what other styles people enjoy.
 
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I don't think that using "said" as an invisible word is bad necessarily, but I am partial to using action descriptors. Personally, though, I think that using the same action descriptor a million times is probably a bad idea - I've done this, and I think it's too noticeable. There was a succession of updates for my abandoned narrative megacampaign that all started with "(Character name) sighed", and I got really annoyed with myself for doing that. Basically, my opinion is that, if you're using action descriptors, don't just repeat the same one (or two) over and over again.

On a different topic, having finally resurrected my poetic AAR (again), I had a few questions... first of all, does anyone like to read or write rare AAR types that don't fit easily into the gameplay/narrative/historybook/comedy division? If so, what are they? Why?

Regarding poetry in particular, does anyone have a specific way that they write (or want to write) it? I went with ABAB rhyme scheme (with slant rhymes permitted), but I'm curious as to what other styles people enjoy.
I too will leave the debate over "said" or descriptors for others to resolve as it is a matter of style, in my mind. Some styles definitely call for "said" and few if any descriptors.

Love the idea of poetry as an approach to an AAR. If I have read my recent AAR history correctly, one or two others have tried this recently. I think it is a great idea and will have to give your poetic AAR a look. As I have mentioned to you before, I think poetry is a real challenge. Maybe someone with great skill can attempt an AAR using iambic pentameter. If your style is not too cute or cloying, it will work for me, but that too is a matter of perspective.

I am tossing around the idea of retelling my current AAR using skaldic poetry styles. During the past year, in my research, I've now read enough translated skaldic poetry to want to experiment with that. But I would do it just as a personal challenge. Something tells me most folks here aren't into poetic approaches, although perhaps the comments on this post will prove me wrong on that point.
 
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If you have one character monologuing, then sentences or even paragraphs without 'said' can be OK - the reader knows who is talking. You can even do that with two characters, especially if they have accents, dialects or some (Ack!) habit of speech. If you have a lot of people speaking then either you must find some way to differentiate, or know that in some situations a clear definition of who is speaking is not critical. (Voices shouting from a crowd may not need precise identification).

Personally, I hate it when an author doesn't clearly indicate who is speaking because I then have to stop, take myself out of the story and try to puzzle out who said what to whom. Most annoying, and - unless you intend the effect - to be avoided on pain of my displeasure. (So there.)

But, yes - a lot of dialogue with he said, she said, some other bloke said can be unproductively jarring. And that's the point, isn't it - to not jolt and jar?

May I venture to say that the purpose of dialogue is the same as descriptive prose - to impart information and to move the story along while keeping the reader immersed? Meaning that you want to avoid unintentionally jarring the reader and jolting him out of the story. Dialogue, I believe, imparts an immediacy and a presence that other prose doesn't. So whether you choose narrative prose passages or go with dialogue should depend on the emotional 'heat' of the scene - cool for narrative, hotter for prose.


A possibly apocryphal story... A promising young student came to Kurt Weill and said, "Master, I wish to study composition with you." "Very well," said Weill. "Compose for me three chorales in the style of Bach." The student did so, and was assigned three more, then music in the style of other classical masters.

At length, the student said, "Master, I don't wish to be contrary. I wish to study with you because you know so much more than I. But when may I study the music you write, instead of that of these other men?"

"Ah!" said Weill. "I can teach you the rules, my son... but not how to break them."
 
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  • You must refrain from rewriting (except to editorial demand - no tinkering and tinkering)

This is the only one I can disagree with. It's fine if you are a Heinlein, King, Rowling and so on, but most markets (unless you self-publish) want the best polished product you can deliver. Even then, expect editorial changes or suggestions. Sawyer's sixth rule is a must.

@HistoryDude. I read some of When the Night Gets Dark last night. I found the earlier, shorter passages read well. The later, longer passages were a bit harder to digest. However, it's a form I would probably never attempt, and I give you full credit for trying and making it work.

@Chac1. I would be really interested to see this AAR written in the skaldic style. It appeals to the REH/Poul Anderson fan in me. Would it be in court meter?
 
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You must refrain from rewriting (except to editorial demand - no tinkering and tinkering)

This is the only one I can disagree with. It's fine if you are a Heinlein, King, Rowling and so on, but most markets (unless you self-publish) want the best polished product you can deliver. Even then, expect editorial changes or suggestions. Sawyer's sixth rule is a must.

I have to agree with LD on this one. I am a firm believer in revision as an important exercise.

But let's face it. None of us here are great authors. So, what would a great author do? Revise or not?

For what it's worth, John Milton republished Paradise Lost in a second edition years after the first publication. If you've ever read it in 12 books, that's the later version (and that's the version most people study or read).

Other writers are also in the same boat. Chaucer's tales are found in multiple manuscripts and multiple versions. Just a case of manuscripts being different per "ye old medieval writing style with lost texts"? Or more of a case of revising as the years wore on? The answer is easier to guess when you compare Chaucer to William Langland. There are multiple versions of Piers Plowman that exist. And we're not talking small grammatical changes, either. Of course, if you just study these works in a high school or low level college English course, you just get the version everyone likes. Your professor might not even mention that there are multiple versions of the text out there.

You want to get really in the weeds? We can do a textual history of various Tolkien's works. Characters changing names, plots changing, entire fictional languages changing.

Even King changes and revises his works for republication. The Stand is an excellent example of revision at work (whether you think the longer version or shorter version is better, I might add).

But, I mean, come on. Milton? Chaucer? Langland? Tolkien? King? Pfft. What have they ever done that's worthwhile? (You can insert your own "What have the Romans ever done for us" meme here)
 
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I like the fact that some of the greats tinkered.
In King's case, didn't he have to cut originally because of what the publisher demanded? Sometimes it just takes awhile to build up the right characters or the right tension or both.

@Chac1. I would be really interested to see this AAR written in the skaldic style. It appeals to the REH/Poul Anderson fan in me. Would it be in court meter?
I have attempted court meter and it is very difficult. As you know there are different styles. As I don't know Norse, this would be a modern English adaptation. What I've settled on in my practice attempts is an adapted court meter with elements that are common to the dróttkvætt style. For some reasons related to plotting, I've also played around with galdralag style. I think the results would actually be a mix of prose and different styles depending upon the tale told.
 
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Sawyer interprets Heinlein's "No rewrites" rule to be a prohibition on endless tinkering and revision. Write it, send it in... don't scratch at it endlessly. If you can't get it right, put it aside for later. More to the point, if an editor wants minor (or major) changes they will ask for them. In the meantime, write something else.

My process is to write, immediately read and edit, set aside and then re-read and re-edit. Sometimes I also make minor revisions as I post it... but I find that if I work everything out in my head, with all the characters slotted and all the plot points polished... then I lose steam and never get going.

But there is an old saying. "Sooner or later you have to shoot the engineers and put the darned thing in production." I think that applies to writing, also.
 
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But there is an old saying. "Sooner or later you have to shoot the engineers and put the darned thing in production." I think that applies to writing, also.

Yes. If writing is a process, then that process must end. Much like a sporting event, parade, or drinking binge.

As a side note on writing and revision, I always love what Terry Pratchett had to say about the characterization of Lord Vetinari in his various Discworld books. When asked why Vetinari's characterization was so different in earlier books, he replied with something along the lines of "Those earlier books were written by a worse writer."
 
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An author does not have any obligation to clarify any part in any story. The only responsibility of an author is to provide the clear structure for the words to exist in order to create, to achieve, to find the aesthetic, be it the flow of the story, else the story itself, or infinite possibilities a creator wants to bring out from the depths of a mind. And if that meets a reader, then it is the moment of wonders.
To quote you, "No."

If an author wants to tell a story, and have that story understood by the reader, then the author should strive for some level of clarity.

I understand the value of obfuscation, opacity and distraction. I have an education in music, and I know very well how tonal clarity in the Baroque becomes more and more complex, with layers and layers of dissonance adding more and more subtle tonal colors until we arrive at 20th century tone rows, composers like Penderecki, Miles Davis, Schoenberg and Webern. Classical art has given way to more and more extreme expressionism, leaving realism for impression and hallucination.

But. The deeper music has traveled into dissonance, the smaller the audiences have become - the most popular symphonic concerts feature composers older than, say, Mahler. The New Wave of science fiction mostly went out again. Modern art has its audience - but not a mass audience.

If you say the author has no obligation to be clear, you are correct. But that author is deliberately limiting his readership.

From my perspective, if you cannot tell me the story you want to tell, and be understood, then you have failed as a storyteller.
 
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If you say the author has no obligation to be clear, you are correct. But that author is deliberately limiting his readership.

From my perspective, if you cannot tell me the story you want to tell, and be understood, then you have failed as a storyteller.
Is this where I start brandishing my MA thesis on experimental practice in the post-war Modernist novel?

I know you’re not claiming as much – at least, I don’t think you are; I may have misunderstood – but it is worth emphasising that just as no author has an obligation to leave their potential audience as wide open as it can possibly be, so too can not limiting one’s readership compromise one’s literary–artistic vision. At the risk of restating a truism: it’s far easier, in attempting to offer something to everyone, to end up offering nothing to no-one. That which aspires to the unlimited readership must, by definition, be that which offends the sensibilities of the fewest people. And given that, as we’ve seen, it’s hard enough even to get three or four people contributing to an obscure thread on an arguably superannuated specialist writing forum – united in their interests by, of all things, the unusual hobby of writing self-published fan fiction on the subject of niche computer games – to agree unanimously with one another… Well, let’s just say that I’m not exactly on tenterhooks to read a work that we could theoretically all agree is basically tolerable.

In a way, I agree with your second formulation – about clarity and failure. (That aforementioned MA thesis was even about failure.) But I take issue with the assumption that writing=storytelling, or that the implied singular function of writing is to tell stories in the most literal sense (with the optional addendum: to the most people possible). The possibilities opened by the writing art are limitless; in its most basic guise, it is the arena for the construction and reconstruction of what it means to mean, to think, to live, to experience. That middle clause has it right: if you can’t tell the story that you want to tell, then we can start talking about failure. In a way, the next premise, about being understood, is immaterial; if you are true to yourself (and more importantly, if you take yourself seriously while being so) people will respond in kind. Miles’s audience may have been smaller than, say, Kenny Ball’s, but is anyone seriously going to suggest that Ball is the more important artist? Perhaps – if ‘important’ is taken to mean ‘reached more people in their day’. All I’d say to that is that I was born seven years after Miles died, near enough to the day, and the only reason I know anything about the work of Kenny Ball is that I’m a nerd who writes alt-historical glosses of mid-century popular British music for half a dozen strangers on an unloved corner of a gaming forum.

Which actually brings me to my main point: that artistic individualism and popular acclaim (‘being understood’) are hardly incompatible. Immediate gratification may be harder to come by in that regard, no doubt, but for my money I’d rather take longevity. And in my experience there is little better guarantee of longevity than staying true to your principles and being patient and committed in your work. Case in point: I started writing my current AAR in 2019 for an audience of about two people, one of whom was the then-indefatigable @stnylan. Five years later that work has just won its second History Book of the Year YAYA in a row, and at its last eligible ACAs showing took home the top spot in its category with more raw votes than any other AAR nominated in any category. This, too, following a period in which I’ve doubled down on everything in the work that makes it personal to me and my particular literary vision, and when by all rights it should be the least accessible it has ever been. My feeling is that a lot of this is because, after a lot of experimenting, I have finally hit upon the right form to express what I have wanted to express all along. And often this counts for just as much, if not more, than expressing thoughts too obviously, or in a manner which works for someone else but not for you. [Addendum: Kurt Weill had it right: it’s not the rules that matter, so much as the breaking of them. Just as long as you know why and how you are going to do it (but that’s another matter entirely…)]

After all, Ulysses was censored when it was first published – in a specialist (read: elitist) Modernist quarterly in the US. In the years since it has been held up and pilloried as the ur-text of impenetrable Modernism. As recently as 2016, one much-maligned British political figure was lambasted as pretentious and out of touch, and even accused outright of lying, for daring to suggest that it was his favourite book. Meanwhile the Irish give it a whole day of its own as a festival in the yearly calendar. And if that’s not success, or being understood, then I really don’t know what is. Sláinte!
 
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Hmm...I guess it's a bit like the old adage, "If you have to explain the joke, then it's no longer funny." But then again, maybe you are in front of the wrong audience. Or you didn't hit the punchline. ;)
 
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I know you’re not claiming as much – at least, I don’t think you are; I may have misunderstood – but it is worth emphasising that just as no author has an obligation to leave their potential audience as wide open as it can possibly be, so too can not limiting one’s readership compromise one’s literary–artistic vision.

Agreed. But in the context of selling your work.. yes, you should know what an editor and an audience will like. Creative license is absolute, but getting published and paid is not. Here on the forum, you can write the most abstract, abstruse, complex and creatively brilliant piece of opaque, obscure and literarily magnificent prose you want. I believe few people will read it and fewer will comment, but you certainly have the freedom to go to it, alone though you may be. I always told my students, "Yes - you can do anything you want, if you are willing to pay the price for it."

And no, I'm not arguing that all literature should be written for the lowest common denominator - we have Dan Brown for that (and a wealthy man he is, too). I strongly believe that an author should bear in mind who he is writing for, what story he wants to tell and then shape his methods to those ends. I'm not proposing that everyone write down, but rather that authors should write with intent and not be surprised if an experimental work isn't understood and appreciated.

And yes, authors can educate their readers and the public. The New Wave in science fiction is a case in point: it went from being a hated perversion of things fandom loved, to being a branch with its own magazines, to being accepted everywhere and then, finally, to being... nowhere, because its basic tenets had been absorbed and normalized into mainstream SF. But the process was long, divisive and - in the 1960s world of 1/2 cent or 1 cent paid per word - simply not viable for some people who wrote for a living.

@stnylan writes beautifully. And he has been known to have some subtle things going on which the reader can discover later. But does he unintentionally or through bad technique write un-clearly? In my opinion, no - he is skillful and considers what the readers are going to think about what he writes. In other words, he isn't appreciated by forumites because he is experimental, but because he is skillful and knows the value of evocative prose. In short, he knows both the value of telling a good story and the value of how the story is told. His writing is intentional.



I'll make you this bet: of 100 people who celebrate Ulysses, half or more haven't read the whole thing and/or cannot tell you what it is about. Its celebrity - and that of Joyce - are perhaps somewhat due to nationality and not purely due to literary value.

Experimental has a price and an author should know the rules before breaking them.



My original point had to do with strings of dialogue with no clue as to who is speaking. For example:

"We should go tonight."

"It's risky."

"The risk is worth the reward."

"Is it? Is there any reward for that idol?"

"LeFat will pay."

"LeFat pays too little and too late."

Is that two people? Three? Six? Who knows? It may not matter to the story in the least, except so far as it pulls the reader out of the story and makes him read and re-read as he tries to figure out who is in favor (or not) and what their reasons are. A bit of "VanBloat said" or "Mustacha scratched his chin" can go a long way to clarify whereas 'he said' and 'she said' after every line doesn't read well. Even, "Comments rippled around the table, some for and others against," can be effective.

For most of us and for most of what we write, in my opinion, helping the reader stay in the story is more valuable than not.
 
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Is this where I start brandishing my MA thesis on experimental practice in the post-war Modernist novel?

Don't worry. I won't invoke my doctoral work on medieval and early modern translation theory if you keep your MA thesis out of it. :D

If an author wants to tell a story, and have that story understood by the reader, then the author should strive for some level of clarity.

At the risk of restating a truism: it’s far easier, in attempting to offer something to everyone, to end up offering nothing to no-one.

This is where rhetoric intersects storytelling as an art form. Are we striving for rhetorical effectiveness? What does that even mean in the context of story telling versus, say, persuasive rhetoric?

I could try to persuade the customers in the town in which I reside to go and eat at the local McDonalds. We whip up an advertising campaign, and its effectiveness is measured in how much the campaign cost versus whether more people went to spend money at the McDonalds. I have a clear message, I present it in an understandable way to the audience, and when 10% more people show up to buy burgers, I know it worked. But this is rhetoric. Do we measure storytelling in terms of audience and ticket sales? What if I am instead writing a story that focuses on the inevitability of death, pain, and suffering? If it's not popular, did it fail? Or was it a success because a small audience of people who have suffered starvation and torture (and somehow managed to survive) read it and found that the work communicated their experience in a way they never thought possible? What do we even do with stories that are not entertaining in the least, but have technical proficiency? I find Perle really @#$%ing boring, but it's a technically proficient medieval poem written by a master in Middle English (whose name is lost to time). I much prefer Gawain and the Green Knight from the same author. But if you said, "I want to write a poem that deals with visions and dreams," it would be on the short list since it's one of the best dream vision poems out there.

Is the point to be obscure, opaque, ambiguous? Why would you do that? Is the point to be straightforward, cliche, pulpy? Why would you do that? If the point is to be obscure, opaque, and ambiguous, and the work achieves that goal, then is it a success even if 75% of readers scratch their heads after finishing it? If the goal of a story is to provide a fun or entertaining story, but it uses a bunch of tired tropes and cliches to do it, is it a success?

What about a work that has the stated goal of X, but instead achieves a different goal entirely? We see it with attempts at satire and parody all the time where the audience just doesn't get it, but loves it anyway. What of a work with a stated goal of X, but it just never quite achieves that goal, but people love it regardless? (I'm looking at you, John Milton. Don't think we forgot about the explicitly stated theodicy in Paradise Lost.)

What about times when censorship actually makes a work better or more popular? Did the censorship add clarity to the writing by making it more culturally acceptable to its audience? (Yes, Bill, I'm looking at you. Don't think we forgot about the origins of Falstaff.)

What I'm getting at here is that we may not even agree on the fundamental point of storytelling in the first place. Or even have the same goal every time something is written. Some writers and audiences might prefer the the mental fun of reading a work that is deliberately obscure, opqaue, and ambuguous. Others might not. And it might even be a question of mood.

There is a broader appeal to more understandable works, to be sure. But then again, some of these more understandable works aren't as easy to understand as they may appear when you actually pay attention. (Yes, Malory, that was directed at you. And yes, some readers did pay attention to Arthur's dialog and actions at crucial points in the story. Dysfunction junction, what's your function, indeed.)

Hmm...I guess it's a bit like the old adage, "If you have to explain the joke, then it's no longer funny." But then again, maybe you are in front of the wrong audience. Or you didn't hit the punchline. ;)

Nah, you just need a snare drum.

1708369858816.png
 
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Nah, you just need a snare drum.
So that explains it. :D

I'll just say for me (especially as it was LD's look at my work that started the discussion - and thank you again, LD!) that I tend to somewhat agree with @Director in that if more than two people are talking, some descriptor is necessary to suggest who is speaking. At least in my reading. However, I tend to find the use of "said" rather boring invisible or no. I like to use my descriptors to show more about my characters if possible. That said (and as admitted to in the work) I can certainly overuse them. A bad habit is hard to break. ;)
 
I have attempted court meter and it is very difficult. As you know there are different styles. As I don't know Norse, this would be a modern English adaptation. What I've settled on in my practice attempts is an adapted court meter with elements that are common to the dróttkvætt style. For some reasons related to plotting, I've also played around with galdralag style. I think the results would actually be a mix of prose and different styles depending upon the tale told.

Galdralag would work best with dialogue, me-thinks, though I've always found the structure of drottkvaet intriguing. Just watch your kennings and alliterations :). TBH, if you could write a complete AAR in court metre and keep it consistent, I'd nominate you for a Nobel Prize in literature.

As an aside, I appeared in a few volumes of the Heroes in Hell series by Janet Morris. One of my yarns featured Snorri Sturuson and Robert E. Howard taking on a pack of hell-hounds.

The beginning of the discussion is in the mistake of differentiating, thus it already falls behind the initial argument that is intended to be the core. It is needless to repeat, yet apparently crucial, that say as a verb is by itself an action descriptor of the character, the story, the scene, the dialogue, the monologue, the act, the part, the endless forms of the piece.

While the basis of specification by Lord Durham comes from simplifying the text against giving more details in expense of the alleged risk for complicating the narrative, with the shield it hides itself named a school of thought, all is redundant.

Yes, said is a transitive verb. Not sure if you understood what the gist of the original post was about or you're just being pedantic.

Agreed. But in the context of selling your work.. yes, you should know what an editor and an audience will like. Creative license is absolute, but getting published and paid is not. Here on the forum, you can write the most abstract, abstruse, complex and creatively brilliant piece of opaque, obscure and literarily magnificent prose you want. I believe few people will read it and fewer will comment, but you certainly have the freedom to go to it, alone though you may be. I always told my students, "Yes - you can do anything you want, if you are willing to pay the price for it."

Couldn't have said it better myself (which is probably why I let you say it ... ;) ). The 1/2 to 1 cent days of the 60s still exist in this day and age. It was pretty good money back in the Golden Age of Pulp, but that was some 90 years ago. Then there's the dreaded 'Royalties on Sales', which I refer to as the 'carrot and stick' method of promising pay IF there are enough sales to cover the publisher's costs. Got roped into that a few times.

Bottom line. AARland is a great place to practice and experiment, but once you step outside it's a totally different ballgame.

Don't worry. I won't invoke my doctoral work on medieval and early modern translation theory if you keep your MA thesis out of it. :D

I'm impressed with the qualifications shown here. Personally, I'm from the School of Hard Knocks, though I was just a step or two away from attaching a P.Eng to my name. There's still the UEL I qualify for.

OK. I don't really have anything of intelligence to add. I'm just enjoying the renewed 'airplay' the SolAARium has enjoyed the past few days. Here's to hoping it continues.
 
I'm just enjoying the renewed 'airplay' the SolAARium has enjoyed the past few days. Here's to hoping it continues.
It is good to have it open and active!
Galdralag would work best with dialogue, me-thinks, though I've always found the structure of drottkvaet intriguing. Just watch your kennings and alliterations :). TBH, if you could write a complete AAR in court metre and keep it consistent, I'd nominate you for a Nobel Prize in literature.
That is far beyond my skills. But this thread has encouraged me to share some of my experiments, perhaps in the coming weeks.
As an aside, I appeared in a few volumes of the Heroes in Hell series by Janet Morris. One of my yarns featured Snorri Sturuson and Robert E. Howard taking on a pack of hell-hounds.
Will certainly need to hunt that down. Would be interesting to see what you did with Snorri as a character. From the historic record, he was quite the character already, so perhaps you didn't need to embellish much?
 
Understood. Sincere apologies, it was an unnecessary post, and will be deleted.
A bit sad that @filcat deleted that post. Realizing that there are different points of view and different philosophies regarding the approach to storytelling and the author's interaction with the audience, that post was actually quite insightful in regards to how @filcat approaches his AAR currently. Yes, it may have been a tangent, when it comes to dialogue. Wishing now I had copied it down though.
 
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A bit sad that @filcat deleted that post. Realizing that there are different points of view and different philosophies regarding the approach to storytelling and the author's interaction with the audience, that post was actually quite insightful in regards to how @filcat approaches his AAR currently. Yes, it may have been a tangent, when it comes to dialogue. Wishing now I had copied it down though.

I just thought he was trivializing the subject and splitting hairs over verb usage, implying the topic itself wasn't worth discussing. I certainly didn't want him to delete the post. Guess he saw me being as a bit too harsh, and for that I apologize.
 
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I just thought he was trivializing the subject and splitting hairs over verb usage, implying the topic itself wasn't worth discussing. I certainly didn't want him to delete the post. Guess he saw me being as a bit too harsh, and for that I apologize.
Only @filcat can tell us about his reaction.
Personally, I like having the SolAARium reopened. I like reading discussions of process and mechanics, when it comes to story-telling.
However, as we all know, discussions about these topics evoke passions.
Perhaps it's time for us to retire to the bAAR for some refreshments instead?
 
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