• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Ah, the plot thicens, both kingdoms are in a simmilar situation. A machiavelian-but-patriotic regent wating untill the sole heir is old enough to rule. I wonder will both kids meet at some point, before this happens? And what will the reforms look like?

By the way thanks Baricula and Bananfish for the detailed answer to my question :)
 
I loved the measured, rational negotiations between Wangdue and Li. It gives one hope that a lasting peace could be secured. Of course, the rapport is entirely between the two individuals, not between the states or societies, so it is sadly precarious, as shown by Zhengu's reaction on Song's side, and the assassination attempt on Ming's side. I can't help but fear that this opportunity for peace will be gone in no time at all.

Excellent update. Oh, and good luck with the exams! :)
 
Oh, and good luck with the exams! :)

May you bring honor to your ancestors, achieve a jinshi degree, and win a coveted posting in Su Hang.
 
Cixi was the only one to wield anything close to real power in her own right (as opposed to simply influencing the actions of an Emperor), but she was born after 1821 so she doesn't count.
No, there were others. Many, many, others. Especially in the case of mental illness of the child (Emperor).
 
No, there were others. Many, many, others. Especially in the case of mental illness of the child (Emperor).

No, there weren't.
 
No, there weren't.

Empress Dowagers with significant power:

Han dynasty:

Lü Zhi - Regent from 188 till death 180 B.C.
Wang Zhengjun - influential over 5 Han emperors and helped orchestrate the brief Xin dynasty placing her own clan on the throne (Emperor Wang Mang)
Deng Sui - Regent from 106 till death in 121 A.D.
Liang Na - Regent for 3 emperors, coup followed her death

Tang dynasty:

Wu Zetian - reigned as empress in her own right over recreated Zhou dynasty (14 years)
 
Have you ever heard of the power behind the throne? If not then none of the Shoguns of Japan never had any "real power."

Clearly you either haven't read the original question and my responses, or you have and don't understand them (not to mention Japanese history and the roles of Heads of Government).

The original comment arose out of the opposition of Queen Li's rule in the AAR based on her gender, power behind the throne is utterly irrelevant (as it is not real power to the extent of Li or RL Wu Zetian).
 
Clearly you either haven't read the original question and my responses, or you have and don't understand them (not to mention Japanese history and the roles of Heads of Government).

The original comment arose out of the opposition of Queen Li's rule in the AAR based on her gender, power behind the throne is utterly irrelevant (as it is not real power to the extent of Li or RL Wu Zetian).
I was using the Shogunate as an example of ruling from behind the throne, clearly you missed the point. In regards towards women ruling behind the throne there are a number of examples. Apart from the list of Han Dowagers who ruled in the name of their children, there are several others that did the same during the Age of Fragmentation. To say that no woman ever had the same power as Li is just flat out wrong. For instance there is the Empress Dowager Feng who overthrew Yifu Han and ruled with complete control over the court until her son reached an age where he could rule on his own.

We have other instances of Empresses ruling behind the throne of mentally deficient Emperors, such as with the Jin Dynasty.
 
I was using the Shogunate as an example of ruling from behind the throne, clearly you missed the point. In regards towards women ruling behind the throne there are a number of examples. Apart from the list of Han Dowagers who ruled in the name of their children, there are several others that did the same during the Age of Fragmentation. To say that no woman ever had the same power as Li is just flat out wrong. For instance there is the Empress Dowager Feng who overthrew Yifu Han and ruled with complete control over the court until her son reached an age where he could rule on his own.

We have other instances of Empresses ruling behind the throne of mentally deficient Emperors, such as with the Jin Dynasty.

This is not the history forum, Shoguns were not regents, regents and dowagers did not rule in their own name and so did not have the same power as Wu Zetian. End of discussion.
 
This is not the history forum, Shoguns were not regents, regents and dowagers did not rule in their own name and so did not have the same power as Wu Zetian. End of discussion.
Li of this story did not rule in her name either as seen with her seal in the last update.

Shoguns were not regents, but often had defacto control of the country. As I said, I was using them as an example of ruling behind the throne.

You will note I did not compare any other Dowagers to Wu Zetian, the only female Emperor of China. I did, however, state that there were others with power similar to Empress Dowager Li inside this AAR. And that Cixi was not the only one to ever come close to ruling in her own right, as there were many others such as Empress Dowager Feng.
 
This is not the history forum, Shoguns were not regents, regents and dowagers did not rule in their own name and so did not have the same power as Wu Zetian. End of discussion.
Since this is not the history forum and is in fact one very specific alt-history thread, why are you having this longwinded discussion?
 
Since this is not the history forum and is in fact one very specific alt-history thread, why are you having this longwinded discussion?

Because we don't have an update yet!
 
Because we don't have an update yet!
:rofl:

Exams are over, and I am back! Roughest semester I've had yet... years in liberal arts have made me complacent! Quick note: this will be the third update not to make it out of 1365... the AAR's pace isn't slowing to a case of Hercules chasing the tortoise, I just find this period to be particularly important. Certain future decades may be summed up in a few paragraphs. Basically, I have certain periods I'll focus on in minute detail, but others I'll gloss over. Just to lay out my intentions. (Less than halfway through playing the campaign, and I already have grandiose ideas about carrying this into Vicky 2...)

@Edgewise, Tanzhang, Bagricula, scholar: Well, the lovely Lady Wu was the only official empress regnant. It's debatable whether the various dowagers/mothers held "real" power (as y'all have shown :laugh:) or even how to define "real" power. I'd say at least Lü Zhi was the "true" sovereign during her brief reign (check out Concubine Qi's Wikipedia entry for a particularly gruesome tale.) But most of the powerful women I can think of lived either during the Han Dynasty or rode in Wu Zetian's wake (Shangguan Wan'er and Princess Taiping being my two personal favorites for the latter period.) I don't know of a single Song or Ming-era empress who had any real power. There were regents, but their reigns don't seem to be much more than footnotes.

Neo-Confucianism, while it synthesized various religious traditions and helped forge a spiritually pluralistic Chinese society, was really misogynistic. There's a saying from the time, ascribed to Confucius (they did this a lot), that went something like, "A woman who rules is like a hen that crows." There's another good one about the great fear that a man may grow up weak and spineless, but the greater fear that a woman will grow up independently-minded. And a really sweet poem about how you should mistreat girl as infants to teach them from birth that their life is to serve. (And foot-binding, but for my only edit to pre-1356 history, I'm saying that never happened in my timeline.) A lot of the woman hate came from Taoism's yin/yang dichotomy, but it's mostly just the times and certainly not an indictment of a specific culture or religion. Sadly, it's not like any of the other "civilized" societies around the world really cared for women either.

There's another aspect to all this that places my Li character in a much more precarious situation, though. The concubine system meant that every emperor had a metric f**kton of kids. Dynasty changes were always generally from mass rebellion or foreign invasion because there were so many people in the imperial bloodline. Courts had the usual European-style backstabbing and intrigue, but it was all pretty much kept within the family. (Hell, after the real Yuanzhang died, his grandson became emperor but was deposed by Yongle, said grandson's half-uncle.) Not to mention that concubines who never produced a male were generally sent to nunneries (or killed), making every one of your dearly departed dad's old girlfriends who was still hanging around the mother of one of your half-brothers. So a woman's "regency" might be overlooked if she did a good job. But if any outsiders tried to cut in on the throne, they'd have a few dozen young men with potential claims on it ready to kick their ass. After Wu Zetian discarded the regent pretense, she basically played whack-a-mole with potential usurpers the rest of her life. She offed a lot of people, but to be fair, most of them really were trying to kill her. (Nevermind that she was an incredibly skilled ruler but ended up being turned into a cautionary tale about how awful a female in charge would be. Her rep wasn't rehabilitated until the 60's, when Mao's wife was trying to succeed him and found the fable still had a lot of political clout.)

I'm getting off the point, but yeah, that family-protection stuff? Li doesn't have it. Her kid got to be king because Yuanzhang's early death meant he was his only son. Other than the brother in Tianwan and nephew in Xiang, no adult Zhus exist to back Li's kid up. So it's pretty much open season on her, from "A woman?! Not in my throne room!" and "Well, as good an excuse as any..." types alike. I'd also meant the robes/seal stuff to communicate she was posturing herself to be the future de jure monarch... whether she pushes forward or relents after the assassination attempt is anyone's guess at this point.

@Ashantai: Thank you!

@Memento Mori: Mmm, I hadn't thought about them meeting... neither really becomes a major character. Li's kid (I don't even remember his name), once he reaches adulthood, basically keeps the throne warm while his mother holds the real power. Kaiwang is ineffectual, though not from lack of trying.

@Stuyvesant: Thanks! I hope I did alright... couple weeks to find out whether I should panic or not. :laugh:

@Odaly: Haha. I haven't found any good places to work them in... I have a couple in mind, but there just hasn't been a good spot yet.

@mayorqw: It is high praise! But I could only aspire to create something a tenth of what Baltikja is. Easily the most epic AAR I've had the pleasure to follow. :)
 
Chapter 11: Apostasy

broken-buddha.jpg

I love the lotus because while growing from mud, it is unstained.
-Zhou Dunyi

Zhu Yuanzhang conquered the city of Nanjing in 1356. Although he'd spent years pledged to a Buddhist monastery and rose to prominence fighting for the Red Turban Army, he discarded his past and promoted himself as a champion of Confucian values. Disenfranchised scholar-bureaucrats flocked to the Ming court and built it into an efficient, organized government. With civil war tearing the countryside apart, Nanjing became an oasis of stability that attracted tens of thousands from all across China. By the time of Yuanzhang's death in 1359, the city eclipsed even Hangzhou as the most populous in the Middle Kingdom.

With Nanjing's explosion of growth and prosperity still fresh in their minds, the men in change of the Song government each arrive at the same conclusion: nothing would benefit the kingdom more than dismantling the White Lotus Society.

Prime Minister Wangyi and Marshal Wongkwai at first work in secret. They dare not bring the idea to Wangdue. Although the chancellor has proven himself quite the pragmatist, he remains a devout Buddhist. And while the White Lotus and Red Turban millenarianism has little in common with Wangdue's “purer” Mahayana beliefs, the man could conceivably balk at destroying the Buddhist group that backed Han Lin'er in the first place. Zhenghu... well, they already know what Zhenghu will think. The young “general” deludes himself with fantasies of being Lin'er's spiritual successor. Although they've kept the barely-literate peasant marginalized at court, if he manages to discover their plot, he might do anything in an attempt to stop it.

The end of a war necessitates a flurry of paperwork. Soon after Queen Li's departure, Wangyi manages to amend the Ministry of Rites' official priesthood registers without catching the censors' attention.* The change strikes the White Lotus and Red Turban groups from the “approved” list of Buddhist sects and reclassifies every priest and monk registered under those categories as a heretic. He goes one step further and revokes certain land grants Lin'er made to his supporters, redistributing them to less politically-inclined peasants.

1365-land-reform.jpg

Wongkwai focuses on the military. He personally detests the idea of mass conscription. Fodder, in his mind, can be got whenever necessary, and the miniscule difference between a poorly trained and an untrained soldier hardly justifies the effort. To this end, he slashes the size of the army and institutes brutal training regimens meant to transform those left into professional warriors. Uncoincidentally, most of those drummed out of service are Red Turbans, who arrive “home” to find their lands are no longer theirs.

1365-stab-hit.png

The marshal's heavy-handedness wrecks the stability of the Song Kingdom, and Wangdue orders the Censorate to launch an immediate inquest into the cause. Wangyi and Wongkwai come clean with the chancellor; to their relief, he agrees with their methods, although they receive a lengthy tirade about going behind his back.

But with the disenfranchisement of the White Lotus Society now confirmed to be part of the government's agenda, it isn't long until Jibi Zhenghu finds out.

Zhenghu bursts through the door to Wangdue's office, face sanguine, eyes about ready to burst from their sockets. “What the hell do you think you're doing?”

The monk sets down his brush and turns in his seat to face the man. “I was just drafting a decree, actually, if y--”

“Shut up! Shut up! You know what I mean! It's that bitch Li, isn't it? You've made a pact with a demon! Or Wongkwai, or Wangyi, or, or...”

“Calm yourself! If you have something to say, then say it! But if all you plan to do is babble like an idiot, then stop wasting my time.”

“Who branded the White Lotus Society as heretics? Who expelled them from the army and stole their lands? That's all I want to know. If it wasn't you, then just tell m--”

“It was me.” Better to take responsibility than let others think they can get away such subterfuge.

Zhenghu glares a hole through Wangdue's skull. “You... you bastard! If Lin'er wa--”

“Lin'er is dead! And if it wasn't for me, this kingdom would have died with him."

“I'd rather see it burn to the ground than stay in your hands.”

Wangdue recoils from the young man. He'd watched Zhenghu grow more and more disillusioned since his mentor's death, but Wangdue hadn't suspected the zealotry could run this deep. Although Lin'er himself was an idealist, he still listened to reason when necessary. But this fanaticism... for the first time, Wangdue appreciates what a threat the cults really are.

“Zhenghu, do you mean that?”

“Yes.” He doesn't even pause to think.

“Very well, then. Guards!”

Zhenghu lunges at the monk. He tackles him. They crash to the ground. Zhenghu presses his knees into Wangdue's chest and his thumbs into his windpipe. Two guards rush in. One clubs the back of the young man's head with the pole of his spear. Zhenghu's grip on Wangdue's throat loosens. Wangdue pushes the unconscious man off his chest and stands, brushing the dirt off his robes.

“Sir, are you alright?”

“Yes, I'm fine.” He pulls a hand-mirror out of his desk drawer. Two round, purple bruises glow on his neck. “Bring this one to State Affairs. Have them strip him of his rank and banish him to the countryside. I don't want to see him in Hangzhou again.”

The guards bow and drag the limp body away. Wangdue picks up his chair and sits at his desk. Unfazed by the boy's attack, he draws up three royal decrees, his brushstrokes steady and firm. The first two merely revise official state dogma. The title of Maitreya Buddha is tied to the Song throne and passes down the line of succession, and the White Lotus Army derives its name from Confucian roots. The third, however, carries far more weight: “Any who adhere to the treasonous, vile, occult beliefs of the White Lotus or Red Turbans are to repent and join a sanctioned Buddhist denomination. Those who do not will either leave the kingdom forever, or face death.”

1365-mahayana.jpg

The Ministry of Justice's secret police work with the reformed White Lotus Army to carry out the brutal inquisition. Most of the heretics are more than willing to recant, on account of the young movement's political nature and its messianic prophecies having been disproved with Lin'er's demise. The few ardent believers are rounded up and marched west. But in November, a small force attacks the procession's light military escort and rallies the exiled Red Turbans as an army. And at the head of that army is Jibi Zhenghu.**

1365-zhenghu.jpg

Zhenghu's pitiful attempt to seize the Song throne is cut short by Wongkwai and the White Lotus Army. Although many of Zhenghu's rebels had served during the war against the Yuan, they prove no match for Wongkwai's modern, efficient, and masterfully trained army. “Capture their leader alive,” the marshal tells his troops before the inevitable victory. “I want to see what the chancellor will do to him.” After the battle is won and most of the rebels have been slaughtered, Wongkwai's soldiers bring him Zhenghu. The young man actually tries to win Wongkwai over, speaks of overthrowing the “paper-pushing bureaucracy” and putting the military in control of the kingdom. The marshal laughs in his face. “All I ask,” he says, “is that a kingdom tell me who to conquer. Why would I care to run the system myself?”

Wangdue Sengge sits upon the Song throne when the guards tell him the prisoner has arrived. Zhenghu is thrown at Wangdue's feet. The impetuous young man stands up, bound in chains, and stares at the chancellor with deadened eyes.

“So,” Wangdue says, pulling at his own beard, “do you have anything to say?”

“To you? No.”

“I haven't yet decided what to do with you,” Wangdue says. “And I would find it distasteful to imprison one who fought to found this kingdom.”

Zhenghu spits on the palace floor. “Tell that to those you exiled.”

“Recant, Zhenghu, and I will welcome you back. Denounce the... dangerous cult you've aligned yourself with, and you can have everything you used to have, and more.”

“Never.”

“Then I must have you placed under arre--”

The boy tuts and shakes his head. “Wangdue. If you banish me, I will return. If you imprison me, I will escape. You've aligned yourself with demons, and I will never stop until this kingdom is set right!”

Wangdue stands and points at the young man. “God damn it, Zhenghu! Do not force my hand!”

“There's nothing you could do that would make me throw away everything I believe in.”

Wangdue steels himself. He'd been honest when he said he wanted to spare the boy. Despite the assault two months ago, despite the insurrection, Zhenghu is a hero of the Song Kingdom. But, if he has no other choice...

“Very well. Under the authority vested upon me by the Song Kingdom, I hereby sentence you to death by beheading.”

Zhenghu grunts. “Is that the best you can do?”

“Let there be no record of the execution of Jibi Zhenghu. He died as he lived, fighting those who would oppose the authority of the kingdom. Sadly, he was slain in battle, leading his troops against the White Lotus insurgency. So be it.”

The young man's eyes widen in shock. “No!” Two guards grab him by his arms and begin to pull him out of the room. Zhenghu shakes them off for a moment. He yells, “You can't do this, Wangdue! You can't change history!” The guards restrain him and drag him away.

“I can do anything I want.”

The door slams shut.



-----
*The Royal Censorate was an important component of the Department of Edict Examination. Although Edict Examination was established mostly as a panel of advisors, the Censorate was responsible for weeding out corruption and malfeasance in State Affairs and the Secretariat. They reported directly to the king or his regent: paradoxically, in this case, the Chancellor of the Secretariat himself.

**((I have no idea if the leader's name was randomly generated [probability of my getting a specific name is about a tenth of one percent] or if the game can cull generals and make them pretenders, but this is one of the coolest things I've ever seen in an EU3 game. I only noticed the name afterward when going through screenshots, so at the time I didn't check whether he'd been deleted as a general. But my notes from a year later say, “Huh, I guess Zhenghu died,” which leads me to believe I never got the “grand funeral” popup and he actually was deleted and made a rebel by the game engine.))
 
You brought up linguistic changes. Baltikja comes with the territory :D
Sad to see that Buddhism seems to be posponed to never :(. The Church shall return! And it seems Zhenghu couldn't handle it... I hoped he'd been more level-headed, instead of rebelling... But a new course has been set for the Song Kingdom! Let's see how it will fare. And I'm drooling over what you'll do in Victoria :happy: