Fleshing out the minors

[Gurkhal]

This is a thread for ideas about additions to minor nations, at start, so that they can get some flavor and make them interesting to play.

I hope to be able to throw in some interesting stuff in regards to Thebes, Athens, Sparta, Messenia, Troizon, Corinth, Megara and Argos, at least. But I don't promise anything and if anyone has ideas, please feel free to post them as well.

Anyway, first out is Thebes.

Thebes

House of Kadmos - An event where a person shows up and its rumored this person is a direct descendent of Kadmos, the founder of Thebes. The player can let the ruler marry this character and so change the ruling family name to "Kadmidae" (or what it should be in proper ancient Greek at this time) and gain the personality trait "Bloodline of Kadmos" with bonuses to Oratory and Finess, and if the ruler is of this bloodline then gain Casus Belli on all Boiotia and a bonus to the family's prestige.

If possible this could only be fired one time during the game and so not milked by every new family that gets to rule Thebes.

Distant friends - An event with visitors from far away and the player's ruler can get friends and positive relations with Levantine or Persian character or state. The fluff itself may be a minor member of such a state's elite, a merchant or something else.

Curse of blindness – An event where interaction between characters are affected by a blindness, in one way or another, of the participants leading to unforeseen results. Not seldom of a tragic nature but some times also to joy and prosperity. The common thread should however be that just like Pentheus, Oedipus and Creon are all blind to what they are doing, and stumbles into disaster when the truth is finally revealed to them so the characters come into situations where unforseen consequences lies behind seemingly obvious solutions to the situations.

Just like with the "House of Kadmos" it would be nice if there are several different situations, and none can be brought up more than once in a single game, and all of them will not show up in a single game either.

Melting pot: Kadmean culture: Mix between Greek and Levantine in a state with both Boiotian and Levantine cultures, and ruled by Thebes or where a ruler of Thebes is married to a spouse of the Levantine culture. Possibly allowing the player to decide if the Kadmean culture should lean towards the Greek or Levantine part of its composition.

 

[Gurkhal]

Priesthoods

One aspect that I've been thinking a bit about is to make the priesthoods of the game more relevant and make it a bit more interactive with the player. As such I will propose two ideas. 1. Priestly offices and 2. International priesthood (a rather bad name but that's what I came up with).

1. The idea here is that any holy site for a deity provides a priest office to the one who controls that site and as such gets various small bonuses and stuff. And perhaps most importantly, in many cultures and religions it would allow women to hold office as priestess was an official office that was open to women also in historical games, unlike the more worldy spheres of the state which men, in general, obstructed women, in general, from holding office.

2. My idea is that just like every other Pdx game has religious international organizations, the Pope being the most common example in both EU and CK, so there could be stuff in Imperator. I am here thinking about the druids and possibly the Zoroastrian priesthood which could be considered less tied to a specific state than a religious organization reaching over and between the tribes and states of their lay adherents. And I think there could also be examples of this in India but since I know to little on the subject I won't comment further.

 

[vyshan]

Priesthoods

One aspect that I've been thinking a bit about is to make the priesthoods of the game more relevant and make it a bit more interactive with the player. As such I will propose two ideas. 1. Priestly offices and 2. International priesthood (a rather bad name but that's what I came up with).

1. The idea here is that any holy site for a deity provides a priest office to the one who controls that site and as such gets various small bonuses and stuff. And perhaps most importantly, in many cultures and religions it would allow women to hold office as priestess was an official office that was open to women also in historical games, unlike the more worldy spheres of the state which men, in general, obstructed women, in general, from holding office.

2. My idea is that just like every other Pdx game has religious international organizations, the Pope being the most common example in both EU and CK, so there could be stuff in Imperator. I am here thinking about the druids and possibly the Zoroastrian priesthood which could be considered less tied to a specific state than a religious organization reaching over and between the tribes and states of their lay adherents. And I think there could also be examples of this in India but since I know to little on the subject I won't comment further.

I agree on both counts. Priesthoods were something I really wanted to see with the religion update. I want the roman Collegium and their stuff as well as the Vestal Virgins. I wanted the Oracle of Delphi and other oracles. Characters who have the traits of devoted or zealous might try and become priests or priestess of your religion's priesthoods.

 

[Álvaro Núñez de Lara]

Here's another idea which I suggested in the old "Rome II Suggestions" thread think could be included for increased domestic politics; land owning.

This was both an issue in ancient Greece throughout its history from Archaic to Hellenistic times and also, as most probably know, a big one in Rome that created much conflict between socio-economical classes. And I would imagine that land holding and land owning was also a very important issue in other cultures and places across the ancient world.

I hope to get back to this with a more in-depth suggestion later but for now I'll present this.

Land Owning

Each province has a value to the agricultural lands it possesses. Mountains will have less, the Nile-valley will have more and so on. Now to this also comes value as to who owns what and there are four candidates; local Freemen or local Citizens, a character from a great family or the state itself.

If Freemen or Citizens owns the land then the happiness and productivity of those POPs will be agumented in accordance with the wealth they can draw from the agricultural lands in their possession. Likewise there's a penalty to the happiness of the Freemen in accordance with how disproportionally they don't own land after their make-up of the population.

If a character from a great family owns the land then they draw a direct income from that land.

If the state owns the land then there's an income to the state from the land and the ability to essentially sell it to either Freemen, Citizens or a character, or even give it as a reward.

To this comes this mechanic.

There's a constant dripping loss of control over land from all possibler owners towards characters, representing their ability to corrupt official or pressure smaller farmers to allow the magnates to increase their estates. Big examples of this is the concentration of wealth in Hellenistic Sparta, Republican Rome and the political turmoil in Archaic Athens over lands and related issues.

Really like this.

 

[Gurkhal]

Very small suggestion

Rural Shrine

That is that we can construct shrine(s) also in areas which are not cities. These would give freemen and tribesmen a bonus to happiness as they are direct more towards local religion but would both give options to build and also emphatize that in the ancient world there was a population outside of the cities as well.

And perhaps it would be more fitting for "barbarian" people who have few cities if they would be able to have sacred groves, holy mountains and so on as a focus for thei religion with support from the central government.

 

[Samitte]

Very small suggestion

Rural Shrine

That is that we can construct shrine(s) also in areas which are not cities. These would give freemen and tribesmen a bonus to happiness as they are direct more towards local religion but would both give options to build and also emphatize that in the ancient world there was a population outside of the cities as well.

And perhaps it would be more fitting for "barbarian" people who have few cities if they would be able to have sacred groves, holy mountains and so on as a focus for thei religion with support from the central government.

Fully agreed, just made a similar suggestion myself.

 

[vyshan]

Very small suggestion

Rural Shrine

That is that we can construct shrine(s) also in areas which are not cities. These would give freemen and tribesmen a bonus to happiness as they are direct more towards local religion but would both give options to build and also emphatize that in the ancient world there was a population outside of the cities as well.

And perhaps it would be more fitting for "barbarian" people who have few cities if they would be able to have sacred groves, holy mountains and so on as a focus for thei religion with support from the central government.

I support that, Though this isn't just for Barbarians. Greeks had plenty of sacred caves, groves, mountains and rivers as well.

 

[Gurkhal]

This is just a loose idea that I thought that I should mention,

Citizen and Professional Soldiers

This mostly drawn from a Greco-Roman perspective but I suppose that it can reasonbly be used on other places as well.

The idea is that you can have two different kinds of military systems; Citizen troops and professional troops.

The main difference is that in peace citizen soldiers are free of upkeep and are mobilized at the outset of war from the different provinces and then gathered together. The composition of the army is determined by the population so that Nobles provides heavy cavalry and some light cavalry, citizens provide heavy infantry and some light cavalry while freemen and tribesmen provide light infantry and archers. To this comes local cultural stuff like camels, elephants and so on. But when mobilized the citizen soldiers have a massive upkeep cost, like +30% every month. This would mean that citizen armies allows states to punch above their weight in local wars but restricts them from going into longer campaigns and that a population possessing arms can use those arms against a government they are angry with.

Professional soldiers would work as armies works right now.

 

[Gurkhal]

Another really minor suggestion and this time not even around the Greeks.

I was checking around to see which magnificent Greek state I would play next and I took a look at the Cybelene religion's description and noticed it mentions that the religion is involved with "idols". I would suggest that this wording is changed as "idol" is to my knowledge a deregatory monotheistic description of a cult image and that "idol" is changed to "cult image".

 

[Gurkhal]

Expanding the Cybelene Pantheon

Given the rich historical mythology of Anatolia the Cybelene pantheon is a bit thin on deities in my opinion. But I didn't want to copy-paste a bunch of Bronze Age deities which may or may not have still been kept around in some form by the Anatolians.

If someone with some more knowledge about Anatolian religion would like to make a comment, for or against, that would be appreciated.

Basis

For a basis I went to the "Encyclopedia Britannica" which I hope will be an acceptable source of information, along with Wikipedia for specific deities.

Here's the article on Anatolian religion

Anatolian religion | Ancient Beliefs & Practices

Anatolian religion, beliefs and practices of the ancient peoples and civilizations of Turkey and Armenia, including the Hittites, Hattians, Luwians, Hurrians, Assyrian colonists, Urartians, and Phrygians. For historical background, see Anatolia. Until comparatively recent times, the pre-Christian

www.britannica.com

And here's a Wikipedia article on the guy who wrote the article with the link above

Oliver Gurney - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now this info can be a bit dated but I think that its better with info that's a bit dated from a real scholar than me trying to make guesswork on what could work for inclusion to expand the Cybelene pantheon. But the conclusion of the article says there was a a continuing core in Anatolian polytheism in the shape of a mother goddess, a weather god, their son and a hunting god associated with deer.

The mother goddess and her son are already added in the shape of Cybele and Attis. So I suggest the addition of the weather god and hunting god as well.

Suggested additions from the article

Weather God: Hurrian - Teshub, Luwian - Tarhunz, Hittite - Tarhunna

Teshub - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tarḫunz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tarḫunna - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hunting God: Hittite - Kurunta, Luwian - Runtiya

Runtiya - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kurunta (god) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Samitte]

I think some of the names should give pause before continueing: Hittites, Hurrians, Urartu. None of these are in game. The Cybelene/Anatolian pantheon has evolved from its ancient roots. The game is closer to Constantine then to the Hittites.

Versions of these can be attested, the more general Tarhunt is a passed-down version of the weather god which should probably be the basic version for the whole religion. Culturally specific deities include the Lycian Trqqas, other native and local versions of the mother-goddess deity, like Eni Mahanahi for the Lycians. Or a deity like Maljia, who fits in a similar category as Nane and Athena.

But I have to respectfully disagree that any remnants of long gone cultures be brought back in. Armenia is already suffering from this wierd half-Urartian version of its religion. The game doesn't need more Bronze Age relics, we've got an awesome mod for that already.

Edit: I've got a W.I.P. list of new deities here.

I've been slowly increasing it in side as things show up in my research.

EDIT2: You've got some really good suggestions in the rest of the thread though. I especially would like to see the Priesthood getting a larger/more interesting role. This is something that is super relevant to the Near East that could add so much flavour.

 

[Gurkhal]

I think some of the names should give pause before continueing: Hittites, Hurrians, Urartu. None of these are in game. The Cybelene/Anatolian pantheon has evolved from its ancient roots. The game is closer to Constantine then to the Hittites.

Indeed. My intention was not to suggest specific deities but that the concept of a Weather God or a Hunting God was widespread in the area and not limited to a specfic culture or area. By mentioning the presence of a the kind of god that are mentioned as a continuing presence in the articled I linked to above about Anatolian religion I was trying to make a point for the inclusion of said Weather God and Hunting God in one form or another into the Cybelene pantheon.

Versions of these can be attested, the more general Tarhunt is a passed-down version of the weather god which should probably be the basic version for the whole religion. Culturally specific deities include the Lycian Trqqas, other native and local versions of the mother-goddess deity, like Eni Mahanahi for the Lycians. Or a deity like Maljia, who fits in a similar category as Nane and Athena.

Looks like excellent additions that could and should be added.

But I have to respectfully disagree that any remnants of long gone cultures be brought back in. Armenia is already suffering from this wierd half-Urartian version of its religion. The game doesn't need more Bronze Age relics, we've got an awesome mod for that already.

Edit: I've got a W.I.P. list of new deities here.

I've been slowly increasing it in side as things show up in my research.

Until we get the research done we'll have to do with anachronisms to fill the gaps and if being proven wrong is the price for raising interesting topics, then its something that I'll happily pay. I'd like to express my support for your thread on deities as I had not seen that thread before and I hope you'll get to add more stuff and also that the devs will take a look when the times comes to flesh out the pantheons some more.

Although in regards to Bronze Age relics I feel that in my defense I must point out that there was a great deal of continuation in both Mesopotamia and the Levant even if things were not in a stasis field. Thus its my opinion that its perfectly reasonble to see Bronze Age deities show up in one form or another much later in the Classical era. Like Cybele for example. Her Greco-Roman form may well have been very different from earlier Great Goddesses in Anatolia but I would contest any claim that Cybele was without predecent in earlier Anatolian pantheons.

EDIT2: You've got some really good suggestions in the rest of the thread though. I especially would like to see the Priesthood getting a larger/more interesting role. This is something that is super relevant to the Near East that could add so much flavour.

Thanks.

 

[Samitte]

Until we get the research done we'll have to do with anachronisms to fill the gaps and if being proven wrong is the price for raising interesting topics, then its something that I'll happily pay. I'd like to express my support for your thread on deities as I had not seen that thread before and I hope you'll get to add more stuff and also that the devs will take a look when the times comes to flesh out the pantheons some more.

Although in regards to Bronze Age relics I feel that in my defense I must point out that there was a great deal of continuation in both Mesopotamia and the Levant even if things were not in a stasis field. Thus its my opinion that its perfectly reasonble to see Bronze Age deities show up in one form or another much later in the Classical era. Like Cybele for example. Her Greco-Roman form may well have been very different from earlier Great Goddesses in Anatolia but I would contest any claim that Cybele was without predecent in earlier Anatolian pantheons.

Oh yeah there is great continuation, but there has been a chunk of new cultural influences that raced through Anatolia. Mesopotamian, Hellenic, Semitic, and Iranian influences, plus the arrival of the Phrygians (and probably proto-Armenians) and the nomadic invasions, changed much of the cultural landscape. To the point where I'm actually really struggling placing them within specific religions.

A few more general deities, preferably as 'young' as possible, could perhaps be added to bridge the gap, specifically Luwian. But there is no one worshipping Hittite deities anymore, and the Hurrian flame has been passed on to Armenia via the Urartians. (Aramazd, even though its name is clearly Iranian, is likely what Teshub became over the centuries of change, for example.)

EDIT: As a sidenote, to get an idea of who was worshipped in Hellenistic Anatolia, looking at the major religious centres is a good start. Places such as Oenoanda, Aizanoi, Pessinous, Xanthus, Sardis, and Ephesus are just treasure troves of information.

 

[Gurkhal]

Oh yeah there is great continuation, but there has been a chunk of new cultural influences that raced through Anatolia. Mesopotamian, Hellenic, Semitic, and Iranian influences, plus the arrival of the Phrygians (and probably proto-Armenians) and the nomadic invasions, changed much of the cultural landscape. To the point where I'm actually really struggling placing them within specific religions.

I am aware of the general changes across time. That's why I didn't just copy paste some Bronze Age deities or something but rather suggested that the continuation in deities can be a good way to see what reasonably should be part of the Cybelene pantheon.

Just place the deities where it makes most sense at the game start. In any game it won't be a 100% fit and so its probably better to just get it mostly right than agonize yourself into inaction because youi can't get it entirely right.

A few more general deities, preferably as 'young' as possible, could perhaps be added to bridge the gap, specifically Luwian. But there is no one worshipping Hittite deities anymore, and the Hurrian flame has been passed on to Armenia via the Urartians. (Aramazd, even though its name is clearly Iranian, is likely what Teshub became over the centuries of change, for example.)

That would be nice. Although I would say that while its unlikely that people worship deities under the names they were supported by the state during the Hittite period, I wouldn't be suprised if there was continuation of many deities even if name and aspects of them had changed very much. I find it unlikely that just because the state support stopped that people did a 180 degree turn around to stop to care about them entirely.

EDIT: As a sidenote, to get an idea of who was worshipped in Hellenistic Anatolia, looking at the major religious centres is a good start. Places such as Oenoanda, Aizanoi, Pessinous, Xanthus, Sardis, and Ephesus are just treasure troves of information.

Indeed. I can't say if I'll get around to it for real as I'm mostly focused on Greece but its reassuring that there's engaged people with interest in the topic to cover this.

 

[Gurkhal]

Courting favor in times of crisis

I was reading a little about the civil wars in Imperator and an idea struck me.

I suggest that when a civil war breaks out characters with low loyalty, by not abysimal low loyalty or loyalist rivals in the government, can approach the player and offer their support in exchange for holdings, money, a government position for themselves or a friend, or relative, of theirs or something else.

What I think this could offer could be more player agency, a chance to get a better grasp for how much opposition there really is against you in a civil war and also to give the player more oppertunities to interact rather than everything being handed to them by the AI.

 

[Gurkhal]

Division of Spoils

This is based on my personal experience with playing Imperator as smaller powers and I will happily admit that I have no particular historical example to draw on.

If you're a smaller power and allied or tributary to a larger power then the larger power becomes the war leader and after victory always takes all the spoils war. This means that for a small power you can't latch on to a larger power and get their help in carving out territories for yourself from other large powers. So either you must fight alone, against powers usually too strong for you to take on yourself, or you get major ally in and that major ally takes all the spoils after victory.

I have not found this to be particularly entertaining.

What I suggest is that the larger power becomes the war leader if the war broke out due to a declaration of war from a power other than the war leader, or if some ally or tributary of the war leader was attacked, that smaller power gets a nice title but the important part is that this lesser power is entitled to spoils at peace. Before the war leader can thus annex half of Syria in one go, that city-state ally who was the start of the war must be given a region or some other spoils, before the war leader gets like four or five regions.

 

[Gurkhal]

Marriage and courting

There's been some discussion about the presence of women characters being married almost instantly when coming into age in the game and for that, if it remains a problem, I would suggest the following solution. Let the player "tag" a character, man or woman, and when that character comes into age there's a message and the game pauses so that the player can get a chance to arrange a marriage with that character. I think it could solve this issue.

 

[Gurkhal]

I'm reading some about ancient Moab with an eye to making a suggestion on this country's inclusion into Imperator. And in my reading I found something that I didn't know about but made alot of sense to me, namely an explination to the use of ancestor veneration and social difference between cult to deities and ancestors, in a community.

EDITED: Reading about Moab has been put on hold for another project. Hopefully I'll pick up Moab again further down the line.

Ancestor Veneration/Cult

Now the gists about it, as I understood it, was this:

Cults to deities were communal and unifying as in the whole community got together and the cult was carried out for the common benefit. Like if Baal brings the rain, everybody benefits directly or indirectly. Same with if Anath gives victory in war as at the very least people won't get harmed by the defeated enemy. Thus these cults acts to bring the community together and form a sense of "we".

Ancestor cults are different in that they act to partition the community along family lines and is carried it for individual or familial benefit. As in if my ancestors screws over my business that only affects others indirectly, but boons from my ancestors are for my own benefit. But perhaps more importantly where sacrifices and such to deities are done for communal benefit, the ancestor veneration allows me to show off my importance and wealth difference in regards to the rest of the community without having to water it down by giving it a communal use. Hence it can, and probably was, used for social stratification within the community. Acting to form a sense of "us/me and them" within the community.

This importance for ancestor veneration was to my knowledge a part of the most of the map and period covered by Imperator.

Now how to bring the important aspect of ancestor veneration into Imperator? My suggestion is that a new building in "necropolis" is added to cover various great tombs, necropolis, grave fields and so on. And that it provides happiness for POPs in descending order. So that Nobles get the most, then comes Citizens and finally Freemen gets a bonuses to their happiness, and that this cuts across culture and polytheistic religious lines.

As well as events for the importance of ancestor veneration across almost all borders of society.

 

[Harlehus]

I get the notion that nation should be more unique and fleshed out but i don't think adding a few events to each nation will accomplish this. In fact i don't think this game needs more events.

 

[Gurkhal]

I get the notion that nation should be more unique and fleshed out but i don't think adding a few events to each nation will accomplish this. In fact i don't think this game needs more events.

Well I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally I love events and think they add some feeling to the numbers and thus they are very important for me in order to maintain the illusion that I am ruling over a state not adjusting different numbers for a desired outcome.

 

[Harlehus]

Well I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally I love events and think they add some feeling to the numbers and thus they are very important for me in order to maintain the illusion that I am ruling over a state not adjusting different numbers for a desired outcome.

I understand that point of view. And maybe it's because i don't roleplay that much. Personally i think most events in Imperator: Rome are bland and repetitive and i really hate that they pause the game. It breaks my immersion that i have to respond to mostly trivial events popping up quite frequently in order to continue playing, when i'm trying to run my empire.