Fleshing out the minors

[Gurkhal]

This is a thread for ideas about additions to minor nations, at start, so that they can get some flavor and make them interesting to play.

I hope to be able to throw in some interesting stuff in regards to Thebes, Athens, Sparta, Messenia, Troizon, Corinth, Megara and Argos, at least. But I don't promise anything and if anyone has ideas, please feel free to post them as well.

Anyway, first out is Thebes.

Thebes

House of Kadmos - An event where a person shows up and its rumored this person is a direct descendent of Kadmos, the founder of Thebes. The player can let the ruler marry this character and so change the ruling family name to "Kadmidae" (or what it should be in proper ancient Greek at this time) and gain the personality trait "Bloodline of Kadmos" with bonuses to Oratory and Finess, and if the ruler is of this bloodline then gain Casus Belli on all Boiotia and a bonus to the family's prestige.

If possible this could only be fired one time during the game and so not milked by every new family that gets to rule Thebes.

Distant friends - An event with visitors from far away and the player's ruler can get friends and positive relations with Levantine or Persian character or state. The fluff itself may be a minor member of such a state's elite, a merchant or something else.

Curse of blindness – An event where interaction between characters are affected by a blindness, in one way or another, of the participants leading to unforeseen results. Not seldom of a tragic nature but some times also to joy and prosperity. The common thread should however be that just like Pentheus, Oedipus and Creon are all blind to what they are doing, and stumbles into disaster when the truth is finally revealed to them so the characters come into situations where unforseen consequences lies behind seemingly obvious solutions to the situations.

Just like with the "House of Kadmos" it would be nice if there are several different situations, and none can be brought up more than once in a single game, and all of them will not show up in a single game either.

Melting pot: Kadmean culture: Mix between Greek and Levantine in a state with both Boiotian and Levantine cultures, and ruled by Thebes or where a ruler of Thebes is married to a spouse of the Levantine culture. Possibly allowing the player to decide if the Kadmean culture should lean towards the Greek or Levantine part of its composition.

 

[Samitte]

Well I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally I love events and think they add some feeling to the numbers and thus they are very important for me in order to maintain the illusion that I am ruling over a state not adjusting different numbers for a desired outcome.

I think events, both one-offs, rare, and common ones all help make the game feel much more alive. The one-offs often centre on specific tags or historical events and can become fun moments of choice during a campaign. And the more common ones there are, the less you see the same ones, and the more regional/cultural destinctions can be made for them, which in turn adds flavour to regions/cultures.

Though I am also someone who heavily roleplays, even if this sometimes makes my game harder as a result.

 

[Harlehus]

I think events, both one-offs, rare, and common ones all help make the game feel much more alive. The one-offs often centre on specific tags or historical events and can become fun moments of choice during a campaign. And the more common ones there are, the less you see the same ones, and the more regional/cultural destinctions can be made for them, which in turn adds flavour to regions/cultures.

Though I am also someone who heavily roleplays, even if this sometimes makes my game harder as a result.

I guess i agree. I just think Imperator: Rome has a lot of bad, impactless events. Also i think my gripe with the events in the game is that they pause the game and that you cannot change this. If i recall correctly this is not the case in other Paradox titles such as EUIV.

 

[CPU Taro]

Secret Pacts - This is an idea inspired by the Mithradatic War when there was one, or several, massacres of Italic people all across Greece. Not to mention Gallic tribes plotting to oust Caesar in Gaul despite formal submission to the Romans. The idea here is that for a very costly sum of points, or whatever, you can form a secret pact with someone else which is not visible for anyone who has not signed on it. And that it can override any previous diplomatic arrangements. This is to allow minors that were once subjugated to suddenly rise together against their overlord. But to avoid making it to damn good I would say the cost to sign it should be high and that it may only last for perhaps a year at most before it must be re-arranged with a new cost to create it.

Very cool and flavourful idea.

 

[Gurkhal]

Here's an idea for a minor suggestion for the Roman's early puncing bags, the Oscan peoples of Italy.

Ver Sacrum

The idea is that the state can pronounce a Ver Sacrum and after a year, via events, select a number of POPs that are consecrated to the/a god(s) and then sent off to colonize a new area by strength of arms if necessary. That would essentially be so that if you've got a population problem with to many POPs somewhere, you can gather them up and then send them off to settle somewhere else and perhaps conquer a new territory for you, or setting up a friendly new state there.

The way I imagine it is that each POP sent out contributes two cohorts of soldiers, according to the below system. This is based on the Greco-Roman perspective and I figure what each POP adds can be decided by what Military Tradition that the state sending out these people has.

Nobles: Light cavalry and heavy cavalry
Citizens: Heavy infantry
Freemen: Light Infantry and archers
Tribesmen: Archers and light Infantry
Slaves: Nothing at all

Ver sacrum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gurkhal]

Now comes a bit with less to do with historical content and more to do with AI.

AI behavior when deciding on who to fight wars with

Right now I, and to my understanding many more, feel like the giants of the age leaves each other alone to much. Meaning that the bloobs are not consuming each other but rather the small targets and then leave each for eternal coexistance in eternal brotherhood and sisterhood for the peace and progress of mankind.

What I suggest is that there should be more factors to make states decide on whom to attack. Factors such as ideology, history and prospective conquests.

The first one is that for ideological reasons states can be inclined to attack each other, or leave each other alone, even if the strength between them would be asymmetric. Examples for this comes from the Peloponessian War when ideological battles between oligarchs and democrats added to fuel to the fire and it seems to me that they were very much aware of the ideological similarities or differences. Thus I prepose that the more akin two governments are in governing, that should make some influence on who is a target and not.

Secondly we can see that conflicts between great powers were not always one-off affairs but rather often more developed as for example the Greco-Persian Wars, the Punic Wars, the wars between the Seleukids and the Ptolomaids, the recurring conflicts between Athens and the Peloponessian League (with or without Sparta), Samnite Wars and so on, into conflicts that carried across time. So what I propose is that after a war there's a mechanic that makes them more likely to engage each other again if given equal choices between different targets. Although of the three facors I am writing about I think this should be the least so that most importantly the human player won't suddenly find herself the subject of one attack after another without respite.

Finally on the third note I think that when the AI decides who to attack, they should consider the economic value that can be captured as part of its reasoning. Capturing a load of barely populated tribal lands should not be something done more often than attacking in order to conquer rich and productive lands from a strong target. History has shown that many people are willing to take on hard opposition if they think they can pull it off, even with the odds against them, if the payoff will be great, and I think that would also make it more of a contest to capture or defend territories that have been well developed and now are very productive.

 

[Gurkhal]

Here's a reposted idea that I brought up long ago in the "Suggestions for Rome II" thread before Imperator was even announced. Its direct towards that many people feel that governments and nations plays the same, so let us customize then! Much less chance of playing the same when we shape governments the way we want them to be.

Political Institutions

The foundation is that there are three basic kinds of governments that can be chosen; Monarchy, Oligarchy and Democracy. Tribals may be special but I know to little about those designated as tribals to make good comments about that kind of government.

And yes, one can argue that "laws" partially fill some of these area. But I personally find that the laws are a bit impersonal and that with this system there's a greater oppertunity for Paradox to create to make the game feel more different between sessions as you can customize the conditions your state work as, both for map painting or playing tall.

Monarchy: Rule by one man

Oligarchy: Rule by a selected few

Democracy: Rule by a selected many

Now these three categories are something in which each government will fall and each will provide a certain bonus and malus to the state. And then comes the clever one. We get to pick various political institutions and offices from each of the three categories, with a fourth category for "misc" ideas that don't fit nearly with any on of the three great ideologies, with some limits to not have everything at the same time or break the system too hard, and then mix it together the way we like it. Just like for example the Roman republic and Spartan system are both mixes of monarchy, oligarchy and democracy so we can now mix together our own systems.

Thus I can create a monarchy based on populism (Make Argos Great Again!), I can make a stratocratic democracy where only soldiers can vote or hold offices (see Starship Troopers for further information ) and so on and on.

If the enacted institutions would lean heavily one way or another, then that's the ideology we're getting placed into. But this allows us to essentially create our own governments by mixing and picking parts we find useful, create a meme government, set things up for a challenge, our interests or whatever. And for each suggested institution there could also be ways to customize it further by for example requirements to hold an office or be part of an institution, the powers and institution or office should have, checks and balances and so on. With effects from what power and influence who has and how the state then handles their system.

For those not terribly interested there could be the present government forms as ready-to-use models to pick up and go with. But for those of us who wants to delve into it the choices are almost endless. I recall that Paradox has successfully tried the customization method for religions in Crusader Kings 3. I feel a similar approach to governments could be used in Imperator in regards to governments.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Nobles: Light cavalry and heavy cavalry
Citizens: Heavy infantry
Freemen: Light Infantry and archers
Tribesmen: Archers and light Infantry
Slaves: Nothing at all

Slaves could contribute to supply trains and warships.

 

[Gurkhal]

This is one more a minor suggestion, which one could argue would fit more in CK3 but I feel that it would have a place, even if a smaller one, also in Imperator.

Sacred Wars

In my opinion Holy Sites are looted pretty much without consequence right now. Therefor I would suggest that if you loot a Holy Site, then for 3-7 years every state that has the same religion as the god of the site which was looted gains the "Sacred War" CB on you. I figure it would work kind of like "Show Superiority" but with, well, an actual CB.

Or

That when a Holy Site is looted, you get an option to seek revenge for the impiety against the god and thus gain a Sacred War CB for maybe 4-5 years against the guilty party. But perhaps take some form of hit if you don't come around to fight that Sacred War.

Inspired by the four Sacred Wars in ancient Greece.

Sacred War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gurkhal]

More developed Greece

This is a bit of a contrary thing and it might be a bit influenced by my general ancient Greece fanboyism but I think that Greece should start much more developed. Cities like Argos, Elis, Thebes, Korinthos, Megara etc. should in my opinion start with 3-4 buildings beyond the forts, and most minor cities also have perhaps 1 or 2 buildings.

The reason for this is to primary to simulate reality. Greece and probably several other regions, were rather developed when the game starts And since many of these regions either form the core or neighbors of the great Diadochi titants of the starting game, it makes sense that they would be more desirable as conquests and also more able to fund a defense of themselves or an empire better.

Although I should note this isn't a very important issue for me, I will mention it regardless.

 

[Gurkhal]

Horses in Imperator

There was a discussion regarding the use of horses as a trade goods in Imperator. What I think now is that either horses can be sub-divided further than the two current types we have now. Or that to have horses you need, unless you're a nomadic tribe or something, to essentially build stud farms to produce horses of different kinds as opposed to have them a permanent features of certain territories.

The idea would be that having stud farms reduces the food production in a territory as potential agricultural land is given over to grazing for the horses. But in exchange you can get access to horses. Perhaps four different kinds of horses in; steppe horses, horse, race horse and big horse.

Steppe Horse: Connected with mounted archersr
Horse: Allows the creation of cavalry
Race Horse: Gives a serious bonus to nobles and citizen happiness due to them being used for various entertainments in that province
Big Horse: Bonus to heavy cavalry

 

[Gurkhal]

Sabaton Soundtrack for Imperator

Given that Hearts of Iron IV got Sabaton music as part of a DLC pack I suggest that Paradox approach Sabaton to write more music about the ancient world and then put it on as DLC for the game.

 

[Gurkhal]

Concept of Grandeur

This is something which I have suggested for another Paradox game but I think that it could work here as well, in particular among relations between small and smallish groups of the same or similar culture.

The basic idea is that there will be a value of "Grandeur" which is based on the relative ammount of widespread civilization, happiness, number and size of cities and so on. Essentially how impressive and magnificent your country is compared to the power it commands. Now what this would do would be to provide benefits to diplomacy through soft power and even allow for peaceful annexations of less impressive political groups which has a culture which is integrated in your state, or at least of the same culture group. Likewise a low Grandeur could make states with more Grandeur be more hostile towards you.

The effect of being considered a becon of civilization and culture or an armed camp filled with savage brutes, among the nations of the world.

This is primarily to allow tall play but also to open a mechanic in the game for expanding on the peace time activities of the game.

 

[Gurkhal]

I've been following a discussion regarding what people feel is lacking for immmersion in Imperator, and one of them that struck me was the inability in, for example, Rome to cultivate certain historical families without having to play the game very gamey as otherwise those families will wither and die as minor characters with the first 20-30 years or so of the game. And so for this...

"Central Family" in Imperator

That is that the player can select a family as central in Imperator which means that this family will get more events that the player can interact with, and if a minor character is chosen, then this family is immedietly raised to become a pseudo-family in the game as long as they are focused on as the central family of the game, and if a slot opens up for a new family to rise, this pseudo-family which is focused on will fill that slot before anyone else. Other special treats for that family or pseudo-family can also be added.

The intention is to help prevent desired families from dying off too easily to random causes of death and give a little edge for these over others of the same kind. But most importantly is that they would give the player som extra info and help in cultivating this family to the player's desire. Thus help allow a player to focus on a single family in the game without making it into CK: Antiquity Edition and without us having a ton of families just for being able to pick the one that we desire.

I am sure that other features and stuff can be added to this concept.

 

[Gurkhal]

More recognizable families

Given how little we know about the prominent families of the Greek world in general and outside of Athens, and possibly Sparta, in particular, I have started to think that perhaps a way to create immersion might be to give each Greek state, and possibly other states, families claiming descent from known figures associated with that state?

I am not necessarily talking about mythical figures but when possible about historical ones, which when combined with my suggestion above, could perhaps help with making game runs more immersive and offer RP and AAR oppertunities?

 

[Ketchup & friends]

The intention is to help prevent desired families from dying off too easily to random causes of death and give a little edge for these over others of the same kind.

Instead of needing the player's help to prevent them form dying out, families should exist and procreate unless the player decised to exterminate them.

 

[Gurkhal]

Instead of needing the player's help to prevent them form dying out, families should exist and procreate unless the player decised to exterminate them.

While this could naturally be true, I'm not sure that the devs want to go back to the starting position in regards to the number of families as opposed to keeping that number small

 

[Ketchup & friends]

While this could naturally be true, I'm not sure that the devs want to go back to the starting position in regards to the number of families as opposed to keeping that number small

They have to, eventually. The new system is overall worse than the old one.

 

[Gurkhal]

This is a suggestion for a kind of big shift in regards to the way that the economy would work but I think it would kind of tie in with both the civilization builder aspect as well as the historical reality of the ancient economy and also the way that mankind tend to re-shape the world around it. The base idea is also to combine it with another idea of mine in regards to taking some ideas from city builder games for how to manage and grow cities, and most importantly metropoleis.

Of course these things could be hardcoded so maybe for Imperator II but I thought that I would throw out the idea anyway.

Natural and cultivatible resources

The idea is that there would be two kind of resources, natural and cultivatable, where natural are things like metals and stuff that can't be grown, bred or made by humans. But in opposition to this would be cultivatable things like foodstuff, horses, products like pottery and so and that these would be possible to change between provinces. This would happen with a large investment over a number of years and provide and output based on the province where its produced. As opposed to the static model of today.

And possibly even allowing investments to expand on production in territories which reshapes the terrain in addition to a greater economic output. So that the first level of agriculture might not change too much, but the third level will involve clearing forests and so change the terrain feature in a territory up in Germania from forest to farmlands. And for that matter that a province that's been sparsely populated for years might see its farmland terrain turn first into plains and then forest if the population keeps being low.

Examples: Say that I have a territory that initially produces grapes, but I want them to breed horses. Thus I made my investment which basically makes the territory produce nothing for three years, and after that period the territory produces horses and with an output based on the terrain and part of the world where it is in regards to how breeding horses.

Historical examples: Athens which changed from even trying to produce its own foodstuff to focus on cash crops and import most of its food from the Black Sea region. And naturally the economic system from the Roman Empire with its regional specialization as a, to my limited understanding, huge internal market and secure transportation within the empire, was created as opposed to the previous patchwork of tribes, cities, states etc.

 

[Gurkhal]

Another small suggestion from me

Family Farms (as a rural building or as a law)

That the state can protect smaller landholders from getting swallowed by large estates and thus protect the self-owning farmers that provided the bulk of the heavy infantry citizen forces that serves in the levies remains as a class in society. This means that Freemen and Citizens gets a boon to happiness and economical output while Nobles lose happiness and there's a slight malus to loyalty for characters, as these would lose the oppertunity to enlarge their estates.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Another small suggestion from me

Family Farms (as a rural building or as a law)

That the state can protect smaller landholders from getting swallowed by large estates and thus protect the self-owning farmers that provided the bulk of the heavy infantry citizen forces that serves in the levies remains as a class in society. This means that Freemen and Citizens gets a boon to happiness and economical output while Nobles lose happiness and there's a slight malus to loyalty for characters, as these would lose the oppertunity to enlarge their estates.

This could be implemented as a cultural decision, similar to this one:

Decisions - Imperator Wiki

imperator.paradoxwikis.com