Overhauling trading UI regarding export / import goods and trade mechanics

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illseeyoudrum

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Dec 19, 2014
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  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II
Players usually only trade with larger nations while smaller nations are left out. Why is this the case?

  1. The bureaucracy costs are constant, so they are really high for a smaller nations to be ever profitable.
  2. Most countries have mercantilism, which has a very high import tariffs, making export unfeasible.
  3. Furthermore, countries may arbitrarily establish high export or import tariffs, making profitability plummet, essentially misleading players with regards to profitability.
  4. Therefore players are really afraid of establishing trade with minor nations.
  5. Assuming 50 countries can be traded and there are 30 goods, players have to click export / import 1500 times. Expecting player to click so much just for global trade to happen is unfeasible. Furthermore this costs 7500 bureaucracy with Free Trade, making both free trade and global trade a very suboptimal strategy, even if all countries had free trade.
  6. *Above does not count having to check trade opportunities, which costs types of goods x 2 (import + export) clicks.
  7. Trade is made by traders and tariffs are made only in bureaucracy, and historically AFAIK countries don't establish trade routes, traders do. Countries only decide which good is not to be traded, or which countries to not be traded. Countries also only impose tariffs on borders or ports, afaik not caring about whether a good is exported in multiple countries for a convoy or a single one unless the good is traded with a country with trade agreement. Afaik for mercantilists it depends on traders nationality, but it is way too costly to implement so shopkeepers suffice.

Possible solutions:

UI:
  • Players should be able to create separate lists of import / export goods, setting their preferred goods to either list. Also with this:
    • Players may set routes according to this setting to any country, tolerating possibly unprofitable routes.
    • AI-like trade settings can be applied to player, automatically creating / removing trade routes as cautioned in the list.
  • Players may just use AI setting to create trade routes.
  • Goods that correspond to non-existent consumption such as fine art should be shown to player as likely to be profitable.
  • *Edit: Trade may be wholly or partially automatic, first being natural trade routes (as traders establish these themselves), second being regional trade routes.
Mechanics:
  • Trade bureaucracy costs should be much lower.
  • Bureaucracy costs should be on per country basis, not per trade route basis. (1)
  • Regarding tariff policies, make setting non-default tariffs cost bureaucracy (or authority). (2)
  • Trade level / bureaucracy solution:
    • Make trade level have another production method which employs bureaucrats, costs paper (Problem: government employees don't get fired that easily)
    • Creating another government building which manages trade capacity, and gives inefficiency of tariffs when overcapacity. Free trade gives a very huge boost to capacity (only checking contraband goods). Overcapacity for free trade causes tax waste (smuggling). Problem only seems to be AI programming for me, as this also makes historical sense.
    • Vanilla solution but just making 1 bureaucracy per trade route level. I think the micro is manageable, and trade levels can also create alerts in insufficient amounts, as trade is slow and gradual. (also please show how much bureaucracy is needed to solve insufficient bureaucracy alert)
    • All of these can be in conjunction with (1) and (2), with (2) having as multiplier and possibly base + per level and including routes made by other countries.
  • *Natural trade routes:
    • This may take average convoy cost + bureaucracy cost into account when establishing trade routes. In this, profitability would be directly related to minimum wage in the state.
  • *Regional trade routes:
    • One can include / exclude trade of a good regarding the region. This would be locally automatic as above but in here the convoy costs can be clearly seen.
 
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The bureaucracy costs are constant, so they are really high for a smaller nations to be ever profitable.
This is one of my biggest annoyances with playing a small country. Try playing Ecuador, for example. You can't produce everything yourself, you can't trade because you can't afford the administration to move goods across a border, so you're forced into a customs union with some European power that is ahistorical and dull. Instead of having to deal with the challenges of your own starting situation, you end up playing another game in Britain's/France's market and dealing with their challenges.

Scaling bureaucracy with the level of the trade route would be a good enough solution in the short term, but I like your other suggestions too. Adding additional government buildings seems unnecessary though, but perhaps making it so that a bureaucracy deficit lowers "tariff efficiency" (and then reducing the tax waste penalty slightly to compensate) might do something similar.
 
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This is one of my biggest annoyances with playing a small country. Try playing Ecuador, for example. You can't produce everything yourself, you can't trade because you can't afford the administration to move goods across a border, so you're forced into a customs union with some European power that is ahistorical and dull. Instead of having to deal with the challenges of your own starting situation, you end up playing another game in Britain's/France's market and dealing with their challenges.

Scaling bureaucracy with the level of the trade route would be a good enough solution in the short term, but I like your other suggestions too. Adding additional government buildings seems unnecessary though, but perhaps making it so that a bureaucracy deficit lowers "tariff efficiency" (and then reducing the tax waste penalty slightly to compensate) might do something similar.
Instead of a joining a customs union you can try to get a trade agreement, then for one lump sum you can have all the trades you want with that country.
 
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Smaller countries and AI don't get trade agreements. Trade agreements are more profitable for trade initiating country. Not sure if trade route competitiveness is active for import vs. export, in that case trade competitiveness also increases relative profits. Trade agreements also become broken after 49 infamy.

I don't think trade, especially global trade, should be soft-restricted to trade agreements, especially after a counterintuitive loss at the beginning.
 
What about export tariffs? They made sense with the previous trade price calculation, but now they make trade much more restricted. IMO, export tariffs should either disappear or be reduced, and base tariffs shouldn’t have them.

Also, tariffs should use the current price, not the base price.
 
In terms of streamlining trade... It would be nice to have a slider setting to "accept all trade routes with efficiency > x", with perhaps an option to restrict this based on available convoys. Usually I will go through and accept routes with profitability greater than ~20 per employee unless I really want to import/export a particular good
 
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We need the global market back. Just an empty market where every nation with coastal excess can export and import with no burocracy. It starts at base price, not having any real goods to offer. It's not helping with magical spawned oil or sth. Shortages stay if no one sees a deal.
Trading globally might not get the best deal, but if u put in demand, someone will export into it.
Having dedicated bilateral traderoutes is more stable and possibly lucrative, but comes with a cost.

V2 trade System had it's moments.
 
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What about export tariffs? They made sense with the previous trade price calculation, but now they make trade much more restricted. IMO, export tariffs should either disappear or be reduced, and base tariffs shouldn’t have them.

Also, tariffs should use the current price, not the base price.
Hmm.
When taxation is primitive or insufficient, tariffs do make sense. One might just let trade happen when you gain money from it, even if it is not ideal. Afaik in land based taxation, gain from taxation capacity is just about equal to the cost for it, especially if you have low income. Though I agree that non-default tariff policy percentages are too high.
We need the global market back. Just an empty market where every nation with coastal excess can export and import with no burocracy. It starts at base price, not having any real goods to offer. It's not helping with magical spawned oil or sth. Shortages stay if no one sees a deal.
Trading globally might not get the best deal, but if u put in demand, someone will export into it.
Having dedicated bilateral traderoutes is more stable and possibly lucrative, but comes with a cost.

V2 trade System had it's moments.
Thinking from player input / output perspective, I am kinda sympathetic to automatically established trade routes. Letting traders trade themselves seems much better, though I would love to hear counterarguments.

I will edit my thoughts on main post.
 
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One very basic thing about trade come to my mind:
Why is it an explicit action in V3 to trade?
People will trade if it earns them money and no one stops them. Hell, industrials will make personal deals for goods for all of civilized history and up to today.

What if the player agenda (and laws in a greater scheme) do not revolve around making routes, but stopping certain routes.
Protectionism makes blocking cheaper, free trade impossible, isolationism blocks all. Trade agreements give big competitiveness bonus.
Qol for small nations, more political tool for bigger nations. Opium wars and open market are reasonable war goals to stop trade blocks.
 
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We need the global market back. Just an empty market where every nation with coastal excess can export and import with no burocracy. It starts at base price, not having any real goods to offer. It's not helping with magical spawned oil or sth. Shortages stay if no one sees a deal.
Trading globally might not get the best deal, but if u put in demand, someone will export into it.
Having dedicated bilateral traderoutes is more stable and possibly lucrative, but comes with a cost.

V2 trade System had it's moments.
To steal an idea from HOI4's very basic economic system: why not have a certain proportion of "left" goods enter this global market, which is almost always the worst thing to trade from, but provides a semi-realistic market of last resort for pops to freely engage with.

So nations that match buy and sell orders will never engage with a global market, but if you have an excess of sell orders, some will be sent onto this global market (with the fraction depending on some relevant law, I guess). Nations with an excess of buy orders can satisfy their needs from this global market if there is no better deal available.
 
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To steal an idea from HOI4's very basic economic system: why not have a certain proportion of "left" goods enter this global market, which is almost always the worst thing to trade from, but provides a semi-realistic market of last resort for pops to freely engage with.

So nations that match buy and sell orders will never engage with a global market, but if you have an excess of sell orders, some will be sent onto this global market (with the fraction depending on some relevant law, I guess). Nations with an excess of buy orders can satisfy their needs from this global market if there is no better deal available.
Overall, I am much much happier with the regional markets we have now compared to the global market of Vicky 2. But I cannot easily counter your points, and a hybrid system to smooth over certain peaks and troughs has utility. I would however prefer it be called the “international market” rather than global market.
 
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In terms of streamlining trade... It would be nice to have a slider setting to "accept all trade routes with efficiency > x", with perhaps an option to restrict this based on available convoys. Usually I will go through and accept routes with profitability greater than ~20 per employee unless I really want to import/export a particular good
Please this!