• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Panagean

Major
46 Badges
Nov 27, 2019
726
4.177
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
Artisans - that is, urban and semi-urban workers typically labouring in small pre-industrial facilities shaped by guild practices - should be a 9th interest group, separate to the Petite Bourgeoisie (as they are blue-collar rather than white-collar workers), Rural Folk (as they represent an urban population) and Trade Unions (as they vastly predate the emergence of trade unions themselves, reflect pre-industrial working conditions, and are not generally part of the emergence of proletarian socialism that the TUs kinda-sorta represent).

They were a major part of the Jacobin and neo-Jacobin movements in France, and effectively the working-class participants Marxists accuse liberals of having sold-out during the 1848 Revolutions.

Their preferences should focus on restricting access to employment to conventional professions, to keep their own wages high, and opposing automisation, as well as guaranteeing a stable supply of food, as artisan urban populations particularly suffered during the "hungry 40s".

Some proposed law traits should be:
  • Opposition to laissez-faire, free-trade and mercantilism (as export-focused economies raise the price of staple foods - e.g. in Britain in the 1840s and the USSR in the 1930s).
  • Support for protectionism and isolationism
  • Maybe some general support for progressive taxation, though I don't know the degree to which this was an animating issue in a pre-income tax world
  • Support for basic social-welfare institutions like charity hospitals, poor laws, wage subsidies
  • Support for advanced labour rights (opposition to serfdom, support for worker's protections)
  • Opposition to women in the workplace but support for child labour (as often small workshops relied on informal labour to stay profitable as industrial processes raised competition)
  • Support for exclusionary racial and migration policies, in order to stop foreign labour. Opposition to slavery, as a wage-drag on their work.
  • Tepid support for an authoritarian presidential model of democracy, though with limited censorship and broad-base suffrage. This was a group that wanted their voice heard, but was far more interested in getting their stomachs full.
  • I sort of want them to be pro national guard as a model of civic militias before they come into effect, and then oppose them once they do (as, in 1848, these ended up staffed by middle class liberals who eventually turned their guns against artisan populations)

They should pull principally from laborers and shopkeepers, but clergymen and soldiers should also be able to participate.

I think it's important as part of the vision that the player has economic levers to interact with each of the IGs, and I support that vision (though I will point out that it doesn't seem to apply to the Devout and Intellectual IGs, which is a shame). I've been pretty critical elsewhere of the materialist historiographical lens V3 takes to politics, and I want to clarify that I think it's a perfectly good historiographic lens, but really has to be used in conjunction with other lenses like identity and ideology to make sense (and that the V3 implementation is pretty weird). Because V3's framework is basically that everyone works in an industrial centre, a plantation or a subsistence farm, there isn't a natural space to have a building slot for artisans, unless something like a "subsistence industrial building" is added to cities. Given that that's the case, I suggest that attraction should be based on use of old-school PMs, with attractional bonuses for:
  • Merchant guilds
  • Early construction and urban-centre PMs
  • Handcrafted furniture
  • Hand assembly
  • Forest glass, manual glassblowing
  • Craftsman sewing
A bit like the Trade Unions IG can emerge over the course of the game, I wonder whether it should be possible for the Artisans IG to disappear over the course of the game, if it becomes sufficiently marginalised.
 
  • 4
Reactions:
That's way too similar to PB, and they already are probably the least useful IG in the game, as their power base is basically impossible to keep supporting, without playing very suboptimally (many shopkeeper owners are replaced with PMs, that some countries even start with unlocked), then they randomly remember they wanted to go fascist in the late game.

We certainly don't need another one like this. I'd rather see PB being made into a more interesting IG, with solid power base, interesting laws and one you can actually base your urban/restrictive gameplay around, or maybe one for alternative way into industrialization - less advanced than Industrialists, but wanting to reform away from Landowners, with low target literacy and restrictive laws.

Currently PB are just a weird IG, with some support from urban centers and luxury clothes/furniture production, that have no coherent laws ideas, that makes them less often an IG to be in the government and more often "those guys that want to revolt on random law changes".
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
That's way too similar to PB, and they already are probably the least useful IG in the game, as their power base is basically impossible to keep supporting, without playing very suboptimally (many shopkeeper owners are replaced with PMs, that some countries even start with unlocked), then they randomly remember they wanted to go fascist in the late game.

We certainly don't need another one like this. I'd rather see PB being made into a more interesting IG, with solid power base, interesting laws and one you can actually base your urban/restrictive gameplay around, or maybe one for alternative way into industrialization - less advanced than Industrialists, but wanting to reform away from Landowners, with low target literacy and restrictive laws.

Currently PB are just a weird IG, with some support from urban centers and luxury clothes/furniture production, that have no coherent laws ideas, that makes them less often an IG to be in the government and more often "those guys that want to revolt on random law changes".
I think you're overstating the gameplay similarities here, given that petit bourgeoisie's main focus in its rights restriction and meritocratic government, and artisans focus on Luddism and high wages for domestic products. Also that, as you say, it's impossible not to support the PB's to a degree, and artisans naturally fade out of the economy over time (as they did IRL). I agree with you that PB are a weird/bad IG at the moment - I suspect they are there to provide a base for a late game fascism that never comes, and to give more academic weight to the Marxian historiography in the game - but I think that's a separate discussion. I also think it's wrong to focus solely on gameplay effects as I would argue all Paradox games are frameworks for stories about history as well as videogames, and currently the absence of artisans or something like them makes the historical stories the game tells for its first 30 years or so feel very wrong.