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Blood and Iron - An Interactive Prussian AAR

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ThaHoward said:
Yeah like the DVNP and the rest of the parties would accept a Habsburg Kaiser.. And now it is 50/50 on the new constitution, anything can happen, especially with the DAP in this strong position. Face it, your dream of a Habsburg monarchy will never suceed, since the coalition is so split on every matter. DZP want a liberal-democracy, DVNP want an absolute monarchy, DAP want a totalitarian state. DZP want a Habsburgs, DVNP Hohenzollern and DAP a Führer. DZP want rule of law and liberty to a certain extent, DVNP and DAP are highly racist.. DZP want to have equal representation and greate autonomanacy to each state, DVNP want Prussian dominance and DAP want Führer dominance.

And the list goes on, you're simply too split. In order to get a constitutional monarchy, you will have to make many concessions to the DVNP and DAP. Or you have to sell your soul in order to get a Habsburg on the throne. Either way, you will have to make lots of concessions and things won't be as pretty as you picture them.

But on the other hand, if you host a congress in Berlin, you might show resolution and leadership, and even please the DVNP and DAP (and maybe DZP-R and DDP) by getting old territories back, establishing stability and re-creating a colonial empire. Who knows, that could help your cause. And of course every colonial empire need an Emperor ;)
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This is the thing: the reason the Papenites and liberal monarchists won't succeed isn't because of the DNVP nor is it because of the DAP; it's because of the moderates: Zentrum voters, FVP voters - hell, DDP voters even - it's time to descend from your ivory towers and face reality: which would you prefer, an autocratic republic or a democratic monarchy? There can be no fudging nor mudging on this issue: either you are for a democratic monarchy or an autocratic (or socialist) republic.
 
ThaHoward said:
Unfortunately to get a monarchy you need to cooperate with the DAP, oh and the DVNP. Oh and I think you need a 75% majority to change the constitution.
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Majority? Bah, give me one well-trained cavalry division and I'll change the constitution by tomorrow.
 
Contravarius said:
Majority? Give me one well-trained cavalry division and I'll change the constitution by tomorrow.
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Thought you lot preferred divisions of a more... armoured variety? We probably have those in development already you know. :)
 
Tanzhang (譚張) said:
Thought you lot preferred divisions of a more... armoured variety? We probably have those in development already you know. :)
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Oh, those tincans? It brings no honor, no glory, fighting alongside those... Things.
Noicy and useless, that's what they are.
 
Contravarius said:
Oh, those tincans? It brings no honor, no glory, fighting alongside those... Things.
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There's little honour or sense in fighting with a paper hat on your head either... unless your objective is to make your opponent laugh himself to death; and there is little honour in that. :)
 
Tanzhang (譚張) said:
There's little honour or sense in fighting with a paper hat on your head either... unless your objective is to make your opponent laugh himself to death; and there is little honour in that. :)
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Oh, don't you even go there, you little...
One more joke like this and I might just go and find one of those cavalry divisions.
 
Tanzhang (譚張) said:
This is the thing: the reason the Papenites and liberal monarchists won't succeed isn't because of the DNVP nor is it because of the DAP; it's because of the moderates: Zentrum voters, FVP voters - hell, DDP voters even - it's time to descend from your ivory towers and face reality: which would you prefer, an autocratic republic or a democratic monarchy? There can be no fudging nor mudging on this issue: either you are for a democratic monarchy or an autocratic (or socialist) republic.
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Appereantly it is a big base for a liberal-republic. Unless

The Congress in Berlin!
 
Contravarius said:
Wasn't the Congress only about the international situation and colonies and not domestic issues, my dear?
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It can solve domestic ones. Like DVNP, DAP MP's and other MP's wanting a colonial empire, wanting stability in Europe, wanting a strong leadership who show detirmination etc etc. The congress can be used to show resolution and to solve domestic issues, like i.e Heligoland, the Bohemian question, foreign policy etc etc.

Also I guess in order to get a monarchy we need to consult the other great powers so we won't upset them. The German Empire (hell even the Austrian one and Holy Roman Empire) are generally looked negativley upon, especially by UK and France.
 
ThaHoward said:
It can solve domestic ones. Like DVNP, DAP MP's and other MP's wanting a colonial empire, wanting stability in Europe, wanting a strong leadership who show detirmination etc etc. The congress can be used to show resolution and to solve domestic issues, like i.e Heligoland, the Bohemian question, foreign policy etc etc.

Also I guess in order to get a monarchy we need to consult the other great powers so we won't upset them. The German Empire (hell even the Austrian one and Holy Roman Empire) are generally looked negativley upon, especially by UK and France.
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No, it's quite simple: either Germany has a liberal monarchy or an autocratic republic of either the right or the left. Which option do you prefer?
 
Tanzhang (譚張) said:
No, it's quite simple: either Germany has a liberal monarchy or an autocratic republic of either the right or the left. Which option do you prefer?
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A liberal-democracy. But with DAP and DVNP at the negotiation table, it is a big chance it will be an autocratic one :) And the current Republic are quite democratic, we only need to improve it, like reducing the power of the president or fusing the chancellors and presidents office.
 
ThaHoward said:
A liberal-democracy. But with DAP and DVNP at the negotiation table, it is a big chance it will be an autocratic one :) And the current Republic are quite democratic, we only need to improve it, like reducing the power of the president or fusing the chancellors and presidents office.
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This is why we need other parties like the DDP at the negotiating table, but unfortunately said party is so wedded to its foolish notions of republicanism that it insists on staying on the sidelines. If the FVP and other such parties follow its example, the end result will be autocracy by default.
 
Tanzhang (譚張) said:
This is why we need other parties like the DDP at the negotiating table, but unfortunately said party is so wedded to its foolish notions of republicanism that it insists on staying on the sidelines. If the FVP and other such parties follow its example, the end result will be autocracy by default.
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No? About half of the parliament support a democratic republic, and at the reffendurum, half of the population voted for no. And the right are to split to form any monarchy or an autocratic goveernment, unless DZP-M sell themselves out of course. And the DDP aren't inherhently against monarchy, but the way it currently is proposed, like the composition io the upper house is against democratic principles, especially the monarch with too much power. Of course we could negotiate with you, but then we also have to negotiate with the DVNP and DAP, and I won't sit and watch them dictate the policies.

Of course we could negotiate with you, but then we have to severly limit the piwers of the monarch and the aristocracy. It would fit into my theory that the moderate DVNP-ers and pragmatics DAP-ers and DVNP-ers would moderate themselves. But I wouldn't support anything that restricts the democracy and our liberties. Which per date I thibk is difficult considering that DVNP and DAP are in a strong position. Unless we launch a Congress in Berlin, which will only respect the interests of the international community (i.e great powers) but also the parties in Gemany.
 
ThaHoward said:
No? About half of the parliament support a democratic republic, and at the reffendurum, half of the population voted for no.
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They voted no to Hindenburg, not to a Kaiser.

And the right are to split to form any monarchy or an autocratic goveernment, unless DZP-M sell themselves out of course. And the DDP aren't inherhently against monarchy, but the way it currently is proposed, like the composition io the upper house is against democratic principles, especially the monarch with too much power. Of course we could negotiate with you, but then we also have to negotiate with the DVNP and DAP, and I won't sit and watch them dictate the policies.
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You don't understand, its precisely due to the unrealistic obstinance of other parties that we're forced to negotiate with the likes of the DAP in the first place.

Of course we could negotiate with you, but then we have to severly limit the piwers of the monarch and the aristocracy. It would fit into my theory that the moderate DVNP-ers and pragmatics DAP-ers and DVNP-ers would moderate themselves. But I wouldn't support anything that restricts the democracy and our liberties. Which per date I thibk is difficult considering that DVNP and DAP are in a strong position. Unless we launch a Congress in Berlin, which will only respect the interests of the international community (i.e great powers) but also the parties in Gemany.
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In reality, Zentrum is in the strongest position of any party, bar the socialists, by virtue of it winning the most votes. The problem is that virtually every other party in Germany sans the DNVP and DAP has shut the proverbial door in the party's face on the monarchy issue - in spite of the fact that the bulk of Germans want a monarchy of some form. What choice do the Papenites have but to negotiate with undesireable men of low principle and paper headgear? Thanks to the short-sightedness of the republicans the party has nowhere else to go.
 
Okay some interesting figures: DZP M, DNVP and DAL have a 54.3% majority. A DZP M, DNVP and DDP coalition have a 53% majority. DZP M, DNVP, DDP and DAP have 60.3%.

A SED, DDP, FVP and DZP R have 45.8% miniority, but SED, DDP, FVP, DZP R and DZP M have 73.4%.

Whats interesting is that both DNVP and DZP-M look at DAP as extremists, and DNVP know that DAP might ruin their coalition, because DZP and DAP are so radically different. Therefore DDP might actually be more tempting as they are known for managkng to cooperate with both sides, and that they could agree on a democratic monarchy. However this both of these coalitions may fail because all 4 parties have different agendas and ideologies..

SED, DDP, FVP, DZP-R on the other hand will be a miniiority, but they would simply be a government who are opposed to the anti-republic segments and want to preserve status-quo. On the other hand DZP-M and also DNVP know that in order for them to pass laws they need some more votes.. So then some negotiation could take place. Also the only thing they have in common is oppoisition to the right wing parties, and they have no common ground on ideology and politics in practice beskde from that.

But either way the DDP seem to be the deal or break maker; they can moderate the monarchists or decide to not support them. And I think it is in he best interest of both DNVP and DZP M to cooperate with DDP and not DAP. The question is on what they will compromise and where theh will find a common ground.

Eitherway a DZP M, DNVP, DAP coalition is extremely fragile, and even the DZP M, DNVP, DDP coalition are fragile, but more stable. The question is if the DNVP and DZP M would accept a democratic monarchy with a Hohenzollern. As I doubt DNVP would accept both Habsburg and a liberal-democratic monarchy. And I certainly don't hope the DZP M are so dogmatic in their choice of Royal House.

But it seems like both DDP and DNVP would like to have a congress about the future of Europe and the Spanish colonies **wink wink**. And I'm sure elements of FVP and DZP-R and most (if not all) DAP would like that. That could gain DZP-M, DDP, DNVP (and possibly DAP as supporters) a lot of stability and consensus.
 
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ThaHoward said:
But either way the DDP seem to be the deal or break maker; they can moderate the monarchists or decide to not support them. And I think it is in he best interest of both DNVP and DZP M to cooperate with DDP and not DAP. The question is on what they will compromise and where theh will find a common ground.
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It would be in all Germany's interests if they cooperated with the DDP rather than the DAP!
 
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