AGC & EEP: Fantasy German Unification

[Phystarstk]

I'm not gonna let this thread completely die, so I'll make one more attempt to re-ignite this topic.

The ideas taken from the last arguments have been:
-3 to 6 new cultures for Germany (thus making it harder to unite)
-Some form of recentralized HRE prior to the normal Peace of Westphalia
-One would have to be HRE
-One would have to own significant amounts of Germany
-Technically, one doesnt even have to be a German state I suppose, but we'll let this topic continue
-This would create cores AFTER conquering has taken place - even if you already formed HRE. For example, you get elected HRE, you conquer enough of Germany to become a nation of "HRE" but you dont get the cores for the provinces of the German area you dont control until you conquer them - this gives higher BB and makes life harder
-I don't believe new cultures should be added to the nation's national cultures (keep in mind, German culture is subdivided into sub-Cultures, and no one state could have all of these cultures)

-Some form of true Germany (in a Prussian manner) that would be possible during around 1750's or so. There were forms of German nationalism in the latter 18th century, so it could be possible for a nation to become Germany. However...
-The nation would have to have a German capitol and I don't think Austria should be a possibility.
-The nation would have to forcibly conquer most of Germany (obviously)
-The option would ask whether or not to become Germany, becoming Germany would create vast disruption, hurt stability, cost money, and hurt foreign relations.
-The nation forming Germany would only have its "sub-German" culture for a period (like Upper German, Lower German, Bavarian, etc)
-After 10 years of being Germany, the leader would have the option to attempt to "Universalize" Germany, or to keep it the same - if they attempt to do it, more instability and unrest will develop.. and it will cost more money
-If they agreed to univeralization, the state of Germany would gain all the cultures it didnt have several years after they attempted it.
-Perhaps this universalization thing could be attempted by the "centralized" HRE during the 1700's

Also, final comments, if the HRE is centralized, I think it should be possible to "Germanize" it and become Germany in the 1700's.

This was done haphazardly because I didn't research the topic as much as I had done in the past to prove my points. I just wanted to re-ignite this topic and attempt to pound out a reasonable plan for a fantasy unification of Germany.

 

[Archaalen]

The Turks would play a big part in the unification thing, too, since Ausria would have nothing to inherit if the last Hungarian kings hadn't been killed in battle with Suleiman's army.

 

[Classique]

Originally posted by Phystarstk
-The nation would have to have a German capitol and I don't think Austria should be a possibility.

IMO, Austria should be able to unify if the Habsburgs only have German provinces (plus Carniola). If the Habsburgs have expanded throughout the Danube valley, then the Germans would be much less likely to support Austrian leadership split between German and non-German focus.

 

[Phystarstk]

The main problem with Austria is that they were already the technical "emperors" of "germany". Although the HRE was impossible to centralize after the Thirty Years War (pretty much), the Habsburgs were still the nominal kings, and they would never piss off the world, anger the peasants, spend huge amounts of money, lose lots of soldiers, etc. just to make their hold over Germany "truer".
If the Austrians lost their non-German possessions, they would definitely turn their eyes to Germany. However, I don't see how an Austrian without non-German possessions would be strong enough to force a post-TYW centralization of the HRE. Basically, we'd have a one province minor with a nominal leadership of Germany trying to fight the rest of Germany and the rest of the world. Success would hardly be likely.

 

[Classique]

Originally posted by Phystarstk
However, I don't see how an Austrian without non-German possessions would be strong enough to force a post-TYW centralization of the HRE.

As opposed to Kleve unifying Germany? ;-) IMO, any state with German as its primary culture should be able to unify Germany. Otherwise the only possibility is Brandenburg-Prussia.

 

[KingMississippi]

Two Germanies

I like the idea of two Germanies. I think the HRE should be available before and after Westpahlia but you have to be catholic. I think there should be an event that if the nation becomes anything but catholic or counterreformation that it shatters into a "Prussia" - style north and a "Austrian" or "Catholic League" style south. Germany would be the nonreligious form of centralized europe. The biggest change of Germany from Prussia would be that it would be able to include all of Germany and not just the historic lands of Prussia.

 

[KingMississippi]

Electors of HRE

Who exactly are the electors in game?
IRL (Church) Mainz, Koln, Trier (near Luxemburg, i think?)
(Secular) Palitanate, Bohemia, Saxony, Brandenburg
I am trying to get an idea of who needs to be controlled in order to form the HRE.

 

[KingMississippi]

Formation of the Holy Roman Empire

Is this basically what the HRE would need to be formed and how it could be? I used Brandenburg as an example as it is the most obvious choice to form the HRE other than Austria.
#The Holy Roman Empire is formed#
event = {
id = { 999999
random = no
country = BRA
trigger = {
atwar = no
stability = 3
OR = { religion = catholic
religion = counterreform
}
owned = { province = 346 data = -1 } #Mainz
owned = { province = 344 data = -1 } #Koln
owned = { province = 328 data = -1 } #Bohemia
owned = { province = 345 data = -1 } #Pfalz
owned = { province = 332 data = -1 } #Anhalt
owned = { province = 312 data = -1 } #Brandenburg
owned = { province = 377 data = -1 } #Luxembourg
OR = {
vassal = { country BRA country = HAB } #Must have vassalized Austria
no HAB
}
date = { day = 1 month = january year =1419 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1819 } #Actually probably the Peace of Westphalia
name = "Holy Roman Empire"
desc = "After the unification of the electors of the Holy Roman Empire under Hohenzolleran control, the dominant German

state had the chance to reform the Holy Roman Empire as a centralized power instead of a confederation of states. What

is your decision?"
style = 1
action_a = {
name = "Claim the title of Emperor"
command = { type = badboy value = 5 }
command = { type = cash balue = -200 }
command = { type = stability value = -6 }
command = { addcore which = 346 } #Mainz
command = { addcore which = 328 } #Bohemia
command = { addcore which = 344 } #Koln
command = { addcore which = 345 } #Pfalz
command = { addcore which = 332 } #Anhalt
command = { addcore which = 312 } #Brandenburg
command = { addcore which = 377 } #Luxembourg
command = { addcore which = 310 } #Hannover
command = { addcore which = 333 } #Hessen
command = { addcore which = 343 } #Kleves
command = { addcore which = 311 } #Madgeburg
command = { addcore which = 334 } #Munster
command = { addcore which = 335 } #Oldenburg
command = { addcore which = 331 } #Sachsen
command = { addcore which = 372 } #Wurttemberg
command = { addcore which = 347 } #Wurzburg
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -250 }
command = { type = relation which = ITA value = -250 }
command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -250 }
command = { type = relation which = POL value = -250 }
command = { type = relation which = HOL value = -250 }
command = { type = {domestic = centralization = -20 } }
}
action_b = {
name = "We are fine as Margrave of Brandenburg"
command = { type = stability value = 3 }
command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 200 }
command = { type = cashvalue = 200 }
command = { type = {domestic = centralization = 2 }
}
}
The Event scripting needs work. I have never written an event before.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

The event as written will work. In the game all German States vote for the Emperor. Even Prussia.

The electors you posted are correct. However, I'd put Saxony is Sachsen province. Later on Bavaria and Hanover were added as electors.

I think the suggested conditionsare reasonable. But I think there ought to be more of a reaction, and more negative effects. I personally like the idea of getting the negative effects, and then if you can maintain your position getting the cores.

I don't see why you leave out Bavaria, Alsace, Lorraine, and Austria. And as I've already posted I see no reason why you have to be catholic.

 

[doktarr]

	trigger = {
		atwar = no
		stability = 3
		OR = { religion = catholic
		       religion = counterreform
			}
		owned = { province = 346 data = -1 } #Mainz
		owned = { province = 344 data = -1 } #Koln
		owned = { province = 328 data = -1 } #Bohemia
		owned = { province = 345 data = -1 } #Pfalz
		owned = { province = 332 data = -1 } #Anhalt
		owned = { province = 312 data = -1 } #Brandenburg
		owned = { province = 377 data = -1 } #Luxembourg
		OR = {
			vassal = { country BRA country = HAB } #Must have vassalized Austria
			no HAB
	}

Well, obviously no HAB is not a valid trigger, what you want there is NOT = {exists=HAB}. But I think that, in stead of that entire OR block, you should just have {emperor = yes}. Who cares about the Habsburgs, if you're the emperor already?

Also, why centralization -20? Firstly, -10 is all you'd ever need, and secondly, this seems like a centralizing action. It would probably be more appropriate to increase aristocracy and land and perhaps innovativeness and even mercantilism, as oppose to reducing centralization.

 

[KingMississippi]

Catholic HRE

I still think though that you need to be catholic to become the Holy Roman Empire. You get the crown from the Pope supposedly just like the King of Italy. I like the idea of two "Germanies", the HRE and the early German confederation.

The reason Saxony is in Anhalt is in AGCEEP that is where Saxony starts. Sachsen is Meissen.

Centralization -20 I put in there just to say that there needs to be a centralization penalty. The Holy Roman Empire is a feudal organization. Even had it been reestablished in the 15th, 16, or 17th centuries it would have had to keep some of the "rules" of the original HRE. At least until the empire brought about changes. I was thinking about an event farther down the line where you choose between a British style monarchy (Parliment) or french absolutism. The exact amount needs to be changed.

Austria was not an elector of the Holy Roman Empire. They merely provided many of the Emperors especially in game. I could not decide what exactly to do with Austria. I am playing as Brandenburg right now and control all of north Germany except Bremen, Mecklemburg, Holstein, and Prussia. I stayed Catholic (its 1600) and I still cannot become the Holy Roman Emperor. So I was having doubts about requiring that whomever having to be the Emperor.

About the cores. I think your idea about slowly gaining the cores after holding them for x years is a good idea. I guess the only cores you should get are those for the elector provinces. That would be 7 at most. If you did that then I think you should get a casus belli on the other provinces of the HRE (the game empire) for say 10 years so you have a legitimate reason to declare war. Then again maybe bad boy should be a problem when you finally declare yourself Emperor. Also there needs to be a bad boy trigger to say you have to have a badboy under 8 or so.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I still think though that you need to be catholic to become the Holy Roman Empire. You get the crown from the Pope supposedly just like the King of Italy.

No Emperor ever accepted that he was subordinate in any way to the pope. (Except in spiritual matters obviously). After Charles V no Emperor was crowned by the pope. Yes the HRE would have had to been reworked to accomodate a protestant centralizing Emperor, but it would have had to have been reworked to accomodate a protestant centralizing Emperor. If you are the emperor you have no need to gain legitimacy from the pope - you have legitimacy as the Emperor.

I like the idea of two "Germanies", the HRE and the early German confederation.

I don't. I see no justification for the seperation into North and South Germany. Germany was united (well it was one entity) throughout the EUII period, until the end of the Empire in 1806.

The reason Saxony is in Anhalt is in AGCEEP that is where Saxony starts. Sachsen is Meissen.

But it doesn't stay there. The electorate spends much more time in Sachsen province than in Anhalt province.

Austria was not an elector of the Holy Roman Empire. They merely provided many of the Emperors especially in game. I could not decide what exactly to do with Austria. I am playing as Brandenburg right now and control all of north Germany except Bremen, Mecklemburg, Holstein, and Prussia. I stayed Catholic (its 1600) and I still cannot become the Holy Roman Emperor. So I was having doubts about requiring that whomever having to be the Emperor.

About the cores. I think your idea about slowly gaining the cores after holding them for x years is a good idea. I guess the only cores you should get are those for the elector provinces. That would be 7 at most. If you did that then I think you should get a casus belli on the other provinces of the HRE (the game empire) for say 10 years so you have a legitimate reason to declare war. Then again maybe bad boy should be a problem when you finally declare yourself Emperor. Also there needs to be a bad boy trigger to say you have to have a badboy under 8 or so.

I don't see why the cores should be limited to the electorates. If you are the legitimate ruler of all the HRE you should get cores on at least all of Germany (including Austria).

 

[doktarr]

Centralization -20 I put in there just to say that there needs to be a centralization penalty. The Holy Roman Empire is a feudal organization. Even had it been reestablished in the 15th, 16, or 17th centuries it would have had to keep some of the "rules" of the original HRE. At least until the empire brought about changes.

My understanding was that the HRE went through some periods (most notably Barbarosa) where it was fairly well-centralized. I don't think a significant stability hit is called for here. The fact that you have physically united the territory is sufficient to show that this is a centralized version of the HRE.

I was thinking about an event farther down the line where you choose between a British style monarchy (Parliment) or french absolutism.

Possible, but let's not owrry about that until the events for formation are scripted. Besides, the British monarchy was not especially decentralized, in game terms.

The exact amount needs to be changed.

Obviously, as -20 is just silly. But I would disagree with anything more than -2. Claiming a title should not destroy your central administration.

Austria was not an elector of the Holy Roman Empire. They merely provided many of the Emperors especially in game. I could not decide what exactly to do with Austria. I am playing as Brandenburg right now and control all of north Germany except Bremen, Mecklemburg, Holstein, and Prussia. I stayed Catholic (its 1600) and I still cannot become the Holy Roman Emperor. So I was having doubts about requiring that whomever having to be the Emperor.

Try bribing the other nations that are electors to +200, that will help. But more generally, the problem is the hardcoded bonus the Habsburgs get to HRE elections.

While I don't think we should support the newest betapatches, I do think we should support the first two betapatches. And the very first betapatch (May 29) dramatically reduces the hardcoded bonus for the Habsburgs. So becoming emperor in order to trigger the event should be a reasonable goal.

 

[KingMississippi]

Hre

OK I understand about the cores. I guess every province in the HRE should be included, but will that include the KOI? It is a part of the HRE.

I guess being the emperor should be a requirement especially if we add say Austria to being one of the provinces that are required to be held.

I guess a protestant could claim the Holy Roman Empire but from what I understand is that if there are no catholics left to claim the title that the game crashes as the option of a Protestant emperor was never considered. If we allow a protestant empire than we cant have being emperor as a requirement of forming the HRE.

I guess if we are going to go with one Germany than I think there should be two different ways to form the HRE. A Pre and post Welphalia version. Make being the emperor a requirement prior to Westphalia and make seperate requirements post Westphalia.

 

[Mettermrck]

Ahh, excellent, I'm glad to see German Unification back under discussion. Kudos, Max! Just for reference, I'll repost my old ideas:

##################################
# The German Crown (durch Kraft) #
##################################
event = { 
id = 999999
random = no
country = BRA
trigger = { 	owned = { province = 346 data = -1 } #Mainz
		owned = { province = 345 data = -1 } #Pfalz
		owned = { province = 328 data = -1 } #Bohemia
		owned = { province = 312 data = -1 } #Brandenburg
		owned = { province = 331 data = -1 } #Sachsen
		owned = { province = 344 data = -1 } #Koln
		owned = { province = 349 data = -1 } #Bayern
		owned = { province = 310 data = -1 } #Hannover
		vassal = { country = BRA country = HAB } #vassalize Austria
		atwar = no #must be at peace
                NOT = { badboy = 10 }
	  }

name = "The German Crown"
desc = "Through a sustained campaign of military conquest, clever diplomatic 
maneuver, and stalwart will, Brandenburg has positioned itself, so that the 
Crown of Germany is now within reach. By overcoming all of the Imperial 
Electors and major rivals in Germany, and in particular, humbling the 
Hapsburgs, Brandenburg now has a claim to the German Crown that, if 
anathema to the nations of Europe, is clearly established by force."
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 }

action_a = {
name = "The Crown is Mine"
command = { type = country which = HEI }
command = { type = badboy value = 8 } 
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 5 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 } 
command = { type = revolt which = -1 } 
command = { type = revolt which = -1 } 
command = { type = revolt which = -1 } 
command = { type = addcore which = 374 } #Alsace
command = { type = addcore which = 332 } #Anhalt
command = { type = addcore which = 348 } #Ansbach
command = { type = addcore which = 351 } #Austria
command = { type = addcore which = 373 } #Baden
command = { type = addcore which = 349 } #Bayern
command = { type = addcore which = 312 } #Brandenburg
command = { type = addcore which = 336 } #Bremen
command = { type = addcore which = 310 } #Hannover
command = { type = addcore which = 333 } #Hessen
command = { type = addcore which = 302 } #Hinterpommern
command = { type = addcore which = 306 } #Holstein
command = { type = addcore which = 343 } #Kleves
command = { type = addcore which = 313 } #Kustrin
command = { type = addcore which = 344 } #Koln
command = { type = addcore which = 375 } #Lorraine
command = { type = addcore which = 311 } #Magdeburg
command = { type = addcore which = 346 } #Mainz
command = { type = addcore which = 305 } #Mecklenburg
command = { type = addcore which = 334 } #Munster
command = { type = addcore which = 335 } #Oldenburg
command = { type = addcore which = 327 } #Ostmarch
command = { type = addcore which = 345 } #Pfalz
command = { type = addcore which = 331 } #Sachsen
command = { type = addcore which = 351 } #Salzburg
command = { type = addcore which = 371 } #Tirol
command = { type = addcore which = 304 } #Vorpommern
command = { type = addcore which = 372 } #Wurttemberg
command = { type = addcore which = 347 } #Wurzburg
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Saxony's Reaction - permanent casus belli, -200 relations
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Baden's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Bavaria's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Berg's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Bremen's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Hannover's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Hessen's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Pommerania's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Holstein's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Kleves' Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Koln's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Lorraine's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Mecklenburg's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Oldenburg's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Palatinate's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Stettin's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Wurttemberg's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Wurzburg's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #England's Reaction 
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #France's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Spain's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Castille's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Aragon's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Portugal's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Burgundy's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Papacy's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Austria's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Poland's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Lithuania's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Denmark's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Sweden's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Teutonic Order's Reaction
command = { type = trigger which = xxxx } #Prussia's Reaction
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = BAD } #Baden
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = BAY } #Bavaria
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = MUN } #Berg
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = BRE } #Bremen
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = HAN } #Hannover
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = HES } #Hesse
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = POM } #Pommerania
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = HOL } #Holstein
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = KLE } #Kleves
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = KOL } #Koln
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = LOR } #Lorraine
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = MEC } #Mecklenburg
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = OLD } #Oldenburg
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = PFA } #Palatinate
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = SLZ } #Stettin
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = WUR } #Wurttemburg
command = { type = breakdynastic  which = THU } #Wurzburg
}

action_b = {
name = "We will reject this burden"
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
}
}


#######################
# Reaction to Germany #
#######################
event = { 
id = 999998
random = no
country = ENG
#Trigged by The German Crown (durch Kraft) event

name = "Reaction to Germany"
desc = "The forceful revival of the medieval Kingdom of Germany has alarmed courts throughout Europe, and hostile reaction is forming against this usurper state. There is a strong call for severing ties and declaring war on this so-called German kingdom."
style = 0

action_a = {
name = "Bad news"
command = { type = casusbelli which = HEI value = 4812 }
command = { type = relation which = HEI value = -250 }
}

action_b = {
name = "Seek their friendship"
command = { type = diplomats value = -1 }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
}
}

I like your ideas for gradual centralization and unification, Max, particularly with the granting of cores as you take each province. It has more elegance than the single event concept I was thinking of. But I do think that, once the country in question has reached the point where they are openly aiming for German unity, reaction events along the lines of what I proposed above should be triggered.

Again, my way of thinking was always that there are many ways to unify Germany and that the easiest way to model, and the one we should do first, is brute force. Never mind whether the nationalism was there or whether Germany was a geographical expression...if a guy can take the provinces and punish the Emperor, then let him get the Crown and punish him for it. You need any coding help, Max, you just say the word. I just want to see the idea get off the ground and into the game!

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I don't think maxpublic is around any more. But I think something along the lines of your events is good I would add the following:

-lose all non-german cultures (not relevant for BRA, but important for Lorraine, Austria etc.
- lose 5 stability. When you get your stability back up to +3 and still hold all of the electorates, then, and only then can you have all the cores.
- let the emperor claim it without vassalizing HAB
- require good relations with HAB if you are vassalizing.
- Pay a large sum of cash to have an extravagent coronation
- change DPs. Lose a little CEN, add a little ARIS, etc.
-make the reaction events harsher. Add stability. Maybe give them troops. Etc.

This approach is simple and not ridiculous. I think it's better to shoot for something simple for now. Let's try to get a consensus on something that can be tested and then improved.

 

[KingMississippi]

change DPs. Lose a little CEN, add a little ARIS, etc.

I agree with the loss of CEN and addition of ARIS. There were 1500 something entities in the HRE and all of them will have to be "appeased" by the new "emperor".

-lose all non-german cultures (not relevant for BRA, but important for Lorraine, Austria etc.

Agreed.

lose 5 stability. When you get your stability back up to +3 and still hold all of the electorates, then, and only then can you have all the cores.

I agree with the stability part but what seems to be the problem is when you gain the cores and what cores to gain. To claim the throne you should have to hold all of the electorates.

- let the emperor claim it without vassalizing HAB

Most people are saying that you should have to be emperor to declare a new HRE. Problem is that they also want a protestant HRE to be able to be declared.

 

[doktarr]

Most people are saying that you should have to be emperor to declare a new HRE. Problem is that they also want a protestant HRE to be able to be declared.

I believe a protestant can be elected emperor in 1.08, so this is not a problem.

If folks insist on using vassalizing the emperor as an alternate path (although I dislike this) then at least use the -6 tag (emperor) in stead of HAB.

 

[Mettermrck]

If folks insist on using vassalizing the emperor as an alternate path (although I dislike this) then at least use the -6 tag (emperor) in stead of HAB.

I had proposed this, but I was told that this didn't work. Is this now fixed?

 

[doktarr]

I had proposed this, but I was told that this didn't work. Is this now fixed?

What were you told doesn't work? I don't think you can have an event trigger for "country=-6", but I think a trigger condition like "vassal = {country = BRA country = -6}" would work fine. I haven't tested it, but I would assume so.

Once again, I think the simplest, least controversial, let's-just-get-something-in-we-can-agree-upon solution would be an event FOR the emperor if he controls most of the elector states, which changes the tag and gives the cores.