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Okay, I haven't re-scripted the events yet because I'm trying to figure out a way to make the system as flexible as possible. Right now what I have is this:

- only three nations can attempt it: Saxony, Bavaria, and Brandenburg.

- each of these three nations must own six specific German provinces to declare themselves 'The Grand Duchy of Germany', the first step in the process. These provinces are essential contiguous groupings in the area of the nation in question.

- if the ai manages to get all six provinces for one country by accident (normal in-game conquest) then the event fires and changes the ai file, as it's assumed that the power in question is actually interested in attempting unification. Essentially the ai must get the right grouping by accident to embark on the series on its own, which it'll almost never do.

Now the problem at this point is that while I think it's reasonable to require local groupings for the 'Grand Duchy', I don't think it's reasonable to require specific groupings after that to achieve the next step, or the step after, etc. Far too deterministic to my way of thinking.

On the other hand, there's no way to actually count nations up and see if you hold, say, another six German provinces to satisfy the next step. Well, that is, there *wasn't* a way to do this....

Consider this:

An event after the Grand Duchy only fires after a certain time period, if you still hold the relevant initial six provinces, and if your badboy is 5 or less. If so, the event progresses through a series which does the following:

- if badboy is 5, set a flag 'badboy5' and continue.
- if badboy is 4, set a flag 'badboy4' and continue.
- etc.

Once the proper flag is set we reduce the badboy of the nation in question to 0.

Now we move on to a chained series of events for every German province that's part of the series. In essence, these events say 'if owned then add 1 to badboy'. So for every province you own, 1 is added to the badboy score.

After all province events are checked, we move on to the event which takes a look at the badboy. If badboy is 12 or greater (you own the initial six provinces plus at least six more) then fire the next event in the German unification series. If not, go directly to another series of events which checks the flags we set above. So if your flag is 'badboy5' then the event would reset your badboy to 5, moving on; if 'badboy4' then your badboy is reset to 4, and so forth.

In essence, I'm temporarily removing the badboy of the nation in order to use it to count up all of your German holdings to see if you qualify for the next unification event, then resetting your badboy to whatever it was before I mucked with it.

Convoluted, I know, but it's the only way I can think of to actually count up a bunch of provinces. Can anyone see any glaring holes in this logic?

A P.S.: my initial solution was to set relations with a nation that didn't exist to 0, then add one to those relations for each hit (I'd rather not mess with badboy). But if I'm not mistaken, the computer doesn't keep track of relations with powers that don't exist, even within the context of a single series of fired events. Could someone more knowledgeable than myself comment on this?

Max
 
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I don't see how this can work, as BB from DOWs and such will mean that I can reach BB of 12 in all sorts of ways, that have nothing to do with the events in question. I would think that you should be able to do it with nasty triggers, although I admit that they will get very hairy.

Another way might be
event A (one for each german province)
trigger -own Pfalz, flag = 0prov (set when duchy was formed)
effect: setflag 1prov.

event B (one for each german province)
trigger -own Pfalz, did not have event A Pfalz version, flag =1 prov set
effect setflag 2 prov

event C (one for each german province)
trigger -own Pfalz, did not have event A or B Pfalz version, flag =2 prov set
effect setflag 3 prov


etc.

Clearly it's a lot of cutting and pasting, but it's easier than the logic for a single trigger.
 

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Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I don't see how this can work, as BB from DOWs and such will mean that I can reach BB of 12 in all sorts of ways, that have nothing to do with the events in question.

I guess I wasn't being clear. Let's see if I can do a better job this time.

- the initial event fires if: you have the required six provinces (e.g., you're still the Duchy), the year is right, AND your current BB is 5 or less.

- assuming this condition is true, the next set of events determines what your current BB is (0-5). It then sets a flag corresponding to your BB.

- once your BB is determined and recorded, your BB score is set to 0.

- the next (long) series fires, province after province, to see what you own. For every province you have, your BB is incremented by 1 point.

- after the long series is checked, another event checks to see what your 'BB' score is. If 12 or more you get the next German unification event. Remember, the BB here is simply a count of all the German provinces you hold; your actual BB score has been erased.

- once the event is processed or skipped, the last series fires. First off we once again zero out your BB score. Then we take a look at your active 'badboy' flags; if the only flag set is 'badboy5', this was your BB score before we mucked with it, so we reset your badboy to 5 and delete the flag; if the flag is 'badboy4' we reset your badboy to 4 and delete the flag; and so on.

All of these events fire in sequence without any delay.

On the surface it appears it'd work. What do you think?

Max
 

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OK I get it. It would be a one off though right? You'd need seperate copies of the event sequence each time you checked to see if the conditions are met.

Might work. I'll be interested to hear.
 

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Originally posted by Dagfinn
Why only those 3 countys?

Because:

- I don't think an outside power would be able to convince the Germans to unite; taking Germany would just be another conquest for these folks; and

- so far as I can tell from my research these three states are the only German minors with clearly recognizable, long-term imperialistic aspirations. Although I must admit that my own knowledge of the area, gleaned over the years, is mostly limited to the latter half of the game's time frame. Which is why I was going to set the earliest unification date to 1650 or thereabouts (I don't know enough about the German minors prior to 1650 to make informed judgements).

I should also note that the Austrian german provinces wouldn't be included in the event series. So far as I can tell the Austrians never saw themselves as a 'German' power, nor were they interested in becoming part of a greater german power. Even Anschluss was a minority sentiment, and forced upon them by Germany (essentially by rigging their government with pro-Anschluss, pro-Nazi sympathizers).

The corollary to this is that Austria can't create the German Empire.

Max
 

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What I also need to know is if there's any way to suppress the event message to the player, i.e., not require the player to press 'OK'. This method uses a lot of events to form a pseudo-loop with what amounts to a long string of 'goto' statements, all in the name of creating a counter which currently doesn't exist.

If the events are displayed on-screen and the player has to press 'OK' for each one it'll be a real pain to use. Not to mention which if the player doesn't pause his badboy will yo-yo all over the place, possibly resulting in some undesired side-effects.

I'd also like to know if the game keeps track of relation increments/decrements to defined nations which don't exist. I'd much rather use this method to change relations with a dummy nation, instead of touching badboy. Too many things can go wrong with badboy.

Max
 

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Not sure it's possible to supress the pop ups, other than with ney :)

Originally posted by maxpublic
So far as I can tell the Austrians never saw themselves as a 'German' power, nor were they interested in becoming part of a greater german power. Even Anschluss was a minority sentiment, and forced upon them by Germany (essentially by rigging their government with pro-Anschluss, pro-Nazi sympathizers).

I don't buy this for a second. Prior to the 19th century there was no such thing as an Austrian identity. Everyone accepted that Austria was a part of Germany, as it had been as long as Germany had existed. The Austrian government (which by the way overlaps with the German governement, the Aulic council was an institution of the Kingdom of Germany, not of Austria or any particuar Hapsburg lands) always saw itself as the German government.

You can argue that Ferdinand II wasn't interested in establishing a more effective German Kingdom, and was rather solely interested in advancing the interests of the Hapsburg lands, but I think it's a hard postion to maintain.

edit: I reread this and thought I ought to clarify. There was no more an Austrian identity in the 17th century than there was a Palatine identiy, or a Westphalian identity. There were regional identities in Germany at that time, and Austria was without a doubt one of them.
 

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Nicely worked out scheme, but without any historical base. Before going ahead and scripting events, it would be better to discuss how a unification of Germany could have happened realistically before the 19th century, given the complete lack of a national identity before the Napoleonic Wars, the enormous cultural and linguistic differences between "Germans" that were only compensated by the emergence of a German national literature and art in the late 18th century, the still important religious conflicts within Germany, the separatism of all German princes, the special structure of the Kingdom of Germany, the unwillingness of all German princes, including Fredrick the Great, to abolish the Empire and the important fact that it would not have been possible to legitimately create a new unified German country because there already was the Kingdom of Germany.

What lets you assume that Bavaria or Saxony had any ambition to unite Germany? A "race for uniting Germany" between Brandenburg-Prussia, Saxony and Bavaria that started after 1648 is a highly questionable invention of Wilhelminian nationalist historians who didn't understand a bit of what the 18th century was really about.

I'm sorry to say that, but your statement about Austria not being or not considering itself part of Germany during the EU2 period is utter nonsense (not to be taken that seriously ;) ). Austria was firmly part of the Kingdom of Germany just like any other German territory. It's true that the Hapsburgs had no interest in uniting Germany - mostly because they already WERE Kings of Germany -, but neither did the Hohenzollern, the Wittelsbachs or the Wettins.
The reason for Austria not becoming part of the Second Empire of 1871 was much less its separate identity than the Hapsburgs' unwillingness to give away their lands and, even more, BoP considerations. Btw, did you know that after WW1 German Austria actually voted for joining the Republic of Germany, the Austrian Republic was proclaimed on November 12th 1918 as part of Greater Germany and the union was only prevented by the allies' objections who in this case gave a damn about the peoples' right to self-determination?
A large part of the Austrians was not opposed to the Anschluss because they were against becoming part of Germany, but because they were against becoming part of Nazi Germany.
 
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Originally posted by Twoflower
Nicely worked out scheme, but without any historical base.

Which is why this thread is titled "Fantasy German Unification". If there were a solid historical base, it wouldn't be fantasy, now would it?

So I don't have to justify unification at all.

What lets you assume that Bavaria or Saxony had any ambition to unite Germany?

So far as I can tell, they didn't have any ambition to unite Germany. Neither did Brandenburg. I never said, anywhere, that this was the case.

What I said was that during the latter half of the time frame of the game, they had 'imperialistic aspirations'. That is, they were actively interested in expanding their lands and maneuvered politically to do so when the opportunity presented itself (the very definition of 'imperialism'). While this is true of other minors at various points, I think these three were the only powers in a position to do so on a wider scale.

You could, of course, argue to the contrary. But really - I'll be damned if I'm going to script events for every single German minor in the game. If you want to unite Germany as Hessen, *you* write the events.

I'm sorry to say that, but your statement about Austria not being or not considering itself part of Germany during the EU2 period is utter nonsense (not to be taken that seriously ;) ).

There was no Germany during the time frame of the game. These events try to create a Germany.

But putting aside any arguments on whether or not Austria would consent to becoming a part of Germany (which I still believe resides in the range of 'a snowballs chance in hell'), allowing Austria to form the kingdom would kill game balance. That's far more important than any other consideration. As Brandenburg, Bavaria, or Saxony the odds of a player being able to accomplish this are small; as Austria the odds become much greater. Therefore, Austria should not, under any circumstances, be allowed the opportunity to form Germany.

Max
 

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Originally posted by maxpublic
Which is why this thread is titled "Fantasy German Unification". If there were a solid historical base, it wouldn't be fantasy, now would it?

So I don't have to justify unification at all.

Well, you don't if its okay for "Germany" to remain with name as the country's name who united Germany. In a way that'd kind of make sense since you only have three possible aspirants and its unlikely that they would've just thrown their prior name away just because of feats the accomplished.

However, if you are wanting a name change, then some justification should be given for why this deserves a tag over historical nations.
 

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Originally posted by maxpublic

There was no Germany during the time frame of the game. These events try to create a Germany.

You seem to be ignoring what I wrote :mad:
There WAS a Kingdom of Germany until 1806, and its existance is why the only reasonable consequence of some German prince claiming to be rightful ruler of Germany because he has conquered it would be everybody and his mother declaring war on him until he is deprived of his unrightful holdings and forced to renounce his false title.
 

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Originally posted by Twoflower
You seem to be ignoring what I wrote :mad:
There WAS a Kingdom of Germany until 1806, and its existance is why the only reasonable consequence of some German prince claiming to be rightful ruler of Germany because he has conquered it would be everybody and his mother declaring war on him until he is deprived of his unrightful holdings and forced to renounce his false title.

Nope, I'm not ignoring what you wrote; rather, I assumed we were using 'Germany' to represent was you have *after* unification. That is, perhaps, a miscommunication on both of our parts.

And I should make it clear: I do not think there is any justification whatsoever for a unified Germany during the time frame of the game. While history isn't set in stone and there's no such thing as predetermination (unless you're an old-style Calvinist, in which case I offer my sincere condolences), the odds of this sort of thing happening are so low that events scripted towards this end could only be called 'fantasy'.

With that in mind, the primary goal of any German unification series should be a) to make it difficult, b) to make sure it's balanced, and c) to make sure a successful player is suitably rewarded (else there's no point in playing). In the words of the immortal Green Scotsman: "Aye, 'tis a tough and dangerous road to travel, but sure as m'Aunt's name is Mille, there be a pot of gold at its end!"

I haven't scripted any events for this yet. I want to use the pseudo-event series I detailed, but first I want to find a way to suppress the event output to the player. Otherwise it won't work properly, and trying to 'shoehorn' a set progression towards unification in this area would feel very contrived - so much so I wouldn't play it.

Max
 

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Actually I think that if the event choices have no effects (and BB may fall into that category, it's too new for me to have tried) the event just flashes and goes away. Please try this and let us know.
 
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Maxpubblic, i think if you want to have a united germany you should have some more option rather than only the 5 province trigger. If you want to make some alternative history you should make some more whats if proposal. Sayd that IMO an altrnative history for german unification could be if: Habsburg are not emperor; former German coutry own the majority of the HRE provinces; and the rest of the HRE minors has good relationship with former german country and very bad with habsburg. If the relationships are bad, austria and princes should get CB, worstened relationship and maybe war command for austria.
In fact the only way to have a different history was for austria be hated by everyone in the empire. Even if i don't think it could never led to ban of this country from the empire.
 
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maxpublic

I agree with Twoflower for the most part, but here's what I would add:
Which is why this thread is titled "Fantasy German Unification". If there were a solid historical base, it wouldn't be fantasy, now would it?
I will start by saying the forum is currently much more open than it was in the past. If it were not, I would still be lurking instead of getting involved, as I had done since EUII came out. That said, you should keep your audience in mind when you are writing events. And from that point of view some justification is required, meaning that the player is sucked in to the point that they accept what is happening could indeed happen.

As my sig indicates, I believe nothing is impossible, the probabilities just drop. Myself, I believe if some sort of greater Germany were to come into being, it would be driven by consistant and successful efforts by the HREs. As Twoflower was getting at, the HRE was almost always also given the title, King of Germany. If a successful and unifying leader were to emerge, I could also see the development of a greater German protestant state.

When writing any unification event, I would recommend that you address the lower level of nationalism at the time. Keep in mind that it was loyalty to ones lord, faith, weak nationalism, and in some respects the idea and memory of the glory of Rome that allowed multi-national states to exist. I'm not against an early creation of Germany, but the path is hard.
 

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Originally posted by maxpublic
But putting aside any arguments on whether or not Austria would consent to becoming a part of Germany (which I still believe resides in the range of 'a snowballs chance in hell'), allowing Austria to form the kingdom would kill game balance.

I have modified Fate's old events in my upcoming unification GC as Brandenburg. I have the unification triggered to occur when I own the normal provinces of "Germany" and control the German-provinces of Austria. Once the tag change occurs, all non-German lands are granted independence (Hungary, Croatia, Bohemia etc.). My modified events are not historically plausible by any means and aren't intended to be.

However, it could be an idea if Austria is used to unify Germany. In this situation, Austria would be making the choice she rejected in 1848- giving up her eastern lands for control of Germany. Austria would have to focus on Germany and leave the Danube area to Hungary or Turkey. Just an idea....
 

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Originally posted by maxpublic
Because:

- so far as I can tell from my research these three states are the only German minors with clearly recognizable, long-term imperialistic aspirations. Although I must admit that my own knowledge of the area, gleaned over the years, is mostly limited to the latter half of the game's time frame. Which is why I was going to set the earliest unification date to 1650 or thereabouts (I don't know enough about the German minors prior to 1650 to make informed judgements).

wouldn't Hannover, after George I, qualify? Perhaps there should be an event if Hannover fulfills these conditions:

Option A: Take the crown of England
Option B: Declare yourself the Duke of Germany or whatever
 

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Barbalele: that's an excellent idea! If the Emperor isn't Habsburg this would certainly give some justification for unrest in the German states. But checking Havard's bible, I see no trigger condition based on who is emperor.

Lord Tarleton: I'm a big believer in free will, so I don't hold with the idea that any event (or non-event) in history was inevitable. The probabilities decline drastically the further you get away from the most likely outcome, though, and at some point you cross into the realm of fantasy. Do I believe Germany could've become unified earlier? Sure, *if* a German Philip of Macedonia or Napoleon had risen to take the reigns. Lacking such a figure, I think the odds so small that the event series is firmly fantastical.

So, in my mind, I can't really think of a plausible *non-fantasy* explanation for the early rise of a united Germany. When I made my Greek Empire series the base starting condition was that a new Philip of Macedonia *had* arisen in Greece, and from there everything else developed in what I think is a logical fashion (that is, assuming the base fantasy condition, everything else makes sense from a historical perspective). I couldn't think of any remotely plausible historic cause for a new Greek Empire, nor could I really for Germany either. But if someone else comes up with a good rationalization that would be great! Bearing this is mind, this leads me to....

Classique: your argument is impeccable. As the Austrian Empire developed I don't see how it could've become the new Germany, but your logic shows that I'm being narrow-minded. Assuming the base fantasy condition - Austria gives up it's eastern empire (and the associated non-German cultures) - then a united Germany starting from Austria makes sense. In fact, I think it makes a lot more sense than an attempt made from either Saxony or Bavaria (although I think Brandenburg is still a good contender).

This would be a *very* interesting campaign for an Austrian player. Forget the east, forget the Balkans, unify Germany! It'd also be a hell of a lot easier to script. :)

The more I think about this, the more I'm in favor of making this an Austrian based campaign.

Max