A (somewhat unrealistic) request for the devs

[unmerged(189294)]

From my point of view, I don't think you can have just part of India. Either it should all be included or none of it because the dynamics of the politics of the subcontinent just don't work otherwise.

I wonder if the best option is to start from a completely new projection to get the shapes better, especially as that would give a way to remove the wastelands of Siberia, possibly by rotating the map a bit and cutting down the amount of sea on the northern edge.

EDIT: Though certainly one good option would be to merely make the Indian provinces look a bit more aesthetic without any province additions. Ditto for Siberia really.

 

[Finarfin]

Cause if you cut any part of the map Paradox adds I'd default to Vanilla.... sadly..

I am of a mind with this position, though I wouldn't go back to non-modded CK2. I would simply find a different mod. I don't want to see the completely new playing area that is India reduced to just big chunks of land. I want it all!

 

[Meneth]

From my point of view, I don't think you can have just part of India. Either it should all be included or none of it because the dynamics of the politics of the subcontinent just don't work otherwise.

Actually, India had numerous frontiers across which little interaction happened. So it is very much possible to just include part of India while still having everything make sense.

Here's a map of those frontiers:

 

[theKing1988]

Including only Rajastan would match pretty well with the stable North-South divide that existed in India, as Meneths map also shows. Only the border to the east with Bengal would be arbitrary and artificial.

But i'm just happy as long as we get most of Northern India beyond the Indus.

 

[AndreiTLC]

Western African provinces,should really be removed,they re usseles,and quite frankly I would rather play an indian than a backward african tribe,who also is not well represented by the game s mechanics

 

[unmerged(189294)]

Actually, India had numerous frontiers across which little interaction happened. So it is very much possible to just include part of India while still having everything make sense.

Here's a map of those frontiers:

Well, based on that map we'd need at least Rajasthan and Bengal, along with Orissa and the Gondwana. Assam could be cut off if needs be.

However, the line of those provinces brings in Gujarat as a matter of course, and the northern part of the South Indian continuum as well, thus meaning you have an arbitrary border in Bengal or an arbitrary border in Karnataka or the whole peninsular.

Meanwhile if you're going to do something with the Omani trade routes then Kutch and Kerala are the main locations you need.

EDIT: And honestly based on the projection PI have used if you were to draw a vertical line that kept the Steppe Provinces you end up with most of the Tarim Basin and the whole of the coast down to part way through Kerala so you've got arbitrary borders all along there.

 

[Meneth]

Well, based on that map we'd need at least Rajasthan and Bengal, along with Orissa and the Gondwana. Assam could be cut off if needs be.

However, the line of those provinces brings in Gujarat as a matter of course, and the northern part of the South Indian continuum as well, thus meaning you have an arbitrary border in Bengal or an arbitrary border in Karnataka or the whole peninsular.

Meanwhile if you're going to do something with the Omani trade routes then Kutch and Kerala are the main locations you need.

EDIT: And honestly based on the projection PI have used if you were to draw a vertical line that kept the Steppe Provinces you end up with most of the Tarim Basin and the whole of the coast down to part way through Kerala so you've got arbitrary borders all along there.

One could cut it off at Awadh without it being too unreasonable.
Or include Bengal but not Orissa.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

One could cut it off at Awadh without it being too unreasonable.
Or include Bengal but not Orissa.

I think that in you include both sides of the sub-continent, but don't attach them together with sea zones, it would be odd. But if you wrap India in sea zones it is odd not to include southern India too... so I am torn between wanting plenty of new land and not wanting to mash the designs of the dev team.

If I can ask, if there has been improvement on game speed; why is there a worry about including all of India? Or will it be released in stages as the team finishes it?

 

[theKing1988]

I think that in you include both sides of the sub-continent, but don't attach them together with sea zones, it would be odd. But if you wrap India in sea zones it is odd not to include southern India too... so I am torn between wanting plenty of new land and not wanting to mash the designs of the dev team.

If I can ask, if there has been improvement on game speed; why is there a worry about including all of India? Or will it be released in stages as the team finishes it?

The team would like to actually get some use out of the optimizations and not be left at the slower speed that SWMH is already running at.

 

[unmerged(189294)]

One could cut it off at Awadh without it being too unreasonable.
Or include Bengal but not Orissa.

I guess I just think that chopping out 2/3's of India kind of makes it feel a bit too much like making SMWH a mod for people who didn't see the point of RoI in the first place. It just doesn't feel right to effectively give people a choice between the new features and the nicer map.

 

[theKing1988]

I guess I just think that chopping out 2/3's of India kind of makes it feel a bit too much like making SMWH a mod for people who didn't see the point of RoI in the first place. It just doesn't feel right to effectively give people a choice between the new features and the nicer map.

I would probably need to find a way to save up enough money to buy a new computer if they included all of India :laugh:. But given the choice between Vanilla and SWMH i will always choose SWMH.

 

[Finarfin]

I don't think it's reasonable to think that if your system meets the minimum specs for a game that you should expect to be able to play mods. Mods should be for those who want to go above and beyond what the publisher releases. To make mods decisions based on computers that are just able to run the base game is like taking a Ferrari and putting a Yugo engine in it.

 

[prozorovsky]

I would rather India not be castrated. If the proposed changes were to be made, I probably wouldn't bother with the area again.

Then again, I haven't experienced the repercussions of keeping everything as is either. So it's rather hard to say what I would prefer, until I see for myself.

 

[theKing1988]

I don't think it's reasonable to think that if your system meets the minimum specs for a game that you should expect to be able to play mods. Mods should be for those who want to go above and beyond what the publisher releases. To make mods decisions based on computers that are just able to run the base game is like taking a Ferrari and putting a Yugo engine in it.

I don't think the decision is made entirely with that in mind though. But when members of the team will have difficulties just running the game if the entirety of India is added you can't really fault them for having it in mind. It is them who have put a lot of work into this and will have to put a lot more work into it before they're done.

The SWMH experience will improve just by adding parts of India imo. You don't necessarily need all of it to achieve that. And who is to say that they don't decide to expand the map to the RoI boundaries in the future if they get the opportunity to do so. Things change.

 

[Finarfin]

I don't think the decision is made entirely with that in mind though. But when members of the team will have difficulties just running the game if the entirety of India is added you can't really fault them for having it in mind. It is them who have put a lot of work into this and will have to put a lot more work into it before they're done.

Understood. I'm just greedy. I would hate to see possibilities lost just because of machine limitations.

The SWMH experience will improve just by adding parts of India imo. You don't necessarily need all of it to achieve that.

I'm open-minded to giving things a try. However, this is the one game where I immediately buy any DLC released, and I just want to be able to incorporate each one as much as possible and really have no desire to play an unmodded game.

 

[elvain]

Western African provinces,should really be removed,they re usseles,and quite frankly I would rather play an indian than a backward african tribe,who also is not well represented by the game s mechanics

Well, I apologize, but this kind of reactions always makes me laugh. West African civilization back then was probably so backward that most of Europe (except The Mediterranean area, France and parts of Germany) would be envious about their high civilization
Maybe even parts of South India, as the civilization of Ancient Ghana was quite developed. Also there are quite good game mechanics in HIP (VIET Immersion), which do reflect this region and they will some time soon be compatible with SWMH.

Furthemore, performance is only one of reasons why we decided to remove parts of India, the other similarily imprtant was map projection - our goal is to have inhabited areas ihnabited and wastelands as wastelands, if possible, we really don't want to have large inhabited areas like Tibet or Tarim basin turn into Terra Incognita, so we decided to cut the map elswhere than the Vanilla.

 

[theKing1988]

Well, I apologize, but this kind of reactions always makes me laugh. West African civilization back then was probably so backward that most of Europe (except The Mediterranean area, France and parts of Germany) would be envious about their high civilization
Maybe even parts of South India, as the civilization of Ancient Ghana was quite developed. Also there are quite good game mechanics in HIP (VIET Immersion), which do reflect this region and they will some time soon be compatible with SWMH.

Furthemore, performance is only one of reasons why we decided to remove parts of India, the other similarily imprtant was map projection - our goal is to have inhabited areas ihnabited and wastelands as wastelands, if possible, we really don't want to have large inhabited areas like Tibet or Tarim basin turn into Terra Incognita, so we decided to cut the map elswhere than the Vanilla.

Having clearly inhabited and also quite important areas be wastelands does look slightly odd to me as well, i won't deny that.

 

[elvain]

I think that in you include both sides of the sub-continent, but don't attach them together with sea zones, it would be odd. But if you wrap India in sea zones it is odd not to include southern India too... so I am torn between wanting plenty of new land and not wanting to mash the designs of the dev team.

If I can ask, if there has been improvement on game speed; why is there a worry about including all of India? Or will it be released in stages as the team finishes it?

The problem also is that if we add all of India, there is a possibility that in future it would need an overhaul, which means province borders being redrawn and possible some provinces added.
We will get as far east as the projection will allow us.

Having clearly inhabited and also quite important areas be wastelands does look slightly odd to me as well, i won't deny that.

That's what we are trying to avoid.

 

[vyshan]

I really do not want to see India gone. I want the whole subcontient done in the awesome style that is SWMH.

 

[elvain]

I don't think it's reasonable to think that if your system meets the minimum specs for a game that you should expect to be able to play mods. Mods should be for those who want to go above and beyond what the publisher releases. To make mods decisions based on computers that are just able to run the base game is like taking a Ferrari and putting a Yugo engine in it.

blame me.

The problem is that even now loading the game (vanilla or SWMH) takes 5 and sometimes as much as 10 minutes for me. If it takes even longer, it would make my participation on this mod impossible. Of course I can leave to make the mod better....