Wasteland, Eurocentrism, and a petition for an expansion focusing on Africa

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mcmanusaur

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Sep 1, 2013
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I know that this topic is brought up every few months on a semi-regular basis, but I think it's important and Paradox has yet to address it.

This is EU4's map as it currently exists:
OGYvafd.png


Notice anything, aside from how far the map has come since previous installments of EU? Well, let me phrase that question in a different way- do you notice any areas of the world that seem to be lagging behind in the fidelity of their representation? Try matching it up to this set of historical population density maps:

world-maps-of-population-density-over-the-last-5000-years-goldewijk-beusen-and-janssen-2010.png


At least half of sub-Saharan Africa remains wasteland, and as the above maps demonstrate there was historically a significant population in these areas (specifically around the African Great Lakes region). Sure, the Congo Basin contains a vast tropical rainforest, and the Namib/ Kalahari Deserts comprise a large portion of modern Namibia and Botswana, but that accounts for roughly a third of the wasteland in sub-Saharan Africa.

Yes, I know "tropical disease" and "it has Europa in the name" and that the "Scramble for Africa" didn't truly begin until the 1880's, but still. Just because the Europeans didn't happen to colonize and conquer these regions until later doesn't mean that they were completely cut off from any contact with outside civilization until then. Even by simply looking at the terrain map in-game you can sort of tell there's some funny business re: what is and isn't wasteland.

It's not as if these regions weren't populated. Quite to the contrary of what I've heard some people on this forum argue, this article indicates that the lowest point for Africa's population relative to the global population occurred at the turn of the 20th century, long after the game's current end date. Neither is it a case of there not being any states or empires for the game to represent in the African Great Lakes region, which is currently little more than a giant chunk of wasteland.

kingdoms.jpg


The game's simplistic notion of "Westernization" and Eurocentric trade setup are bad enough, but fine. The game is first and foremost about European imperialists and their exploits. It's somewhat unlikely that we'll get a radical overhaul of those mechanics at this point in the game's lifecycle anyway. But does Africa really deserve this lax of a treatment compared to, say, the Americas, which are full of empty provinces as well as an assortment of OPMs that hardly fit the game's criteria for being counted as states? The only other continent with such a high fraction of wasteland is Australia, which incidentally also has a "black" indigenous population.

Do I have reason to believe that Paradox are a bunch of racists? No. But do I think that representing Africa at such a low level of fidelity relative to the rest of the world is a case of unacceptable negligence? Absolutely. If you don't want to add a bunch of new tags for all the Great Lakes kingdoms, then that's fine. But at the very least, put some non-wasteland provinces there to recognize that these regions were populated and productive areas.

For the next expansion, what about something focusing on sub-Saharan Africa and fleshing out that part of the map? Has Paradox ever released an expansion pack focusing specifically on Africa (as they have for other regions in the past) for any of their games? I sure haven't been able to find record of any such expansion, so I'm guessing the answer is no. Can we all agree that's a bit slack?
 
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The problem is that those regions would end up being painted with Spain, Great Britain, Portugal or France. Instead of the native kingdoms, which would be even more ahistorical. Unlike America which is expected to be painted by those colonizers.
Of course I would like more realism (and better Madagascar).
 
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Its a well established fact that everything outside of Europe is handled terribly in this game. Don't worry though, we need more content for Europe in the next dlc.

A big part of the problem is tech groups. The extremely arbitrary tech malus ensures that all AI africans start off behind and stay behind in tech, making them into pinatas for players or AI colonizers.

Personally I'd think the region that was the richest and most powerful in this period (China) deserves content before Africa, but that's just me. Hey, in a perfect world both would receive an update in the same patch, right?
 
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I know that this topic is brought up every few months on a semi-regular basis, but I think it's important and Paradox has yet to address it.

This is a map of EU4's map as it currently exists:
OGYvafd.png


Notice anything, aside from how far the map has come since previous installments of EU? Well, let me phrase that question in a different way- do you notice any areas of the world that seem to be lagging behind in the fidelity of their representation? Try matching it up to this set of historical population density maps:

world-maps-of-population-density-over-the-last-5000-years-goldewijk-beusen-and-janssen-2010.png


At least half of sub-Saharan Africa remains wasteland, and as the above maps demonstrate there was historically a significant population in these areas (specifically around the African Great Lakes region). Sure, the Congo Basin contains a vast tropical rainforest, and the Namib/ Kalahari Deserts comprise a large portion of modern Namibia and Botswana, but that accounts for roughly a third of the wasteland in sub-Saharan Africa.

Yes, I know "tropical disease" and "it has Europa in the name" and that the "Scramble for Africa" didn't truly begin until the 1880's, but still. Just because the Europeans didn't happen to colonize and conquer these regions until later doesn't mean that they were completely cut off from any contact with outside civilization until then. Even by simply looking at the terrain map in-game you can sort of tell there's some funny business re: what is and isn't wasteland.

It's not as if these regions weren't populated. Quite to the contrary of what I've heard some people on this forum argue, this article indicates that the lowest point for Africa's population relative to the global population occurred at the turn of the 20th century, long after the game's current end date. Neither is it a case of there not being any states or empires for the game to represent in the African Great Lakes region, which is currently little more than a giant chunk of wasteland.

kingdoms.jpg


The game's simplistic notion of "Westernization" and Eurocentric trade setup are bad enough, but fine. The game is first and foremost about European imperialists and their exploits. It's somewhat unlikely that we'll get a radical overhaul of those mechanics at this point in the game's lifecycle anyway. But does Africa really deserve this lax of a treatment compared to, say, the Americas, which are full of empty provinces as well as an assortment of OPMs that hardly fit the game's criteria for being counted as states? The only other continent with such a high fraction of wasteland is Australia, which incidentally also has a "black" indigenous population.

Do I have reason to believe that Paradox are a bunch of racists? No. But do I think that representing Africa at such a low level of fidelity relative to the rest of the world is a case of unacceptable negligence? Absolutely. If you don't want to add a bunch of new tags for all the Great Lakes kingdoms, then that's fine. But at the very least, put some non-wasteland provinces there to recognize that these regions were populated and productive areas.

For the next expansion, what about something focusing on sub-Saharan Africa and fleshing out that part of the map? Has Paradox ever released an expansion pack focusing specifically on Africa (as they have for other regions in the past) for any of their games? I sure haven't been able to find record of any such expansion, so I'm guessing the answer is no. Can we all agree that's a bit slack?

The reason for this is, as I understand it, to stop the situation wrt not exploring africa in the EUIV period. That is, if Africa were more fleshed out, it would be more invaded by Europeans earlier. This is undesirable. Good case to be made for adding tags in the regions which aren't wasteland where they aren't atm though. Zulus for example.
 
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The reason for this is, as I understand it, to stop the situation wrt not exploring africa in the EUIV period. That is, if Africa were more fleshed out, it would be more invaded by Europeans earlier. This is undesirable. Good case to be made for adding tags in the regions which aren't wasteland where they aren't atm though. Zulus for example.

If they got rid of tech groups and started all tags off on the same footing this would not be a problem. Songhai would be able to repel AI Europeans if they weren't 6 or more mil techs behind.

However, EU4 determines technological development according to what hat your country happens to wear. Feathers and masks give the biggest penalties because all your mana goes into style points.
 
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The problem is that those regions would end up being painted with Spain, Great Britain, Portugal or France.
Then make Africa have higher attrition rates for non-African nations and make interior African provinces harder to colonize.

The Scramble for Africa didn't occur in 1880 because Europe was too busy to conquer Africa. It occurred when it did because advances in medicine, logistics, and warfare made it possible for Europeans to move armies into the African interior.

If a European army tries to march through Africa, it's going to get a nice, warm helping of malaria, something the game doesn't simulate.

The answer isn't to have as few provinces in Africa as possible. It's to simulate attrition in a way that discourages African expansion.
 
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I think that in order of how ahistorically suckish they are the regions would be:
Americas (At least asia has strong china and india, america has nothing)
Asia (The far east didn't fall behind the euros until the industrial revolution, yet here most of the far east is behind by tech 4....)
Africa (for the reasons explained in the OP)
I support any expansion bringing the ROTW closer to their historical power, after all the EU4 timeframe coincides with the rise of europe, it was definitely not dominant in 1444.
 
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I would like to stress that expansion into Africa can be slowed down by NI's remember that at one point Hungary was the bulwark of Europe and no-one tried to conquer it because of the coring cost (at a maximum of 150) adding NI's or decison that add corring cost and some doggy province borders would go along way in slowing down expansion into africa
 
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I would like to stress that expansion into Africa can be slowed down by NI's remember that at one point Hungary was the bulwark of Europe and no-one tried to conquer it because of the coring cost (at a maximum of 150) adding NI's or decison that add corring cost and some doggy province borders would go along way in slowing down expansion into africa
But that still wouldn't be a good representation of why it took the eruos so long to conquer africa:because they COULDN'T conquer it. AI africa should hold on for way longer than it does right now.
 
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But that still wouldn't be a good representation of why it took the eruos so long to conquer africa:because they COULDN'T conquer it. AI africa should hold on for way longer than it does right now.

True but unless Paradox adds malaria coring cost is the best way to do it (plus I think you're underestimating just how no one would attack Hungary I had games back then were Hungary never lost a single province).
 
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Sub-Saharan non-east, non-south Africa should definitely either be all wasteland or completely filled out. As it is it's kind of weird. But it's the truth that people outside of the region really had very little contact with the people living in it during the game period, to the extent that Europeans thought that there was a massive mountain range criss-crossing Africa called the Mountains of Kong/Mountains of the Moon until like 1900.
 
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True but unless Paradox adds malaria coring cost is the best way to do it (plus I think you're underestimating just how no one would attack Hungary I had games back then were Hungary never lost a single province).
malaria wasn't the only thing, it was the biggest deterrent, but definitely not the only deterrent. The africans could hold off an invasion from the colonials (with help from malaria of course). Late in the timeline having the ability to just buy slaves from the local rulers and then sell them for huge amounts of cash was another reason to leave them alone.
 
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Then make Africa have higher attrition rates for non-African nations and make interior African provinces harder to colonize.

The Scramble for Africa didn't occur in 1880 because Europe was too busy to conquer Africa. It occurred when it did because advances in medicine, logistics, and warfare made it possible for Europeans to move armies into the African interior.

If a European army tries to march through Africa, it's going to get a nice, warm helping of malaria, something the game doesn't simulate.

The answer isn't to have as few provinces in Africa as possible. It's to simulate attrition in a way that discourages African expansion.

I would like to stress that expansion into Africa can be slowed down by NI's remember that at one point Hungary was the bulwark of Europe and no-one tried to conquer it because of the coring cost (at a maximum of 150) adding NI's or decison that add corring cost and some doggy province borders would go along way in slowing down expansion into africa

Between higher coring costs, increased attrition for European tech groups, and decreased growth/settler chance for colonies, as you guys mention, I think you could already come up with something that sufficiently disincentivizes European nations from colonizing inner Africa.
 
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The last thing this game needs is yet more hostile core creation cost in national ideas. It is an incredibly lazy way to simulate regions that were hard to conquer.
 
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