Suggestions/Fixes - UI & Management Functionality Enhancements - DEAR DEVS ;)

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_Mee_Jee_

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Sep 17, 2016
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Hello All! / Dear Devs ;)

Newbie 1st post here. As in the title, I'd like to suggest feedback and new ideas about various UI issues and functionality. I've thought about these ideas quite a bit and hope you might like them or maybe find them interesting to talk about as they seem like decent potential additions/enhancements to the arsenal of management tools already implemented. A few more thoughts after the list. Please bear in mind I am not a coder - I just love games, and this game in particular.

  1. DRAG BOX SELECTION / MORE REFINED SELECTION - in unit selection menus:

    when clicking "O" to bring up the army panel I believe it should be possible to create a drag box when selecting units instead of just shift clicking etc. When there's 50-100 or more divisions, it's a long process to re-organise and select all of one type or even your whole army (if you need to without using the map due to units too spread out). This is especially in multiplayer when you're at speed 4 early game and speed 3 most of the time. If you mis-click halfway down the list, starting a again is horribly inefficient and uncomfortable at best.

    alternatively implementing a "Right Click" and "Select All of this Type" (or select all) option would be awesome. So, when sorting - click the "Type" sort column, then either right click and select all/all of this type, or drag and select however many you want. This would smooth out a major part of the game and make more room for tactics and strategy.

    Drag selecting would also work wonders for using over the top left list of units that pops up when you click an army. Or when you drag select on the map and they pop up in the top left for further management/sorting. Because of the way stacking works it can be hard to select specific armies or groups on the fly, without sometimes getting into intricate shift clicking. This idea should smooth that out. That said, I love a lot of the ideas already implemented, e.g. "S" to select half - such a nice simple way to split and sub split armies quickly.

  2. CONTROL GROUPS FOR ARMIES ("ctrl 1-0, assigning hotkeys"):

    Maybe this is a cliche that Paradox want to avoid considering every RTS ever pretty much uses ctrl groups. But that shouldn't be a reason not to do something that has a lot of functionality and a strong block of muscle memory space in many RTS gamers' brains. We have a whole number row just above the qwerty row we are already using a lot, it would make life so so so much easier if we could number our armies and select/zoom to them with a tap of "1-0" or a double tap. Looking around for the General Portrait or the Theatre Icon when in the heat of a macro management crescendo while away from the battlefield (especially in multiplayer) can be worrying when you just need to get back to the army/battle at hand as quickly as possible after doing some macro-management. This could be totally eliminated with control groups. It can of course also help for microing between your different armies too.

  3. SORTABLE THEATRES - HOTKEY / BUTTON or DRAG & DROP:

    Probably needs less description. Simple to say, not sure (I don't code) how easy to implement. Simply adding a tiny "Title Bar" or clickable surface to grip for drag and drop up and down to the Theatres in the top right. Alternatively, the ability to click up or down to sort the Theatres in any shape or form. Being able to half organise but not to structure the position of the theatres is a nightmare when trying to -feel organised- and -know where everything is- in the middle of a messy unpredictable game about war. e.g. If I make a North West, Centre West, South West and Far Eastern type arrangment of theatres when playing the USSR, it's important for me to have these in descending order so that the bottom one is the one most far away to the right, and the other 3 are in descending order with some relationship to where they are on the map. I then know the top 3 are my Europe facing fronts, the 2nd one probably being my main army group, and the bottom one takes a less priority (depending on the relationship with Japan). A bit autistic? maybe - I'm sure we all have our quirks when organising things, and I think this would help a lot of people reconcile theirs ;)

  4. SORTABLE GENERALS/ARMIES - HOTKEY / BUTTON or DRAG AND DROP:

    Same reasoning as above, but for the Generals/Armies at the bottom of the screen. We may all have preferences for organising our different armies and to have them just random can be very hard to not get confused when redeploying one army to another front etc.

  5. LARGER PRODUCTION MENU, DRAG & DROP or HOTKEY, in columns (not moddable?):

    There is a mod for larger prod menu, to prevent excessive scrolling. For some reason the mod default sorts the order into rows and not columns, so to click up or down to sort the production the factories/equipment in question moves sideways instead of up/down. A Dev made larger enhanced production menu, with improved sorting/drag drop, would be a godsend to us! (imo)

  6. RESIZE / RELOCATION OF NEWS & POPUPS:

    In single player it's fine as you get the popup and can pause. In multiplayer there are a LOT of popups sometimes coming all at once, some of which you really should read to see what's going on outside your front, with your alliances and other world events. But you may be in a crucial tank battle, surrounding or trying to escape a surround etc. When 5 popups come all at once the ONLY thing to do is get rid of them all as quickly as possible. This has implications for your map awareness and your decisions in the current battle if you miss the news. It would be good to optionally resize the popups, make them a clickable alert, or reposition them a little to the side so you can see your central vision on the map where you might be managing forces.

    Also I think having a full scale popup with an OK button when someone is lagging is a recipe for lagger hate crimes ;) couple that with the fact that the game slows down a notch everytime someone lags, and you get a lot of impatient and upset players. I think the popup should be downsized and the OK box removed, and the slow down of the game should be an optional check box (when playing with friends you will care if they desync, other public games the worse laggers will often get kicked anyway so it's less of an issue if they start falling behind).

  7. HOTKEY TO CANCEL BATTLEPLANS QUICKLY:

    Quick touch on this, as I'd like to talk about battleplans in another thread. But it is kind of a UI/management thing. To be able to cancel all, or cancel the selected Generals' battleplans using a hotkey on the central keyboard seems essential. When you are well into an operation and advancing in a war, frontlines can get very very messy. It would be ideal to be able to delete them quickly so you can redraw them, so as not to fiddle around figuring out which General you have, which plans you need to delete, reach across keyboard to find delete, then click again (or if you are me, mis-click)

In summary, I've been enjoying the interface quite a bit, modding it to make some tweaks and improvements, and overall I think a lot of things feel really intuitive (in particular the row of hotkeys along the top matching the row of buttons, or the shift clicking or ctrl clicking).

I do believe however, that we are just on the edge of a truly functional and intuitive UI and management experience. There are some elements that are still too clunky and slow down the management experience quite a bit, especially when playing as a large major such as USSR or USA, or Germany mid-late game.



(Personal Angle Here).
This is my first post in the forums and I'm actually quite nervous. I'm a grown man but this game makes me feel like a little boy a times, haha ;) I've come to realise that I really love this game and care about it a lot and have been waiting for it through years of playing lots and lots of other games for 15-100 hours and searching for a game to commit to. This game, I could sink hundreds and hundreds of hours into, recruit old best friends in the mix, and buy all the DLC and be a real fanboy. But it is only really a 75% game when you think about it at this stage. It's oozing potential and fills a few awesome niches, but it's just not quite there yet. I know the journey to the next 15% to get it to "Brilliant" or "Outstanding" or "Classic" is going to be exponentially harder. Hopefully I can help with some feedback and suggestions and constructive criticism, I will make a few more posts with other ideas and feedback that I hope we can discuss, and I hope the Devs might find helpful too.

Thanks for reading!

Feedback on the post would be appreciated - format, detail, method to discuss issues etc. This is my first proper feedback post ever ;) feedback on the feedback would be awesome as if I get my feedback bug free it potentially bodes well for overall development of myself and the discussion and the game. Would rather not use "spoiler" as it's not exactly a spoiler but might make it easier for people to read the key points quickly.
 
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good first post^^. I mostly agree ( with 3 not so much, but then why not ... couldn´t hurt ).

I hope you don´t get reactions like .... "AI is more important" ( it is, but suggestions with a lower priority should ofc be
considered too ).

Modders will most likely address this problem first anyway.
 
Re. #1: It should really just work like all spreadsheet apps or file managers. Shift+click selects a whole interval of items, while Ctrl+click does what Shift+click does now. Band-box select is a weird paradigm for that type of interface. It’s a well-solved problem already.
 
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good first post^^. I mostly agree ( with 3 not so much, but then why not ... couldn´t hurt ).

I hope you don´t get reactions like .... "AI is more important" ( it is, but suggestions with a lower priority should ofc be
considered too ).

Modders will most likely address this problem first anyway.

Thanks very much :)

I would agree with anyone saying AI is more important. I have been having a long discussion in steam forum about AI, but that task is epic.

These on the other hand I imagine they would be relatively easier to implement and could potentially feature in a patch much like the new unit training queues.

I have spoken to modders about some of these ideas, and I believe most of them would need hardcoding.

#2 is an absolute must.

agreed, just didn't wanna put it Number 1 and be "that RTS guy" ;)

Re. #1: It should really just work like all spreadsheet apps or file managers. Shift+click selects a whole interval of items, while Ctrl+click does what Shift+click does now. Band-box select is a weird paradigm for that type of interface. It’s a well-solved problem already.

awesome, personally not well practiced with spreadsheets, but yeah the general idea of my post was to take some foundations of intuitive behaviours we might expect that we might have experienced in other apps etc and use them as inspiration. You might be in a menu and just wonder "why can't I ctrl click here?". Drag box would still be my favourite, because you could combine it with ctrl click and take a group here, a few single units there, another group, and make the army you are trying to organise. The shift click/ctrl click behaviour sounds great. Being able to get a whole lot of one type, that would be be enough really. ANYTHING, to prevent the individual clicking of a row of 50+ units to select them from that menu.

I'll edit your suggestion into the original post if that's OK?
 
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Regarding drag and drop, it likely isn't going to happen:

I would love drag and drop in every interface, but to be honest our GUI system is horrific. Doing drag and drop takes so much effort and complexity to add that we often avoid it. Could happen eventually though, but its bad bang-for-buck coder time.

Also, out of curiosity, do you constantly play on speed four or five, without ever slowing down? Because that's the only way I'd find most of these suggestions at all useful, personally.

I've also never seen a MP game that goes above speed three, and am most definitely not a fan of reducing the already far too low number of pop-ups to nothing. In my opinion, what this game needs are more pop-ups, with the message settings that all the previous Paradox games had, and the scrolling message log that you could set most messages to show up as instead of popping up in the center of the screen.

On the subject of larger windows, I agree with you, and would point you toward these mods.

I'd also like to be able to sort generals on the bottom bar, it can be somewhat annoying to have them random, I agree.


Finally, I'd suggest you ask a mod to have this thread moved to the Suggestions subforum, where it belongs. :)
 
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As another HOI4- and community noob:

Nice post, nice ideas. Also I think the UI needs more clarity, many stats and info is hidden in tool tips (which are really informative - probably a trade-off), so you really do have to know where to look.

I really wish there would be more well thought, useful and sortable tables, the UI seems cluttered with many little icons (to me). Though this is probably a design decision.

Also I think battles really need more accessible (or maybe just bigger and more visible) info on who won or lost for what reason.

I'm also not a coder myself and I realize this is probably a quest for the holy grail of UI design by an experienced developer, who knows how to do stuff and what most people want (3D models it seems, but those can be turned off), but maybe one modder or another gets some inspiration.

Keep up the good work and community support! And community, keep up the likeable and welcoming atmosphere!
 
Regarding drag and drop, it likely isn't going to happen:

Also, out of curiosity, do you constantly play on speed four or five, without ever slowing down? Because that's the only way I'd find most of these suggestions at all useful, personally.

I've also never seen a MP game that goes above speed three, and am most definitely not a fan of reducing the already far too low number of pop-ups to nothing. In my opinion, what this game needs are more pop-ups, with the message settings that all the previous Paradox games had, and the scrolling message log that you could set most messages to show up as instead of popping up in the center of the screen.

On the subject of larger windows, I agree with you, and would point you toward these mods.

I'd also like to be able to sort generals on the bottom bar, it can be somewhat annoying to have them random, I agree.

Finally, I'd suggest you ask a mod to have this thread moved to the Suggestions subforum, where it belongs. :)

Thanks for your reply.

-Very helpful to know about the podcat quote. My immediate gut reaction to that is "OK, but let's at least have hotkey based sorting of everything I mentioned" or even just ANY form of sortable method e.g. select an item to sort and shift or ctrl + up or down/left right, or similar. Or more of the current method to sort the production queues and other, with the click or shift click.

-I play on speed 3 and 4 in peacetime as per normal in multi, but maybe this is just a difference in taste. I think that anything at all that speeds up and smooths out the management experience would be very useful, no matter what speed. Anything that removes some cognitive effort and lessens confusion. It might be that I'm dyslexic, and maybe a little on the autism spectrum ;) . I come from a Warcraft 3 and SC background as the last great games that I sunk thousands of hours into when I was younger, so I guess being able to click very quickly and manage everything via hotkeys is important to me. More specifically about the speed and the popups - There is one multi game in particular where I had about 10 popups in very close proximity as the war was escalating, and I was on the USSR front trying to manage a battle with some tight micro going on from both sides.

-I don't disagree with you about the popups, and I think we agree here. It's about the implementation of the popups that's the issue for me. Scrolling message log sounds like a nice alternative. Even a hidden menu/log that you can hotkey/click and reference when you need. Even just placing them to the side, removing the OK button and shrinking a little would be a a great improvement IMO.

-I have been playing with the different mods, but spoke to the modder of the bigger production interface and the reason he can't make columns is because of how it's hard coded. These menus are less of a worry from my perspective as they need to be sortable anyway so they are on some level. But hotkeys would be great even if drag and drop isn't possible. I will take your suggestions and points and make a little edit on the wording of the OP. Merely "Sortable" would be ideal for many of these, not necessarily drag and drop.

-will look into the subforum. I did try to find the subs, but this forums layout is a little different to others I'm used to so, (probably just being lazy tbh) ;)

thanks again, will check out your suggestion thread soon for sure!


As another HOI4- and community noob:

Nice post, nice ideas. Also I think the UI needs more clarity, many stats and info is hidden in tool tips (which are really informative - probably a trade-off), so you really do have to know where to look.

I really wish there would be more well thought, useful and sortable tables, the UI seems cluttered with many little icons (to me). Though this is probably a design decision.

Also I think battles really need more accessible (or maybe just bigger and more visible) info on who won or lost for what reason.

I'm also not a coder myself and I realize this is probably a quest for the holy grail of UI design by an experienced developer, who knows how to do stuff and what most people want (3D models it seems, but those can be turned off), but maybe one modder or another gets some inspiration.

Keep up the good work and community support! And community, keep up the likeable and welcoming atmosphere!

Thanks very much for the nice reply.

I don't mind the tooltips so much, I think a lot of that is well implemented.

Sortable tables, yes for sure. I like the point above about just taking the standard spreadsheet hotkeys etc and putting them in game. We are all well rehearsed in various methods of organisation from different apps and games. Just taking inspiration from some of the most obvious would smooth it out for most of us. What I enjoyed about learning this game was I could just teach myself how to handle things and find the hotkeys via tooltip/hover or it was just listed in the interface somewhere. But then I guess I expected even more (seemingly obvious to me) ability to ctrl click this, drag and drop that, because it was in so many other parts of the game.
 
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Great first post :) I agree with pretty much all of your list there. Its all stuff I see us working into the game over time for sure. I'v actually been curious why nobody had asked for control groups yet
 
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Honest answer: Because you don't need control groups at the moment, when your 100 divisions push from Eastern Poland to the Rhine with one click. No need to select them again :)

To be fair, I have to try this again with the new buffs. And without Spain in my faction, which led to Germany (unsuccesfully) trying to storm the Pyrenees with 150 divisions which was around 2/3 of their army.

The suggestions here are all solid and I would like to see them implemented.
 
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One thing that I think would make creating air wings easier is to have a tab which lets you select the specific type of aircraft your looking for so you don't have to scroll all the way through a whole bunch of different model types.
 
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The order in my bigger production window is as it is for two reasons, first I'm not even sure if I could change it via modding but second I think it's actually better this way, if you have it the other way around, you'd have situations like:

1 11 21
2 12 22
3 13 23
4 14 24
5 15 25

and the ones inbetween cannot be seen.


ObssesedNuker, this might be a little help: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=756708394
 
-I don't disagree with you about the popups, and I think we agree here. It's about the implementation of the popups that's the issue for me. Scrolling message log sounds like a nice alternative. Even a hidden menu/log that you can hotkey/click and reference when you need. Even just placing them to the side, removing the OK button and shrinking a little would be a a great improvement IMO.
How would removing the OK button work? Would you add in a new button to close the pop up?

-will look into the subforum. I did try to find the subs, but this forums layout is a little different to others I'm used to so, (probably just being lazy tbh) ;)
The subforums are listed first on the game's forum page, above the pinned threads.

Also, two things I'm surprised you didn't ask for was a minimap, so you could easily jump to locations around the world with a single click instead of having to pan (ideally the minimap would have the new feature the EU4 minimap is going to have, where it indicates where your troops are), and alerts/pop-ups or when troops finish training and ships are completed, if they aren't assigned to automatically attach to an army or navy.


Or more of the current method to sort the production queues and other, with the click or shift click.
One idea I've seen would be to be able to click on the number that shows the item's place in the queue, and get a text entry field to type in a new number for where the item's new position should be. An alternative idea that I brought up somewhere was that the queue's window could scroll as you click the up or down button, keeping the item you are moving in the queue on the same spot of the screen, so you can rapidly click five times to move an item up or down five spots in the queue.

There is one multi game in particular where I had about 10 popups in very close proximity as the war was escalating, and I was on the USSR front trying to manage a battle with some tight micro going on from both sides.
Just a heads up, if the pop up only has the "OK" option, you can usually dismiss it by pressing Enter. (The keyboard enter key, anyway. The numberpad enter key doesn't usually work for some reason.)
 
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Great first post :) I agree with pretty much all of your list there. Its all stuff I see us working into the game over time for sure. I'v actually been curious why nobody had asked for control groups yet

There have been several topics asking for control groups, among other things. They just happened to all be made during the summer.
 
Great first post. I agree with most if not all your suggestions.

don't worry too much about anyone coming by screaming about the AI needing work first. Not all the devs work on AI so these are things they can work on during the upcoming patches!
 
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I miss the usual Paradox message log, too. It's often a bit spammy, but you really don't have to look at every "Unit x arrived at region y" message, if you don't want to, but I find it much easier to maintain some kind of situational awareness. In a real-time game with such a vast scope and so many different things happening at the same time, it's easy to miss an important development somewhere on the planet, especially if you're playing a major nation with interest in many different or far stretched parts of the world.

Then again, most other PDX titles featuring a message log are turn based, and I think it wouldn't be fun to get spammed by hundreds of messages in a short time in a RT game. Too much would probably disrupt the flow of the game, but some more filter- and sortable info about important - and maybe not so important - developments would be nice.

In my opinion, what this game needs are more pop-ups, with the message settings that all the previous Paradox games had, and the scrolling message log that you could set most messages to show up as instead of popping up in the center of the screen.
 
How about historic Division numbering like in HOI3.

This means a text file that has the division "names" or more like the numbers.
The default German "Motorized-Infanterie-Division" would have when contructed the 2, 3, 10, etc. Historic numbers. This running numbering is ruins the historic aspect.
People how doesn't care about this matter would notice that numbering is not 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
Renaming the army to even close to historic is just too mutch.
Every time you build normal "Infanterie-Division" it add's the smallest number that doesn't exist.

So if you make new template like "Infanterie-Brigade" and the text file doesn't have the numbers for that named template it uses the normal numbering.


People who doesn't care division numbers don't lose anything, and people like me wins and a could actually play the game.
If you want to have this stubid numbering that makes no sence when you give numbers to your divisions. There could be a checkbox to use/ingnore the name file.


What do you all think.
 
most other PDX titles featuring a message log are turn based, and I think it wouldn't be fun to get spammed by hundreds of messages in a short time in a RT game.
I was thinking of the message logs in CK2 and EU4. Out of curiosity, what Paradox games are turn based? I've only played pausable real time games from them.
 
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Great first post :) I agree with pretty much all of your list there. Its all stuff I see us working into the game over time for sure. I'v actually been curious why nobody had asked for control groups yet
There a lot of small problems people keep quiet about, because bigger problems like AI is in need of attention. As big problems are fixed, you will see small refinement problems all over the place.
 
I'v actually been curious why nobody had asked for control groups yet

Ahem...

Also why did PDX remove the ability to assign units to number keys?!? That is one of the biggest micro-reducers in not only all past PDX games, but strategy games in general. @podcat ?

I really miss the hotkeys from HoI2 and 3.

:p

Looking forward to getting them back. They are desperately needed, especially in a no-pause environment like MP.