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EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of July 2020

Good afternoon! I am once again eschewing the traditional Swedish summer vacation, this time because I’d prefer to wait until I can safely travel rather than taking a dull staycation in my Stockholm apartment. What that means for you lovely people is that you get summer content dev diaries! Let’s get right into it!

dd_indochina.png


Those of you who know me even slightly will be aware that I love all things South-East Asia (SEA). After 2.5 years on the project, I finally have the opportunity to create the SEA map rework of my dreams. Shown above is Mainland SEA. Burma/Myanmar is excluded from the map rework as I feel that the treatment I gave it during the development of Dharma still holds up. There will certainly be new content for nations in that region however, including what another dev fondly described as the “Shan mission stick” when we played MP this weekend.

The country setup has not been radically altered. The only new additions to the 1444 setup are the tribes inhabiting what is today the Central Highlands of Vietnam. I have, however, added many new provinces and increased the total development of the region significantly. According to the logs, the indo_china_region now contains 64 provinces with 542 total development. Note that these numbers, like all numbers presented in dev diaries, are not final. I’m especially satisfied with how Lan Na fits into its 5-province state, bordered on its west by impassable terrain. Speaking of impassable terrain, the Annamite Range now separates Vietnam from much of Laos, making Dai Viet a drastically more defensible nation.

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities. We’ll talk about various ways that this will be achieved another time, but one prerequisite for the goal is having nations to vassalize:


dd_releasables.png


Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.


dd_culture.png


I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.


dd_siam.png


Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!
 
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Thank you @neondt for this DD. It is amazingfor SEA players like us after a long time of waiting.

As a Vietnamese, I found something which is not correct so I would like to make some suggestions for this update to make the game better.

I- Provinces:

Under Le Dynasty in 1444, Dai Viet was divided into 13 provinces. In my opinion the game should reflect this organization so I suggest that Dai Viet map should be revised into 14 provinces as below:

1. Phụng Thiên or Thăng Long - capital of Dai Viet
2. Sơn Tây
3. Kinh Bắc
4. Sơn Nam
5. Hải Dương
6. An Bang (Nowadays Quang Ninh)
7. Thái Nguyên (or Ninh Sóc)
8. Lạng Sơn
9. Tuyên Quang
10. Hưng Hóa
11. Thanh Hóa (this province is large but dense-populated so it should be of high dev)
12. Nghệ An (this province is large but dense-populated so it should be of high dev)
13. Quảng Bình (in 1444 it was still included in Thuan Hoa, but the civil war between Trịnh clan and Nguyễn clan would break soon and it is the main battlefield).
14. Thuận Hóa (currently its name is Hue, which is incorrect in 1444).
15. Đà Nẵng was not in Dai Viet's hand until 1471 war so it should be ceded to Champa. When it was conquered by Dai Viet, it should be renamed Quảng Nam. There should be Dai Viet mission to get claim on Đà Nẵng and the whole Champa.

1594520617147.png


Due to geography:
- Province 1,2,3,4,5,6 belong to Red River Delta area.
- Province 7,8,9,10 belong to Mountainous Northern Vietnam area.
- Province 11,12,13,14 belong to Northern-Central Vietnam area.

II- Mission & Gameplay:

Since it got independence in 938 AD, Dai Viet was never in trouble with western neighbor (Lan Xang in 1444) thanks to its large population, advanced agriculture and army. Therefore, the Annamite Range will bring bear more defensible value to Lan Xang, not Dai Viet. Actually Dai Viet has attacked Lan Xang in 1479-1480 war, critically weaken Lan Xang and made Muang Phan its vassal state. However, currently Lan Xang is outpowered to Dai Viet, which is historically inaccurate.

The biggest threat to Dai Viet is neither Lan Xang nor Champa, but China in the North. Since Dai Viet was China territory in more than 1000 years, the Celestial Empire has many reasons to reconquer its land. Sadly the threat was no more since Mandate of Heaven update: Provided that Dai Viet pays annual tribute, he can do whatever he want and never gets attacked by Ming.

In history, the most significant things for Dai Viet in this period should be 1. civil war (Lê-Mạc dynasty war; Trịnh-Nguyễn clan war) 2. Nam Tiến (expand to the south) 3- Resistance to China (Ming, Qing). Therefore, I suggest below changes to Dai Viet gameplay:

1- Dai Viet has the mission to get permanent claim on Champa territory as its first stage of gameplay. Howver, I'm not in favour of moving Cham culture from Malay to Indochhina group as Cham people are Austronesian which is different in language and culture to Indochinese.
2- The Civil war would break easier (Dai Viet get a disaster that half of the country from Quảng Bình southwards would break free and become an independent nation). After becoming free, this nation has different ideas to expand faster. Then, these nations can re-unify Dai Viet after a decision or mission.
3- When finishing Champa, Dai Viet (or the nation breaking free from Dai Viet) has the mission to get permanent claim on Mekong Delta area. This area also needs to be reworked to be the second Vietnamese heartland. I borrowed the idea from @nexmaxx that this area should have 6 provinces. In 1444 this area was almost empty with very few Khmer population, thus it should be a blank (or very low dev) province that Khmer has permanent claim on. Then, Dai Viet can have them colonized / get more dev and culture converted through an event of Ming immigrants during Ming-Qing transition.

1594524014637.png


4- Dai Viet has a mission to conquer Guangdong&Guangxi provinces to re-form Nan Yue.
Actually Dai Viet mornarchy always considers Guangdong - Guangxi its former territory. Therefore, Dai Viet- Ming/Qing collision would be funny to play.

1594523250672.png


5- The gameplay should refect Dai Viet competition against Siam/Ayutthaya for hegemony in Indochina. There should be mission for Dai Viet to conquer or vassalize Lan Xang / Khmer and rivalry against Siam.
 
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Thank you @neondt for this DD. It is amazingfor SEA players like us after a long time of waiting.

As a Vietnamese, I found something which is not correct so I would like to make some suggestions for this update to make the game better.

I- Provinces:

Under Le Dynasty in 1444, Dai Viet was divided into 13 provinces. In my opinion the game should reflect this organization so I suggest that Dai Viet map should be revised into 14 provinces as below:

1. Phụng Thiên (currently Dong Kinh) - capital of Dai Viet
2. Sơn Tây
3. Kinh Bắc
4. Sơn Nam
5. Hải Dương
6. An Bang (Nowadays Quang Ninh)
7. Thái Nguyên (or Ninh Sóc)
8. Lạng Sơn
9. Tuyên Quang
10. Hưng Hóa
11. Thanh Hóa (this province is large but dense-populated so it should be of high dev)
12. Nghệ An (this province is large but dense-populated so it should be of high dev)
13. Quảng Bình (in 1444 it was still included in Thuan Hoa, but the civil war between Trịnh clan and Nguyễn clan would break soon and it is the main battlefield).
14. Thuận Hóa (currently its name is Hue, which is incorrect in 1444).
15. Đà Nẵng was not in Dai Viet's hand until 1471 war so it should be ceded to Champa. When it was conquered by Dai Viet, it should be renamed Quảng Nam. There should be Dai Viet mission to get claim on Đà Nẵng and the whole Champa.

View attachment 599240

Due to geography:
- Province 1,2,3,4,5,6 belong to Red River Delta area.
- Province 7,8,9,10 belong to Mountainous Northern Vietnam area.
- Province 11,12,13,14 belong to Northern-Central Vietnam area.

II- Mission & Gameplay:

Since it got independence in 938 AD, Dai Viet was never in trouble with western neighbor (Lan Xang in 1444) thanks to its large population, advanced agriculture and army. Therefore, the Annamite Range will bring bear more defensible value to Lan Xang, not Dai Viet. Actually Dai Viet has attacked Lan Xang in 1479-1480 war, critically weaken Lan Xang and made Muang Phan its vassal state. However, currently Lan Xang is outpowered to Dai Viet, which is historically inaccurate.

The biggest threat to Dai Viet is neither Lan Xang nor Champa, but China in the North. Since Dai Viet was China territory in more than 1000 years, the Celestial Empire has many reasons to reconquer its land. Sadly the threat was no more since Mandate of Heaven update: Provided that Dai Viet pays annual tribute, he can do whatever he want and never gets attacked by Ming.

In history, the most significant things for Dai Viet in this period should be 1. civil war (Lê-Mạc dynasty war; Trịnh-Nguyễn clan war) 2. Nam Tiến (expand to the south) 3- Resistance to China (Ming, Qing). Therefore, I suggest below changes to Dai Viet gameplay:

1- Has the mission to get permanent claim on Champa territory as its first stage of gameplay. Howver, I'm not in favour of moving Cham culture from Malay to Indochhina group as Cham people are Austronesian which is different in language and culture to Indochinese.
2- The Civil war broke more easily. (Dai Viet get a disaster that half of the country from Quảng Bình southwards would break free and become an independent nation). After becoming free, this nation has different ideas to expand faster. Then, these nations can re-unify Dai Viet after a decision or mission.
3- When finishing Champa, Dai Viet (or the nation breaking free from Dai Viet) has the mission to get permanent claim on Mekong Delta area. This area also needs to be reworked to be the second Vietnamese heartland. I borrowed the idea from @nexmaxx that this area should have 6 provinces. In 1444 this area was almost empty with very few Khmer population, thus it should be a blank (or very low dev) province that Khmer has permanent claim on. Then, Dai Viet can have them colonized / get more dev and culture converted through an event of Ming immigrants during Ming-Qing transition.

View attachment 599252

4- Ming/Qing have a mission to annex Dai Viet (they currently have it) and Dai Viet have a mission to conquer Guangdong&Guangxi provinces to re-form Nan Yue.
Actually Dai Viet mornarchy always considers Guangdong - Guangxi its former territory. Therefore, Dai Viet- Ming/Qing collision would be funny to play.

View attachment 599248

5- The gameplay should refect Dai Viet competition against Siam/Ayutthaya for hegemony in Indochina. There should be mission for Dai Viet to conquer or vassalize Lan Xang / Khmer and rivalry against Siam.

Wao, I didn't realize that Ha Tinh province was a part of Nghe An province, not until to 19th century. Great accuracy there, bro!

Even for the name Phụng Thiên for Đông Kinh is amazingly correct! Sadly after the Nguyễn Dynasty, somehow people have forgotten that name.
 
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It's really cool and I am very excited for that patch! it will bring a new flavour to this region which is currently boring. but the real question is- will it be in the future the Oceania update with aboriginal tribes and polynesians new religion, gov reforms, mission and etc.
 
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4- Dai Viet has a mission to conquer Guangdong&Guangxi provinces to re-form Nan Yue.
Actually Dai Viet mornarchy always considers Guangdong - Guangxi its former territory. Therefore, Dai Viet- Ming/Qing collision would be funny to play.

In history, Quang Trung (reigned 1788-1792), after unified Vietnam and defeated Qing's invasion, asked back the lands of Quangxi and QuangDong and was planning an invasion before he suddenly died. I think it will create a challenging achievement if Dai Viet or An Nam defeats unify Ming or Qing, takes back these lands and form Nam Yue.
 
Just a minor thing, but could you please shift the Miao culture from the chinese culture group to the Tibetan culture group?

"Historically, the term "Miao" had been applied inconsistently to a variety of non-Han peoples. The term re-appeared in the Ming dynasty (1368–1644), by which time it had taken on the connotation of "barbarian." Being a variation of Nanman, it was used to refer to the indigenous people in southern China who had not been assimilated into Han culture."

There were continuous Miao rebellions both under the Ming and the Qing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miao_people
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miao_rebellions_under_the_Ming_dynasty
 
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MY PRAYERS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED! PRAISE THE GOOD LADY OF LA VANG!

No, really, I've been asking for a good SEA overhaul since Mandate of Heaven.

Also, is this being done by the new folks over at PDX Tinto? They are taking over EUIV soon, right?
 
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MY PRAYERS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED! PRAISE THE GOOD LADY OF LA VANG!

No, really, I've been asking for a good SEA overhaul since Mandate of Heaven.

Also, is this being done by the new folks over at PDX Tinto? They are taking over EUIV soon, right?

Currently it is being done by me. Tinto comes later.
 
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Currently it is being done by me. Tinto comes later.
Where can we find the info/announcement on them? I'm still a bit confused.
 
In history, Quang Trung (reigned 1788-1792), after unified Vietnam and defeated Qing's invasion, asked back the lands of Quangxi and QuangDong and was planning an invasion before he suddenly died. I think it will create a challenging achievement if Dai Viet or An Nam defeats unify Ming or Qing, takes back these lands and form Nam Yue.
I don't think that is correct, considering after numerous civil wars Vietnam's economy and manpower is devastated. Quang Trung was a brilliant strategist, but also a realist. The Qing at the time was at its height under the rule of Qianlong Emperor, which saw the largest expansion to the Qing Empire while its economy was prosperous.
But still I think Dai Viet should have a mission to add permanent claims to Liangguang (Lưỡng Quảng) area, considering many Vietnamese dynasties considering the Yue dynasty was their predecessors.
 
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I'm wondering whether this will include some content for Malaysia and Indonesia as well. Hopeful that it will and thanks for your hard work!
Neondt ust posted that Dev Diary. Looks like they got even more love than Indochina.
 
Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.

Hi @neondt and other developers. If you're still looking to add releasable nations in Siam, this could be an option:
@neondt mentioned in the last dev diary that there is no great way to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer with releasable tags for the new update. With Khmer, I agree that there's not much you can do besides some sort of Khmer Krom tag in the Mekong delta or a north-south divide like during the Chenla period. For Ayutthaya though, you could look to their historical mandala system and the various muaeng for inspiration. Ayutthaya had royal domain surrounded by a few direct vassals and tributaries ruled by members of the royal family. Sukothai and Nakhon Si Thammarat/Ligor are already on the map, but two more vassals/releasable tags could be added based on the Phra Mahanakhon of the Ayutthaya Kingdom:
  1. Khorat/Nakhon Ratchasima (Si Thep and Khoran provinces). In 1444 this country should either be a releasable tag in eastern Ayutthaya or an Ayutthaya vassal. Historically, this region was conquered from the Khmer by Ayutthaya in 1431 and by 1444, during the reign of King Borommatrailokkanat, it had been elevated to the status of Phra Mahanakhon ruled by a Chao Praya as a vassal. The main administrative centre of the semi-autonomous state was the city of Phimai until 1674 (during the reign of King Narai the Great) when the city of Nakhon Ratchasima was founded. The name of the tag should probably be "Khorat" referring to both the geographical region and the new city after its foundation.
  2. Thanao/Tenasserim (in Tawai and Marit provinces). In 1444 this country should either be an independent, Mon tribal state or a releasable tag that starts under the control of Pegu (or perhaps split between Ayutthaya and Pegu). Historically, Tavoy and Mergui were tributaries of Pegu led by a chief named Imharihera until 1488 when the area was conquered by King Borommarachathirat III and made into a Phra Mahanakhon.

View attachment 599649

Image is taken from this paper: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.14318/hau3.3.033
Another example of Ayutthaya's administrative divisions: Maps of Thailand over time

I hope this suggestion is helpful!
 
I am also going to throw my words behind the idea of Champa remaining in a separate culture group from Vietnam and the Vietnamese mission tree having something related to culturally converting that land after conquering it. That could be buffs to Vietnam's culture conversion ability in those provinces, culture converting those provinces straight up as a mission reward, or perhaps a third option might be for there to be a Vietnamese culture group culture that doesn't exist at game start to represent a Champa culture that has been forcibly integrated to be more Vietnamese, and have a mission reward 'seed' this culture into the region in one or two provinces.

I don't know if it is possible, it might be something that the coding team would need to take a look at, but could there be some sort of culture conversion buff that only works when a specific culture is being converted to? For example, the provinces would cost 100% of the diplo cost and time if you tried to convert them to Vietnamese, but if you were trying to instead convert them into the possible Champa-Vietnamese merger culture, it is only 50% cost?
 
I am also going to throw my words behind the idea of Champa remaining in a separate culture group from Vietnam and the Vietnamese mission tree having something related to culturally converting that land after conquering it. That could be buffs to Vietnam's culture conversion ability in those provinces, culture converting those provinces straight up as a mission reward, or perhaps a third option might be for there to be a Vietnamese culture group culture that doesn't exist at game start to represent a Champa culture that has been forcibly integrated to be more Vietnamese, and have a mission reward 'seed' this culture into the region in one or two provinces.

I don't know if it is possible, it might be something that the coding team would need to take a look at, but could there be some sort of culture conversion buff that only works when a specific culture is being converted to? For example, the provinces would cost 100% of the diplo cost and time if you tried to convert them to Vietnamese, but if you were trying to instead convert them into the possible Champa-Vietnamese merger culture, it is only 50% cost?
Well, in history this wasn't the case - Vietnamese settlers slowly outnumbering the original Cham population, and during the last conquest of Champa, the Vietnamese literally outright genocided the Cham into a minority.
 
Well, in history this wasn't the case - Vietnamese settlers slowly outnumbering the original Cham population, and during the last conquest of Champa, the Vietnamese literally outright genocided the Cham into a minority.

I think your information was not correct. After the conquest in 1471, only northern half of Champa land was annexed into Dai Viet and became what were called Quảng Nam, Quảng Ngãi, Bình Định, Phú Yên now. The southern half of Champa continued to exist literally until the 19th century.

The integration of Champa was a long-run and bitter process for Dai Viet. Therefore, the matter can't be solved by a single slaughter. During this period, Cham population declined sharply due to many causes:

- Dai Viet's policy of migrating Cham noblemen, skilled craftmen, builders and women to Vietnamese core land in the north. Though these ones were later Vietnamized, there are still signs of Cham prisoners around Hanoi today.
- A lot of Cham people escaped during the Dai Vietan conquests, especially the siege of Vijaya in 1471. Many of them came to Cambodia. Notably, a Cham prince reached Aceh and founded an independent nation there.
- A large number of Cham people were assimilated to Vietnamese population and recognized themselves as Vietnamese.
- Many Cham people were killed during their revolts against Dai Viet suzerainty.
 
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Thank you @Imperium84 for a well-written post with many beautiful ideas. I agree with your post and would like to add that I believe the Cham and Khmer should instead belong to a common group and instead have Vietnamese in it's own grouping similar to how Miao currently is. My rationale here is the devs mention wanting to showcase how culture is not simply restricted to linguistic groupings which is incredibly true. We can see evidence of this for example in the stark difference between Acehnese and Cham's who although belong to the same language family (even the same sub-family) are drastically different culturally and even religiously. While language is a fundamental aspect of culture, religion, common influences, and continued contact play a far greater role (see Vietnamese and Han Chinese cultural similarities as opposed to Vietnamese-Cambodian). *I am not advocating for Vietnamese to be grouped with the Chinese culture group but rather distinct from Cham and Khmer.

Additionally, the inclusion of Da Nang into Champa makes sense though it should be renamed as either Simhapura reflecting the old Cham capital or Tralaun Svon which is a Cham capital referenced in Cham inscriptions found in modern Quang Nam province. This province should have some form of significance such as a possible mission/event wherein if the province is owned by Champa an event occurs spending some form of currency to "rebuild" or "restore" the holy site of My Son which historically served as a Cham holy site (Idk if this is already the case but the province should be hilly).

Expanding on other suggestions about the Southern Expansion under the Nguyen Lords, I agree that a mission should be given to the owners of central Vietnam (corresponding to the Nguyen Lord's realm) that provides claims on some Cham land with a progression that eventually annexes the entire country however this should only be given if the Nguyen win the civil war or proclaim independence from the Trinh as the two factions held different relations with the Chams. Furthermore, in the case of conquest, another mission seeking cultural conversion of the Cham lands should occure but not to increase the speed of culture conversions nor the cost but rather result in monarch points/gold/prestige/ etc. to Dai Viet.

Historically, the assimilation of the Cham under the Nguyen Lords was characterized by attempted annexations that were met with constant rebellion and unrest resulting in granting the Cham Lords nominal independence (tributary or vassal relationship not a march). We can see an example of this in the 17th century under Nguyen Phuc Chu who defeated a Cham uprising, attempted to station Nguyen troops but could not do so and instead appointed Po Saktiraydiputih (a Cham) to rule as a nominally independent Lord. This pattern would continue again at the end of the 19th century with the Cham king Po Phaok The working with the Vietnamese governor-general Le Van Duyet.
 
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None yet but I'd like something to flow into the Siam node to make it less terrible.

@neondt If you move the Lower Burma state to the Burma trade node, you could have a land trade route flowing from Burma (no longer an indland node) into the Siam node to simulate overland trade through the Three Pagodas Pass. Mountains on every other side of the Chao Phraya river basin basically limited all trade with Southern China, Vietnam, and the Malay states to the sea (which is already simulated with the Siam-Malacca route), but that one mainly west-to-east overland route could be capitalized upon to give the Siam node a much-needed boost! :)

This (slightly outdated) map can be used to visualize the suggestion: https://easyzoom.com/imageaccess/ec482e04c2b240d4969c14156bb6836f
 
@neondt If you move the Lower Burma state to the Burma trade node, you could have a land trade route flowing from Burma (no longer an indland node) into the Siam node to simulate overland trade through the Three Pagodas Pass. Mountains on every other side of the Chao Phraya river basin basically limited all trade with Southern China, Vietnam, and the Malay states to the sea (which is already simulated with the Siam-Malacca route), but that one mainly west-to-east overland route could be capitalized upon to give the Siam node a much-needed boost! :)

This (slightly outdated) map can be used to visualize the suggestion: https://easyzoom.com/imageaccess/ec482e04c2b240d4969c14156bb6836f

That would require the removal of the Malacca > Burma connection though, and I'm not sure that's something good.
 
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