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EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of July 2020

Good afternoon! I am once again eschewing the traditional Swedish summer vacation, this time because I’d prefer to wait until I can safely travel rather than taking a dull staycation in my Stockholm apartment. What that means for you lovely people is that you get summer content dev diaries! Let’s get right into it!

dd_indochina.png


Those of you who know me even slightly will be aware that I love all things South-East Asia (SEA). After 2.5 years on the project, I finally have the opportunity to create the SEA map rework of my dreams. Shown above is Mainland SEA. Burma/Myanmar is excluded from the map rework as I feel that the treatment I gave it during the development of Dharma still holds up. There will certainly be new content for nations in that region however, including what another dev fondly described as the “Shan mission stick” when we played MP this weekend.

The country setup has not been radically altered. The only new additions to the 1444 setup are the tribes inhabiting what is today the Central Highlands of Vietnam. I have, however, added many new provinces and increased the total development of the region significantly. According to the logs, the indo_china_region now contains 64 provinces with 542 total development. Note that these numbers, like all numbers presented in dev diaries, are not final. I’m especially satisfied with how Lan Na fits into its 5-province state, bordered on its west by impassable terrain. Speaking of impassable terrain, the Annamite Range now separates Vietnam from much of Laos, making Dai Viet a drastically more defensible nation.

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities. We’ll talk about various ways that this will be achieved another time, but one prerequisite for the goal is having nations to vassalize:


dd_releasables.png


Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.


dd_culture.png


I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.


dd_siam.png


Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!
 
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@neondt
Please please add both of this ranges:

This ranges separate (and did so historically) much of Cambodia from Thailand. There's a reason empires, ethnicities and ultimately countries in that area ended with the shape they are now and it's because moving and supplying armies through those mountainous jungle ranges was and still is incredibly difficult (to this day see Khmer Rouge holding out in the Cardamoms for example).

SE asia history is full of supporting vassals and claimants instead of rulin directly from accross ranges.

In fact if you look at satellite imagery you'll see that to this day it remains mostly virgin forests because of it's inaccessibility. Also Sankamphaeng literally means fortification as that range was for hundreds of years a naturally defensible border.

It has been a pet peeve of mine since the last SE asia rework to see those ranges excluded when they are such an important part of the area history and geography.
 
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Hey @neondt i have few questions regarding the new content.

1. I have read comments about Ming mission tree and i have a suggestion. Rather than creating unique mission tree for Ming why not creating Chinese generic mission tree that will be shared between Ming, Ming revolter tags, Mongols and Manchus? The reason why am i suggesting this for Mongols and Manchus is because i have noticed that they have acces to some generic mission tree and this way would make them unique.

2. Would you consider revorking Confuciansim? My suggestion here is to allow Confucian nation to culture convert thru harmonized religion. Again this is only me what do you think?

And last thanks for the Emperor, i'm new player to all of this. I'm realy having a blast in my current Jerusalem and Roman (Byzantium) play.
Mongols and manchu already have unique mission trees, you go qing for full unique. They were both trees as part of a free update so don't expect them again
 
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Some things I'd like to see for this update.

  1. Srivijaya
    1. Srivijaya, along with Majapahit, was one of the largest empires in Southeast Asian history; with its influence stretching all across Indochina and Maritime Southeast Asia, and even reaching Madagascar at one point. It was ultimately destroyed by Majapahit, but its successors remain in the East Indies region at the 1444 Start; these successors being Malacca, Ayuthayya, and Palembang. There should be something akin to a Reform Srivijaya decision that allows the player to play Srivijaya as a formable nation, distinct from Malaya. Srivijaya should require specifically Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula as cores, especially Palembang and Singapore; both of which were at different points of time, capitals of the Srivijayan Empire. It should not be formable by Majapahit, because that would be like Great Britain deciding to form Ireland. If it is not a formable nation, there should be at least some reference to its legacy, especially among the nations of Indochina, the Malay Peninsula, and Sumatra.
  2. Majapahit
    1. Majapahit was once a massive empire that dominated Southeast Asia. However, by the time of the 1444 Start, it was already in rapid decline. I'm not saying we should buff Majapahit, but rather the opposite. There should be no logical way that Majapahit in the 1444 Start should be able to reclaim its former empire. It should be very unstable, and not very well-liked by pretty much everyone around it with the slight exception of Sunda. It should not be well liked because most of the nations in the 1444 Start Maritime Southeast Asia were seceding from Majapahit, with the exception of Sunda which was never conquered by Majapahit.
  3. Bruneian Empire
    1. Brunei needs a bit more flavor for how big they got historically, and right now its pretty bland. IRL it rapidly expanded up till the Castillian War, which threw the Bruneian Empire into a slow decline. There should be a unique mission tree, and unique ideas that allow Brunei to rapidly expand to conquer Kutai, colonize Kalimantan, vassalize Sulu and Manila, colonize Zamboanga, etc. Also iirc, Sulu and Manila were pretty much its vassals irl; not just guaranteed independence. Brunei in particular force-vassalized Manila by 1500, while Sulu was historically close to Brunei way before that. I think Sulu should start out as a vassal of Brunei, and an event should fire that makes Manila a vassal of Brunei somewhere around 1500.
  4. Bangsamoro
    1. Bangsamoro, if not a formable or revolter nation, should at the very least be a separate culture from Filipino. Provinces with the Bangsamoro culture include Maguindanao, Lanao, Sulu, and Palawan. And honestly that's it. A lot of other people might include Zamboanga, Davao, Butuan, and Caraga; but those are all Lumad. Though the Lumads of Zamboanga, the Subanens, have begun to be assimilated by either Bangsamoro or Bisaya in recent times.
 
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Yes, in fact, such as setting a low mandate for Ming's start, disaster in beginning, etc. to weaken Ming, or further optimize the tributary system for China's complex diplomatic relations, and better mandate system, are all good ways to improve the Ming game experience.

And if you did this the effect on the AI might be catastrophic, and playing any country around Ming would become very different (and not necessarily better). Playing the northern hordes would become vastly easier. The current situation plays quite well, I can see why there is no rush to change it.
 
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Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!

Any chance of seeing some more unique idea sets and mission trees added to tags added in 1.30? Like illinois perhaps?
 
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Some things I'd like to see for this update.

  1. Srivijaya
    1. Srivijaya, along with Majapahit, was one of the largest empires in Southeast Asian history; with its influence stretching all across Indochina and Maritime Southeast Asia, and even reaching Madagascar at one point. It was ultimately destroyed by Majapahit, but its successors remain in the East Indies region at the 1444 Start; these successors being Malacca, Ayuthayya, and Palembang. There should be something akin to a Reform Srivijaya decision that allows the player to play Srivijaya as a formable nation, distinct from Malaya. Srivijaya should require specifically Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula as cores, especially Palembang and Singapore; both of which were at different points of time, capitals of the Srivijayan Empire. It should not be formable by Majapahit, because that would be like Great Britain deciding to form Ireland. If it is not a formable nation, there should be at least some reference to its legacy, especially among the nations of Indochina, the Malay Peninsula, and Sumatra.
  2. Majapahit
    1. Majapahit was once a massive empire that dominated Southeast Asia. However, by the time of the 1444 Start, it was already in rapid decline. I'm not saying we should buff Majapahit, but rather the opposite. There should be no logical way that Majapahit in the 1444 Start should be able to reclaim its former empire. It should be very unstable, and not very well-liked by pretty much everyone around it with the slight exception of Sunda. It should not be well liked because most of the nations in the 1444 Start Maritime Southeast Asia were seceding from Majapahit, with the exception of Sunda which was never conquered by Majapahit.
  3. Bruneian Empire
    1. Brunei needs a bit more flavor for how big they got historically, and right now its pretty bland. IRL it rapidly expanded up till the Castillian War, which threw the Bruneian Empire into a slow decline. There should be a unique mission tree, and unique ideas that allow Brunei to rapidly expand to conquer Kutai, colonize Kalimantan, vassalize Sulu and Manila, colonize Zamboanga, etc. Also iirc, Sulu and Manila were pretty much its vassals irl; not just guaranteed independence. Brunei in particular force-vassalized Manila by 1500, while Sulu was historically close to Brunei way before that. I think Sulu should start out as a vassal of Brunei, and an event should fire that makes Manila a vassal of Brunei somewhere around 1500.
  4. Bangsamoro
    1. Bangsamoro, if not a formable or revolter nation, should at the very least be a separate culture from Filipino. Provinces with the Bangsamoro culture include Maguindanao, Lanao, Sulu, and Palawan. And honestly that's it. A lot of other people might include Zamboanga, Davao, Butuan, and Caraga; but those are all Lumad. Though the Lumads of Zamboanga, the Subanens, have begun to be assimilated by either Bangsamoro or Bisaya in recent times.
Actually Sunda should be the one that hate Majapahit the most because of the battle of Bubat.
 
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So a lot of people bring Srivijaya, but I hope neondt do not bring Srvijaya (unless you are Malacca). Srivijaya is like Rome, it had been a long time since it existed or relevant. But unlike Rome, most people in the region already forgot that Srivijaya even existed. Srivijaya only obtain revival in fame after European historian discover it from ancient text. I can agree with Malacca, because Malacca's royalty was a direct descendant of Srivijaya's royalty. Let the ahistorical Malaya as Srivijaya replacement, I can at least pretend that it was an invention by people who want to unite Malays (though that still left the weird requirement to conquer Javanese, but that beside the point).

Reformable Majapahit, I think I can come in term with it, because well Majapahit still exist, and its successor do try to emulate it. Though Majapahit is more like "Ming", it was the successor of Singhasari, and when it collapsed it was replaced by Demak, and then Mataram. Just like Ming was the successor of Yuan and Qing was Ming's successor. You do not reform "Ming", you proclaim yourself "Celestial Emperor". And if case of Majapahit, you don't actually form "Majapahit", but you claim yourself as "Devaraja", or claim to get "Wahyu" after the Islamization of Java. But reformable Majapahit I think is acceptable in term of EU4.

I have some formable countries in my suggestion thread, so I won't blabbering too much here.
 
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I'm glad to see that developers are finally paying attention to SEA.

These are some suggestions based on history that devs may interest.

There should be a mountain range between the Red River and Black River that block between Siponchautai and Dai Viet. It was called Hoang Lien or Con Voi by Vietnamese
The Annamite range does not block the west of Nghe An, during the war of 1478 between Lan Xang and Dai Viet, part of Dai Viet troops attacked Muong Phuan and Lan Xang from the west of Nghe An.
And I think the names of the provinces and their locations are not correct. Sippongchautai was an autonomous territory that tributes to Laos, Dai Viet and Ming, and later to Qing. Sippongchautai in your picture is including Hung Hoa. The southern part of Sipongchautai in the picture is in fact the location of Hung Hoa, and the Hung Hoa in the picture should be Tuyen Quang.
Around the mid-1300s, a small state that the Vietnamese called Nguu Hong existed on Hung Hoa land, this state was conquered by the Tran dynasty but was not annexed completely, this was another autonomous territory.
Muong Phuan was also an autonomous territory that paid tribute to both Dai Viet and Lan Xang. Some historian consider it to be a vasal of Lan Xang. When Dai Viet tried to annex Muong Phuan, a chieftain of Muong Phuan rebelled, Lan Xang assisted the rebellion and eventually led to the Dai Viet - Lan Xang War in 1478. Laos called it the White Elephant War, but it actually no white elephant, it was a war for Muang Phuan lands.
Hà Tĩnh at that time was a part of Nghệ An
Thanh Hoa at the time included the northern part of Xiengkhoang (modern Huaphanh), the French gave the land to Laos in the late 1800s.
Cao Bang was once a part of Thai Nguyen. After the defeat of the Mac dynasty, Mac occupied Cao Bang and created a small state here. Mac was guaranteed by Minh for along time and in 1677 was annexed by Trinh. There was also a small state in Tuyen Quang founded by Bau lords, in 1689 it was also annexed by Trinh.
Hue and Da Nang were Thuan Hoa. Amaravati and Vijaya of Champa, after being conquered, became Quang Nam. The name Quang Ninh did not exist at the time, it was called An Bang. Tonkin and Dong Kinh were the same, the Vietnamese called it Dong Kinh and the Japanese trader pronounced Tonkin. Its official name was Dang Ngoai. Annam was officially called Dang Trong, and the foreigner called it Cocchinchine or Canglan (Quang Nam). Both Tonkin and Annam were under the Le Dynasty, they were quite similar to Japanese daimyo
This is a map from 1838 that clearly shows the territories of Dang Trong, Dang Ngoai, Champa and Cocchinchine:
Should Muang Phuan begin as a playable nation in 1444.
Of course, being a Dai Viet vassal?
Would the rest of the proposed new countries be playable in 1444?
Is there a chance that you will sketch on the current map the locations of these new countries ?
 
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  1. Majapahit
    1. Majapahit was once a massive empire that dominated Southeast Asia. However, by the time of the 1444 Start, it was already in rapid decline. I'm not saying we should buff Majapahit, but rather the opposite. There should be no logical way that Majapahit in the 1444 Start should be able to reclaim its former empire. It should be very unstable, and not very well-liked by pretty much everyone around it with the slight exception of Sunda. It should not be well liked because most of the nations in the 1444 Start Maritime Southeast Asia were seceding from Majapahit, with the exception of Sunda which was never conquered by Majapahit.
Majapahit was actually trying to reclaim their past glory at this time period. They were sending expedition to Sumatra, trying to control the Malacca Strait. Other countries did not "seceding" from Majapahit, but more like not paying tribute to Majapahit because the rising power at the time was Malacca. They shouldn't have bad malus toward Majapahit. Majapahit demise in 1500 was actually due to nobility on coastal area in Java (like Demak, Surabaya, etc.) many of them were muslim, were gaining power over the nobility in hinterland (like Daha and Blambangan) which led to Civil War and actual secession from Majapahit. So either these future countries are vassal of Majapahit with huge liberty desire or Majapahit has abnormally powerful Nobility Estate.

Sunda should absolutely hate Majapahit. They were (and are) the Scottish to Majapahit's English. They should be historic rival.
 
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So a lot of people bring Srivijaya, but I hope neondt do not bring Srvijaya (unless you are Malacca). Srivijaya is like Rome, it had been a long time since it existed or relevant. But unlike Rome, most people in the region already forgot that Srivijaya even existed. Srivijaya only obtain revival in fame after European historian discover it from ancient text. I can agree with Malacca, because Malacca's royalty was a direct descendant of Srivijaya's royalty. Let the ahistorical Malaya as Srivijaya replacement, I can at least pretend that it was an invention by people who want to unite Malays (though that still left the weird requirement to conquer Javanese, but that beside the point).

Reformable Majapahit, I think I can come in term with it, because well Majapahit still exist, and its successor do try to emulate it. Though Majapahit is more like "Ming", it was the successor of Singhasari, and when it collapsed it was replaced by Demak, and then Mataram. Just like Ming was the successor of Yuan and Qing was Ming's successor. You do not reform "Ming", you proclaim yourself "Celestial Emperor". And if case of Majapahit, you don't actually form "Majapahit", but you claim yourself as "Devaraja", or claim to get "Wahyu" after the Islamization of Java. But reformable Majapahit I think is acceptable in term of EU4.

I have some formable countries in my suggestion thread, so I won't blabbering too much here.
Srivijaya was forgotten later on, in the 1444 start, it was still very much something the countries in the area tried to emulate. Unfortunately much of the stories of Srivijaya were passed down orally, and most of the documented accounts were from Chinese envoys, but it was still very much remembered in 1444
 
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I do recognize that there was a historical rivalry between Sunda and Majapahit, especially following a certain incident with Gajah Mada. However, I think that there should be a unique mission for Majapahit to mend relations with Sunda and engage in royal marriage.

Moreover, Majapahit trying to reclaim glory does not negate that it was a former empire in decline at the time. It should be unstable, and it should be naturally becoming increasingly irrelevant until its collapse unless the player themself takes the wheel and restores Majapahit's former glory.
 
What is that horrid culture map?
Cham should be Malay, no questions asked. Those peoples are not only ethnically Malay but culturally and politically they were more connected to the Malay world. I understand culture groups now don't reflect language, but that doesn't excuse moving Cham. They were routinely attacked by the Vietnamese and had genocide committed against them specifically because they were distinctly not Viertnamese.
Also I have no idea how Zhuang made it into the Mon-Khmer group. Honestly this is just hilarious. I like the map tho.
 
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RIP dai viet
i'm not familiar with that part of the world history , but new additions are always nice to have
 
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@neondt
I think you should also consider adding Tai Federation to the game.

I also recommend reading the
@AirikrStrife thread which of course mentions the Tai Federation.

On Vietnamese Wikipedia, at the very bottom of the page is a list of rulers.
Source of information in Vietnamese
 
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Speaking about the development of the China superregion, wouldn't it be possible to double the starting develoment, but then give the EoC a starting +50 min autonomy that could be reduced in steps of -10 by each celestial reform? That way Ming doesn't start out as more op than it is now, but gives the player a substantial boon if they can complete all 5 reforms.

Very simple and acute, looks like to be easy to achieve.
 
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Good afternoon! I am once again eschewing the traditional Swedish summer vacation, this time because I’d prefer to wait until I can safely travel rather than taking a dull staycation in my Stockholm apartment. What that means for you lovely people is that you get summer content dev diaries! Let’s get right into it!

View attachment 597891

Those of you who know me even slightly will be aware that I love all things South-East Asia (SEA). After 2.5 years on the project, I finally have the opportunity to create the SEA map rework of my dreams. Shown above is Mainland SEA. Burma/Myanmar is excluded from the map rework as I feel that the treatment I gave it during the development of Dharma still holds up. There will certainly be new content for nations in that region however, including what another dev fondly described as the “Shan mission stick” when we played MP this weekend.

The country setup has not been radically altered. The only new additions to the 1444 setup are the tribes inhabiting what is today the Central Highlands of Vietnam. I have, however, added many new provinces and increased the total development of the region significantly. According to the logs, the indo_china_region now contains 64 provinces with 542 total development. Note that these numbers, like all numbers presented in dev diaries, are not final. I’m especially satisfied with how Lan Na fits into its 5-province state, bordered on its west by impassable terrain. Speaking of impassable terrain, the Annamite Range now separates Vietnam from much of Laos, making Dai Viet a drastically more defensible nation.

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities. We’ll talk about various ways that this will be achieved another time, but one prerequisite for the goal is having nations to vassalize:


View attachment 597892

Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.


View attachment 597893

I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.


View attachment 597894

Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!


I think the culture group should be called tai instead. And also other tai cultures should be added to south china like dai for example.


And also Lao and Shan culture being able to form siam sounds weird.
 
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Meanwhile SSA and NA starts...

SEA has some unique mission trees and the mandate of heaven as an endgame.

SEA has one country with unique missions and that is taungu. And Ming is nearby, but I wouldn't consider it to be part of sea.

Sure America is boring, but a main part of that is the lack of countries to interact with. That can't be easily changed.
 
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I'm looking forward to the various features that get added to the game and will buy this expansion for those; but, different strokes for different folks; not an area of the world that I'm the most interested in. My preference would be for alternate history events and maybe even flags/nations for those alternate history events which were plausible in the early going (IE 1400s) as, if they did play out, there would be hundreds of years of impact. For example: a fully fleshed out islamic spain.

the main driving force behind colonization was the fact that the ottomans and golden horse formed a muslim "block" that "stopped" trade "from the silk road" with "western europe". I'm super duper over generalizing, of course, but, the point remains that an islamic spain would not be the driving force for striking out west. Instead, that drive to colonize would fall to the next largest western european nation, IE France, or England, or even places like Norway. Hence an islamic spain alternate history would include not just events for spain, but events for France, etc, to make France much more 'colonial' in outlook.

Consider another example; an english win in the 100 years war, and thus, an english France. What does this mean? It changes a lot in terms of French relations with the HRE. Thus we end up with a ton of new HRE events due to this.

TLDR:
I'm buying this expansion
this part of the world aint my cup of tea, thus
I hope the next dlc focuses on 3rd country events stemming from alternate histories
 
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Neondt has stated that China was out of scope. Please move the discussion about changes in China in another thread... possibly making a thread in the Suggestions subforum, tagging neondt.
 
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