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EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of July 2020

Good afternoon! I am once again eschewing the traditional Swedish summer vacation, this time because I’d prefer to wait until I can safely travel rather than taking a dull staycation in my Stockholm apartment. What that means for you lovely people is that you get summer content dev diaries! Let’s get right into it!

dd_indochina.png


Those of you who know me even slightly will be aware that I love all things South-East Asia (SEA). After 2.5 years on the project, I finally have the opportunity to create the SEA map rework of my dreams. Shown above is Mainland SEA. Burma/Myanmar is excluded from the map rework as I feel that the treatment I gave it during the development of Dharma still holds up. There will certainly be new content for nations in that region however, including what another dev fondly described as the “Shan mission stick” when we played MP this weekend.

The country setup has not been radically altered. The only new additions to the 1444 setup are the tribes inhabiting what is today the Central Highlands of Vietnam. I have, however, added many new provinces and increased the total development of the region significantly. According to the logs, the indo_china_region now contains 64 provinces with 542 total development. Note that these numbers, like all numbers presented in dev diaries, are not final. I’m especially satisfied with how Lan Na fits into its 5-province state, bordered on its west by impassable terrain. Speaking of impassable terrain, the Annamite Range now separates Vietnam from much of Laos, making Dai Viet a drastically more defensible nation.

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities. We’ll talk about various ways that this will be achieved another time, but one prerequisite for the goal is having nations to vassalize:


dd_releasables.png


Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.


dd_culture.png


I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.


dd_siam.png


Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!
 
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TOO LITTLE DEV IN CHINA COMPARED WITH INDIA+ STRONG MISSION TREES ATTACKING CHINA AROUND CHINA + MANDATE REFORMS GREATLY
POSSIBILE CAUSING MINGPLOSION QUICKLY + NOT EASY RECOVERED REUNION OF CHINA + TOO TINY MISSION TREE OF CHINESE STATES + HIMALAYAS NOT BLOCKING INDIA INTO CHINA = ?

please answer this question, or answer previous question, OTHERWISE this is the last time I answered you.
India is a very diverse region, China starts united under Ming, so basically giving China dev is giving Ming dev which is not feasible. Mission trees attacking China are fun because they can ressemble the ambitions of an expansionist king that wanted the Celestial Throne for themselves. The Celestial Reforms are fine, as they are permanent and give nice bonuses which are complementary. I agree that China should reunite more easily, I said that in previous answers. Chinese revolt states should be more playable and unique missions could be a great idea, rn the only way to play Shun is by releasing them as a vassal which is meh. Finally, I think that Indian states that have enough power to unite the continent and then focus on invading china, should be able to do it. I don't understand that part either tbh
 
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India is a very diverse region, China starts united under Ming, so basically giving China dev is giving Ming dev which is not feasible. Mission trees attacking China are fun because they can ressemble the ambitions of an expansionist king that wanted the Celestial Throne for themselves. The Celestial Reforms are fine, as they are permanent and give nice bonuses which are complementary. I agree that China should reunite more easily, I said that in previous answers. Chinese revolt states should be more playable and unique missions could be a great idea, rn the only way to play Shun is by releasing them as a vassal which is meh. Finally, I think that Indian states that have enough power to unite the continent and then focus on invading china, should be able to do it. I don't understand that part either tbh

I only hope you could play Ming, then if you could never acquire the recognition "The Celestial Reforms are fine", these reforms can ruin AI MIng with the possibility of 80-90%, especially you could not become a revolution country by your own when you are the Chinese emperor, don't say "The Celestial Reforms are fine" more, please.

so basically giving China dev is giving Ming dev which is not feasible.
This is not the reason why not giving more DEVs that China (and India) they deserve, give some debuffs can be a solution to prevent Ming AI from stronger, by the way also Ming is too weaker than it in history.

then focus on invading china
If ok, you could just try to climb over from Himalayas to Sichuan, The tibet ,also like the Sinkiang, is not a good logistics base to attack China indeed, the better way to invade China is from sea or from Vietnam, so attacking China should be harder than just annex tibet or sinkiang.

Chinese revolt states should be more playable
maybe an ahistorical scanerio supplied by EU4 can be a good way.
 
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I mean, that's the point, so Ming will die. They should not survive most of the time because they actually collapsed. In the case they survived they are still one of the world's strongest anyway. I don't understand why you want to buff Ming, it will require a big overhaul to make sure that Ming won't be OP to do that. Well, that is if I understand you correctly, because your english are starting to become more incomprehensible.

I would never answer you if you don't reply my questions.

I mean, that's the point, so Ming will die. They should not survive most of the time because they actually collapsed.
So, the Byzantine deserves NO MISSION TREES? arguments are diguisements, you like Mingplosion so you look for reasons to make Mingplosion happen quickly.

the case they survived they are still one of the world's strongest anyway.
You think too highly of just 1100 developments. Ottoman exceeds it in 16th century easily.

dont kink me from now, otherwise I would speak out how Majapahit admitted its dissolution.
 
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You think too highly of just 1100 developments. Ottoman exceeds it in 16th century easily.
So, there's a general problem with representing China in EU4's game mechanics.

The devs have tried a variety of different solutions, and in the end all of them have had serious problems.
 
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I would never answer you if you don't reply my questions.

I mean, that's the point, so Ming will die. They should not survive most of the time because they actually collapsed.
So, the Byzantine deserves NO MISSION TREES? arguments are diguisements, you like Mingplosion so you look for reasons to make Mingplosion happen quickly.

the case they survived they are still one of the world's strongest anyway.
You think too highly of just 1100 developments. Ottoman exceeds it in 16th century easily.

dont kink me from now, otherwise I would speak out how Majapahit admitted its dissolution.
I'm pretty sure my stance is clear for some time already, that I am a Manchu and Qing fan. So if it will threaten Qing forming, I would not support a mission tree for Ming.
 
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I can't understand what the upstairs is saying.

Many of you want Qing to beat Ming, which is understandable. Many people want the process in the game to be consistent with history. (Although Qing's conquest of Ming is very evil, comparable to the Nazis, it seems to be a virus in the eyes of many Chinese people, polluting the entire Chinese culture, but since some of you are fans of the Qing Dynasty, I will not mention justice) . What I want to say is that the performance of AI in the game has nothing to do with the content of the tag.

For example, the final reform of the Austrian Empire is very strong, but AI often keeps the reform at level 2 or level 3 in the game. It does not affect human players. Austrian players will still be happy in the game. Yes,QING is often difficult to form in games, but the game experience of MING players is boring.It can make Austria a good player experience, but the AI performance is not too strong, why can't Ming?

You can let the AI's Qing exceed the chance to form (or make Ming more likely to die), I also support this, but you can't let Ming's human players feel that Ming is boring.MING also has fans, and they have the right to make their gaming experience better when using MING.

It's good that Ming won't get a mission tree, because mission tree makes the nation stronger. There's a reason why in MP most people ban Ming from being played by a player. They are a 1000 development monster right from the start of the game. And historically they never really expanded outside of China. I fear for what might happen if Ming were to be given mission tree. Also I'm a big Manchu and Qing fan, Ming should be be a piece of meat ready to be ripped by Manchu, like they historically did due to corruption and them being complacent.

The only times I've seen Ming survive is because their tributaries unsiege rebel provinces. This was addressed by a dev long ago (I can't remember who or where, maybe a Manchu dev diary, but it was there) and he said that it should not happen, or that it was gonna get taken into consideration.


I agree with you, Ming should be the Manchu food, or if they don't form then the revolt states food to unite China. However, a player Ming should not feel like it.

In addition, I think what you said is very bad. Why do you deprive MING players of the chance to get the mission tree? There are also many fans of MING players. Every tag should have a chance to become stronger, even AI.
 
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I can't understand what the upstairs is saying.

Many of you want Qing to beat Ming, which is understandable. Many people want the process in the game to be consistent with history. (Although Qing's conquest of Ming is very evil, comparable to the Nazis, it seems to be a virus in the eyes of many Chinese people, polluting the entire Chinese culture, but since some of you are fans of the Qing Dynasty, I will not mention justice) . What I want to say is that the performance of AI in the game has nothing to do with the content of the tag.

For example, the final reform of the Austrian Empire is very strong, but AI often keeps the reform at level 2 or level 3 in the game. It does not affect human players. Austrian players will still be happy in the game. Yes,QING is often difficult to form in games, but the game experience of MING players is boring.It can make Austria a good player experience, but the AI performance is not too strong, why can't Ming?

You can let the AI's Qing exceed the chance to form (or make Ming more likely to die), I also support this, but you can't let Ming's human players feel that Ming is boring.MING also has fans, and they have the right to make their gaming experience better when using MING.





In addition, I think what you said is very bad. Why do you deprive MING players of the chance to get the mission tree? There are also many fans of MING players. Every tag should have a chance to become stronger, even AI.
Because you already start with the strongest nation at the start of the game. Gonna have to be very careful if you want to add a mission tree to Ming.

I don't even know why you're bringing up the evil of Qing conquest of China though. As a history enthusiast I know well about that, I just love Manchu and Qing because they're fun to play and are a unicorn due to them not forming a lot of the times. It's just a game.
 
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India is a very diverse region, China starts united under Ming, so basically giving China dev is giving Ming dev which is not feasible. Mission trees attacking China are fun because they can ressemble the ambitions of an expansionist king that wanted the Celestial Throne for themselves. The Celestial Reforms are fine, as they are permanent and give nice bonuses which are complementary. I agree that China should reunite more easily, I said that in previous answers. Chinese revolt states should be more playable and unique missions could be a great idea, rn the only way to play Shun is by releasing them as a vassal which is meh. Finally, I think that Indian states that have enough power to unite the continent and then focus on invading china, should be able to do it. I don't understand that part either tbh
The current degree of development in China is abnormal. This is the most basic fact. There are many ways you can weaken Ming, forcefully reducing development is very boring. If you play seriously, you will also find that the development will not bring much improvement to Ming. The collapse of AI's Ming in most games is often due to the disaster and events of low mandate.
Even the increase in development will weaken Ming. With high development, the rebels will also increase, and AI often cannot handle these.
 
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Because you already start with the strongest nation at the start of the game. Gonna have to be very careful if you want to add a mission tree to Ming.

I don't even know why you're bringing up the evil of Qing conquest of China though. As a history enthusiast I know well about that, I just love Manchu and Qing because they're fun to play and are a unicorn due to them not forming a lot of the times. It's just a game.
Yes, "be very careful", but there should be, a relatively major country like Ming should have a mission tree. Again, the human players of Qing can get a better game experience in the game, but Ming players can’t, and Ming’s game content is empty and boring, so it is necessary to add some. I think you should work hard for the emergence of AI QING, rather than prevent Ming from getting more content.
Yes, this is just a game. It doesn’t make much sense to mention the controversy between Ming and Qing. We only talk about games.
 
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Yes, this is just a game. It doesn’t make much sense to mention the controversy between Ming and Qing. We only talk about games.
Yes, because no one mentions the evil japan and germany committed during WWII everytime someone plays them in hoi4. It's just video game about something that happened a long time ago. People already know what happened anyway.
 
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Fixing code bugs is not what Content Designers do. I appreciate that there's not a strong public understanding of the different roles at Paradox but "why aren't you fixing X bug or changing Y mechanic" isn't a useful thing to say in content-focused dev diaries.
So... Why aren't you fixing Z mission?
 
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Sounds awesome! I've wanted a south east Asia update for awhile now. Probably the most fun game I've played of EU4 was as Malacca/Malaya, so I'm definitely looking forward to playing in the region again with some new content too!
 
but the game experience of MING players is boring.It can make Austria a good player experience, but the AI performance is not too strong, why can't Ming?
Yeah, to me at least playing as Ming is boring because it's far too easy, missions aren't going to change that.

Don't really see why anybody would be a fan of playing as Ming. I tried it once, and it was fun once, but being that powerful from the start just isn't fun multiple times. Personally I think that if you want to play as a Chinese nation with proper missions and actually have fun then mission trees for the releasable Chinese countries (Wu etc.) should take priority over Ming.
 
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This update was a surprise to be sure but a welcome one for us Southeast Asians.

I'm hoping that the updates covering Malaysia and Indonesia will involve Srivijaya and Majapahit, which were the two greatest empires in the history of Maritime Southeast Asia. There's little chance of it ever happening, but I also hope Bangsamoro(Sulu, Maguindanao, and Lanao) gets its own culture separate from Filipino. Because culturally we are far from being Filipino, and closer to Brunei than the Philippines.
 
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Yeah, to me at least playing as Ming is boring because it's far too easy, missions aren't going to change that.

Don't really see why anybody would be a fan of playing as Ming. I tried it once, and it was fun once, but being that powerful from the start just isn't fun multiple times. Personally I think that if you want to play as a Chinese nation with proper missions and actually have fun then mission trees for the releasable Chinese countries (Wu etc.) should take priority over Ming.
Just feelings ~ pure interest in the Ming dynasty, not just from the perspective of gameplay. For example, if you choose your favorite star in a ball game, even if they are strong or even destroy the balance, I will still choose them. In fact, Ming also has many fans in China(As well as other dynasty).
And to be honest, Ming was actually not strong in 1444, and the palace was controlled by the stupid monarch and the villain, even enough to give a disaster in the opening. At that time, Ming's diplomacy was also not optimistic. It should have been a very challenging era. Therefore, I regret that the game cannot properly simulate that history.
 
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Just feelings ~ pure interest in the Ming dynasty, not just from the perspective of gameplay. For example, if you choose your favorite star in a ball game, even if they are strong or even destroy the balance, I will still choose them. In fact, Ming also has many fans in China(As well as other dynasty).
And to be honest, Ming was actually not strong in 1444, and the palace was controlled by the stupid monarch and the villain, even enough to give a disaster in the opening. At that time, Ming's diplomacy was also not optimistic. It should have been a very challenging era. Therefore, I regret that the game cannot properly simulate that history.

I think the problem is partly balancing for AI versus player. Weakening Ming initially and allowing the player to play through interesting missions to strengthen them would be great. But it would have to be somewhat challenging for the player but doable for the AI to avoid Ming being a pushover. That strikes me as a tricky thing to solve.
 
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Speaking about the development of the China superregion, wouldn't it be possible to double the starting develoment, but then give the EoC a starting +50 min autonomy that could be reduced in steps of -10 by each celestial reform? That way Ming doesn't start out as more op than it is now, but gives the player a substantial boon if they can complete all 5 reforms.
 
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Good afternoon! I am once again eschewing the traditional Swedish summer vacation, this time because I’d prefer to wait until I can safely travel rather than taking a dull staycation in my Stockholm apartment. What that means for you lovely people is that you get summer content dev diaries! Let’s get right into it!

View attachment 597891

Those of you who know me even slightly will be aware that I love all things South-East Asia (SEA). After 2.5 years on the project, I finally have the opportunity to create the SEA map rework of my dreams. Shown above is Mainland SEA. Burma/Myanmar is excluded from the map rework as I feel that the treatment I gave it during the development of Dharma still holds up. There will certainly be new content for nations in that region however, including what another dev fondly described as the “Shan mission stick” when we played MP this weekend.

The country setup has not been radically altered. The only new additions to the 1444 setup are the tribes inhabiting what is today the Central Highlands of Vietnam. I have, however, added many new provinces and increased the total development of the region significantly. According to the logs, the indo_china_region now contains 64 provinces with 542 total development. Note that these numbers, like all numbers presented in dev diaries, are not final. I’m especially satisfied with how Lan Na fits into its 5-province state, bordered on its west by impassable terrain. Speaking of impassable terrain, the Annamite Range now separates Vietnam from much of Laos, making Dai Viet a drastically more defensible nation.

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities. We’ll talk about various ways that this will be achieved another time, but one prerequisite for the goal is having nations to vassalize:


View attachment 597892

Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.


View attachment 597893

I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.


View attachment 597894

Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!
 
I think the problem is partly balancing for AI versus player. Weakening Ming initially and allowing the player to play through interesting missions to strengthen them would be great. But it would have to be somewhat challenging for the player but doable for the AI to avoid Ming being a pushover. That strikes me as a tricky thing to solve.
Yes, in fact, such as setting a low mandate for Ming's start, disaster in beginning, etc. to weaken Ming, or further optimize the tributary system for China's complex diplomatic relations, and better mandate system, are all good ways to improve the Ming game experience. In 1444, Ming and Oirat’s Tumu Crisis also had a lot of things to dig out. The existing event chain was basically influenced from the perspective of the Oirat, completely ignoring Ming's final victory and the subsequent birth of Yu Qian, one of the most famous loyal officials in Chinese history. in fact, Ming still has a lot to dig.
 
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