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CK3 Dev Diary #18 - Men-at-Arms, Mercenaries and CBs

Hello everyone, and welcome back!

This week we’ll be talking about a lot of additional details surrounding warfare. Just a few bits and pieces that have changed since CK2.

Casus Belli
One thing that is as it ever was, however, is that you need a Casus Belli to go to war, and that CB determines what happens when the war is won (or lost!). The most common ones are for pressing claims, as you’re familiar with from CK2. In different situations there will be a different options, of course, and some are even unlocked in special ways, such as the ones unlocked by perks, as shown off in the Diplomacy Lifestyle dev diary.
Declare war view.PNG


War Declaration Cost
One thing that has changed a little is the fact that different CBs come with different “declaration costs” attached to them. This is usually Prestige or Piety, depending on whether you are starting a war against a fellow believer or someone from another faith. On the other hand, we don’t want to keep you from taking advantage of a great opportunity just because you’re missing 10 Prestige at a crucial moment, so the costs are optional, in a sense.

You can declare a war without paying its cost, at which point you’ll instead pay something bigger, such as a Level of Fame or Devotion.

Levels of Fame/Devotion brings their own benefits, so ideally you want to avoid this, but it’s not as big a problem as - say - truce breaking. It’s not going to cripple your play, just set you back a little bit in exchange for getting to raise your armies and take some new titles while your enemy is weak. This is also one of the ways that Piety and Prestige gain has become more valuable than it was in CK2. You want to use it for more stuff, and it’s always useful to have lying around!

Men-at-Arms
We have talked about armies before, where we talked about the difference between your levies and your Men-at-Arms. Your levies are your unwashed masses, indistinguishable peasants more than willing to die for the few measly pieces of gold you throw their way. Men-at-Arms, on the other hand, are more specialist troops, and the component that gives you more control over precisely how you win your wars. They are in many ways your elite troops, ready to march through mountains and marshes for you.
MaA view.PNG


You have a maximum number of Men-at-Arms regiment slots for your army, and in addition they have an upkeep cost. It’s small when they’re unraised, but the moment you have them stand up to go to war, they’ll demand a lot more pay!

Even though you can max out your MaA slots, there are other ways you can expand your army. Each MaA regiment can be increased a set number of times, to field even more of your deadly warriors. This will naturally increase their maintenance cost as well (both raised and unraised) so think twice before hiring twice as many soldiers!

There are many different types of MaA regiments, and what their type is determines a number of things, such as what terrain they are good at fighting in, and what kind of MaA Regiments they are good at countering, or get countered by. Over time, you may also be able to acquire new types of MaA Regiments. This means that the bulk of armies are likely to be quite different if you start in 867 compared to when you reach the end of the game.
Create MaA view.PNG


MaAs also include siege engines, which is one of the easiest way of speeding up your land grabs. However, siege weapons are almost useless in regular combat, and taking them uses up one of your MaA slots, so it’s a decision that has to be carefully thought through.
MaA siege engine.PNG


In addition to a standard slate of MaA types, different cultures gain access to different unique MaAs. These will vary greatly across the world, but are generally specialised in the conditions of warfare that’s typical for the culture in question.
Camel Riders.PNG


You will also be able to look at battle reports to get an indication of what kind of impact specific types of MaAs have on your battles. This can let you figure out whether your strategies are paying off, or whether it’s finally time to get some Pikemen to counter the Light Cavalry that your rival is always fielding.

So to sum it all up, Men-at-Arms are great for countering specific troop types, adjusting to specific types of terrain, and directly bolstering the number of soldiers in your army! Sometimes, strategising and countering isn’t enough, however, and that’s where Mercenaries come in!

Mercenaries
Mercenaries are familiar to any CK2 player, of course, but they have changed a little now.

First of all, you no longer pay monthly maintenance for them. Instead you pay their cost for three years up front, and then they’re yours for that time to use as you see fit. They’ll stay with you through thick and thin (although mostly the thick of battle).
Mercenary company screenshot 3.PNG


Once the three years are almost up, you’ll receive an alert warning you that the Mercenaries are about to pack up and get on their way! You’ll then have the opportunity to pay them for another three years of service. This also means that they aren't going to betray you the second you go into debt, which I know will sadden a lot of you, but this new system makes it a lot easier to keep track of what you have and don't have during war.

So Mercenaries are an expensive way of doing warfare, but sometimes it’s the only way you’ll survive. However, in order to find a Mercenary Company that fits you in both size and shape, we have a new system for generating them to make sure there's always a wide range to choose from.
Mercenary Hire view 2.PNG


Each culture generates between one and three Mercenary companies depending on the number of counties of that culture, with each additional company being bigger and more expensive than the previous one. They will also pick a county of their culture to keep as their headquarters, and will be available to be hired by anyone within a certain range of that county.

With each culture generating Mercenaries, their names and coats of arms are either picked from a generated list of names specific to their culture so that you can get historical or particularly flavourful companies in there.

On top of everything else, Mercenary companies come with one or more specific Men-at-Arms types, which means that you may want to consider not only which company is the biggest one you can afford, but which is the best suited for the war you’re about to fight.

This should all offer you a lot of varied strategies for how you go about your wars. Is it worth saving up for the CB cost or mercenary-Gold ahead of time? What Men-at-Arms should you be using against your ancestral enemies? Who would win in a fight between the the White Company and the Company of the Hat??

You’ll just have to wait until release to see...
 
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Right! I knew I was missing something.
In CK2 combat was exponential to the numbers, 100 vs 1000 with all 1000 being able to deal damage to the 100 at the same time and you know how it is going to play out. CK3 atleast could atleast allow the 100 to deal some damage to the 1000 by using stuff like terrain.

Obviously the 100 will lose but it could be the difference between killing 150 or 15 of the attackers.
 
Just saw that allies of the loosing side will loose opinion with the war leader based on opinion. How exactly does that work?
If you participate and try really hard to protect your ally, will he like you (a bit) less just because your side lost?
 
Say where do the legendary bodyguard units fit in with this new system like the Varangian guard/Scolae Palatina, Mamluks and Ghulams?
 
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Just saw that allies of the loosing side will loose opinion with the war leader based on opinion. How exactly does that work?
If you participate and try really hard to protect your ally, will he like you (a bit) less just because your side lost?
Maybe I'm not seeing it, but it says that it increases opinion? "Increases his opinion of his allies based on their contribution"
 
CK2 however did not have stuff like impactful terrain, combat width and a counter system between men at arms, so in terms of strategy in the warfare system it is hard to say that CK3 is lacking. Also CK3 have siege weapons, the besiger is considered the attacker (so risker sieges) and duchy buildings to boost your army in various ways on the global level. So while CK3 may be lacking in certain ways compared to CK2, it have also added in new stuff to consider.

Units do, in fact, receive combat modifiers from the different terrain types in CK2, but the rest of what you said is true. The only reason why CK3 has combat width is because they are making combat more similar to their other games, which I'm highly skeptical about. The addition of siege weapons are awesome, but my skepticism regards the combat mechanics, not the addition of unit types.
 
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This also means that they aren't going to betray you the second you go into debt, which I know will sadden a lot of you, but this new system makes it a lot easier to keep track of what you have and don't have during war.

Yeah, keeping easy track and predactibility was desigin philosophy for Eu4. That's why I started to hate that game and was thanking God that Ck2 is still good. But sadly now it's time to ruin also a Ck.

Im devastated by this change. I loved that there was a possibility of mercenaries revolting due to not being paid. It was always interesting seeing their state emerge on the map. Now, another element of lively, extremly interesting and unpredictable world is gone becouse you want to make sure that no casual will quit when something unexpected happen to him.


Btw. I guess we can't form our own mercenary companies like we did in Ck2?
 
Units do, in fact, receive combat modifiers from the different terrain types in CK2, but the rest of what you said is true. The only reason why CK3 has combat width is because they are making combat more similar to their other games, which I'm highly skeptical about. The addition of siege weapons are awesome, but my skepticism regards the combat mechanics, not the addition of unit types.
The combat modifiers from terrain in CK2 is pretty small and addictive to other modifiers so they are completely dwarfed by stuff like tactics, but the big thing is Obviously combat width and also you can build stuff like Marches which do give combat bonuses in that duchy, so you can build like a killing field for the enemy, which is something I think is new for a paradox game, other than HOI forts.
 
does this mean you're obfuscating troop numbers now? or is this only on this screen?
Just for this type of view. Troop numbers are visible elsewhere!

1. How is the maximum number of Men-at-arms and knights determined? Fame level? Title tier (county, duchy, kingdom, empire)?
2. Will the max number of knights always equal the max number of men-at-arms, or is the case displayed simply a coincidence?
They are determined by stuff like your tier, various modifiers, *REDACTED*, etc.
The number of Men-at-Arms slots and the number of Knights are calculated separately, although they have some of the same inputs, so that a bigger realm will generally have more of both.

Question - will it be possible to raise the levies, knights and the man-at-arms separately from each other? Or only way to rise army is to press "Raise all armies" button?
It is possible to divide your troops between different armies so that you don't have to raise all of them at once, yes.

Will We be able to mod in our own men at arms regiments?
When we raise vassal troops do we get some of their men at arms or just levies?
Yes, it will be possible to mod in new Men-at-Arms types.
Vassals do not provide Men-at-Arms.

I'm starting to wonder whether the devs have forgotten that the RPG element of ck2 helped make a deep strategy game fun
Nope! I think you'll find CK3 to be a significant improvement in terms of strategic depth. I do, at least!

The mercs seem fine too, I like that they have a big upfront cost instead of just a high upkeep. That makes them very different from regular troops, since you have to hire them for three years, not just a few months. Just one question: Where do they spawn when hired? In their 'capital'? Or in yours? If so, does it take some time until they arrive?
They spawn to the first of your rally points, so where you usually gather your "main" army.

Also form a gameplay perspective it doesn't make much sense too: To declare a war, you need prestige. To get prestige, you need to win wars... Doesn't sound like a good system.
There are a lot of sources of Prestige outside of war as well.

If we upgrade MoA Size do they still use one MoA Slot or take more. So thoretically it would be possible to go full professional army.
They still only take up one MaA slot, so if you have the gold, it's possible to field a lot of them, even with a limited number of slots.

Can we upgrade MoA expertise level or do they get bonuses from combat experience?
No, their performance is primarily tied to their size.

Can we still be able to construct our own merchanery companys and send them out of world, if so can we chooce what merchanery companys consist of what men of arms they have and how much levys they have.
No, unfortunately.

Will it be now possible to declare war over more than one claim or will the choice still be between "press x claim" and "press all claims"?
Depends on the CB you might have. What CBs you have access to will change pretty significantly over the course of the game.
That said, there's no CB that's "press 3 out of X claims", for example.

Do terrain bonuses still only apply to defensive armies or do you get them regardless of if you attacked or not now?
Terrain bonuses for Men-at-Arms will apply even if you're the attacker. As for the overall impact on the two sides' Advantage, it mostly favours the defender.

I cannot see any filter and/or filter to order the mercenaries by cost, levy size etc... Is this implemented?
Another thing, do we have the ability to raise only peasants and not MaA? It's not clear looking at the screenshot you gave us.
1: You don't have access to so many Mercenaries at once that this has come up as an issue, but might be worth looking at if it does!
2: The MaAs become a part of your armies, and are raised with them.

How big impact(or any ?)Man at arms/knights has ?
They are pretty significant!

Are MaO seperate troop pool or they tap on levy pool? so if you increase ammount of MoA sizes your levt pool decreases or they are totaly seperate.
They are a separate pool.

Also, I noticed how this DD has completely skipped Holy Orders.... :rolleyes:
:cool::cool::cool:

Just saw that allies of the loosing side will loose opinion with the war leader based on opinion. How exactly does that work?
If you participate and try really hard to protect your ally, will he like you (a bit) less just because your side lost?
It's the other way around, the war leader's opinion of them will improve depending on their contribution. Jumping in to help someone even makes it more likely that they become your friend!
 
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I'm kinda weirded out by the decription and artwork of the levies. You guys do realize that peasants being pressed into combat with little to no equipment or training wasn't generally a thing during this period? They would've been useless in battle and a huge waste of resources since you needed peasants to work their fields. It'd be like the owner of a farm driving their cattle at the enemy, hoping they trample one or two guys before dying. Also feels wrong from a cultural point of view, since the whole justification for kings and lords and knights and such was built on the peasants working the land while their betters fought and protected them.
I recall Late Byzantium (1300s and later) mustering exactly the kind of untrained peasant hordes for wars just to fill out battles - but this actually proves your point, because they were hilariously ill-disciplined and equipped, never actually managed to win any battles, and usually ended up deserting and plundering their own lands before any combat was ever seen. In short, the kind of peasant levies with no equipment A) have historical basis, however niche, and B) were actually worse than useless and were actively detrimental to the war effort of the people who used them.
 
This also means that they aren't going to betray you the second you go into debt, which I know will sadden a lot of you, but this new system makes it a lot easier to keep track of what you have and don't have during war.
Another disappointment, limiting their betrayal to debt was itself already the easy mode compared to history, where even paid mercenaries tended to be unreliable and go out of control.
 
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Best solution for mercs would be combination of what is proposed in Ck3 and what we have in Ck2.

So longer contracts + initial payment + regular upkeep. This would even increase possibility of mercenary revolt or changing sides becouse you wouldnt be able to just dismiss them when you are running low o cash. For me it would make game more interesting.
 
Another disappointment, limiting their betrayal to debt was itself already the easy mode compared to history, where even paid mercenaries tended to be unreliable and go out of control.
We don't know if there will be specific mercenary events, which very well could be the case. Even regular armies could be unreliable at times so it was not unique to mercenaries.
 
We don't know if there will be specific mercenary events, which very well could be the case. Even regular armies could be unreliable at times so it was not unique to mercenaries.
On that id like to see instances like Manzikert and Bosworth, where a vassal that's disloyal can abstain/run from a battle. Had Doukas/Northumberland not deserted the outcomes could have been very different.
 
On that id like to see instances like Manzikert and Bosworth, where a vassal that's disloyal can abstain/run from a battle. Had Doukas/Northumberland not deserted the outcomes could have been very different.
Sometimes the commander lost Control over the army. like battle of Hasting which was a major reason for the defeat.

Also what will the next DD be about?
 
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Still kinda disappointed that retinues don't exist. I still believe they should be available, as the most expensive, but also the most efficient type of an army. Levies >> Men at Arms >> Retinues. Another thing that disappoints me is the unrealistically small number of knights. Knights should be expensive and scarce, but having 10 knights in a 5000 army is ridiculous. Those types should be commanders IMHO, and knights should be an elite type of heavy cavalry or heavy infantry.
Cultural types of troops is a great addition though.
I guess most of it can be modded, so... HIP for CK3 hopefully.
 
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In history there were conflicts between
Polish Princes/Kings and German Dukes without Kaiser going to participate in them. In CK2this could be simulated by allowing everyone to raid and assembling raiders as King of Poland.
Will be possible to wage war against members of HRE without declaring war to Kaiser?