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CK3 Dev Diary #18 - Men-at-Arms, Mercenaries and CBs

Hello everyone, and welcome back!

This week we’ll be talking about a lot of additional details surrounding warfare. Just a few bits and pieces that have changed since CK2.

Casus Belli
One thing that is as it ever was, however, is that you need a Casus Belli to go to war, and that CB determines what happens when the war is won (or lost!). The most common ones are for pressing claims, as you’re familiar with from CK2. In different situations there will be a different options, of course, and some are even unlocked in special ways, such as the ones unlocked by perks, as shown off in the Diplomacy Lifestyle dev diary.
Declare war view.PNG


War Declaration Cost
One thing that has changed a little is the fact that different CBs come with different “declaration costs” attached to them. This is usually Prestige or Piety, depending on whether you are starting a war against a fellow believer or someone from another faith. On the other hand, we don’t want to keep you from taking advantage of a great opportunity just because you’re missing 10 Prestige at a crucial moment, so the costs are optional, in a sense.

You can declare a war without paying its cost, at which point you’ll instead pay something bigger, such as a Level of Fame or Devotion.

Levels of Fame/Devotion brings their own benefits, so ideally you want to avoid this, but it’s not as big a problem as - say - truce breaking. It’s not going to cripple your play, just set you back a little bit in exchange for getting to raise your armies and take some new titles while your enemy is weak. This is also one of the ways that Piety and Prestige gain has become more valuable than it was in CK2. You want to use it for more stuff, and it’s always useful to have lying around!

Men-at-Arms
We have talked about armies before, where we talked about the difference between your levies and your Men-at-Arms. Your levies are your unwashed masses, indistinguishable peasants more than willing to die for the few measly pieces of gold you throw their way. Men-at-Arms, on the other hand, are more specialist troops, and the component that gives you more control over precisely how you win your wars. They are in many ways your elite troops, ready to march through mountains and marshes for you.
MaA view.PNG


You have a maximum number of Men-at-Arms regiment slots for your army, and in addition they have an upkeep cost. It’s small when they’re unraised, but the moment you have them stand up to go to war, they’ll demand a lot more pay!

Even though you can max out your MaA slots, there are other ways you can expand your army. Each MaA regiment can be increased a set number of times, to field even more of your deadly warriors. This will naturally increase their maintenance cost as well (both raised and unraised) so think twice before hiring twice as many soldiers!

There are many different types of MaA regiments, and what their type is determines a number of things, such as what terrain they are good at fighting in, and what kind of MaA Regiments they are good at countering, or get countered by. Over time, you may also be able to acquire new types of MaA Regiments. This means that the bulk of armies are likely to be quite different if you start in 867 compared to when you reach the end of the game.
Create MaA view.PNG


MaAs also include siege engines, which is one of the easiest way of speeding up your land grabs. However, siege weapons are almost useless in regular combat, and taking them uses up one of your MaA slots, so it’s a decision that has to be carefully thought through.
MaA siege engine.PNG


In addition to a standard slate of MaA types, different cultures gain access to different unique MaAs. These will vary greatly across the world, but are generally specialised in the conditions of warfare that’s typical for the culture in question.
Camel Riders.PNG


You will also be able to look at battle reports to get an indication of what kind of impact specific types of MaAs have on your battles. This can let you figure out whether your strategies are paying off, or whether it’s finally time to get some Pikemen to counter the Light Cavalry that your rival is always fielding.

So to sum it all up, Men-at-Arms are great for countering specific troop types, adjusting to specific types of terrain, and directly bolstering the number of soldiers in your army! Sometimes, strategising and countering isn’t enough, however, and that’s where Mercenaries come in!

Mercenaries
Mercenaries are familiar to any CK2 player, of course, but they have changed a little now.

First of all, you no longer pay monthly maintenance for them. Instead you pay their cost for three years up front, and then they’re yours for that time to use as you see fit. They’ll stay with you through thick and thin (although mostly the thick of battle).
Mercenary company screenshot 3.PNG


Once the three years are almost up, you’ll receive an alert warning you that the Mercenaries are about to pack up and get on their way! You’ll then have the opportunity to pay them for another three years of service. This also means that they aren't going to betray you the second you go into debt, which I know will sadden a lot of you, but this new system makes it a lot easier to keep track of what you have and don't have during war.

So Mercenaries are an expensive way of doing warfare, but sometimes it’s the only way you’ll survive. However, in order to find a Mercenary Company that fits you in both size and shape, we have a new system for generating them to make sure there's always a wide range to choose from.
Mercenary Hire view 2.PNG


Each culture generates between one and three Mercenary companies depending on the number of counties of that culture, with each additional company being bigger and more expensive than the previous one. They will also pick a county of their culture to keep as their headquarters, and will be available to be hired by anyone within a certain range of that county.

With each culture generating Mercenaries, their names and coats of arms are either picked from a generated list of names specific to their culture so that you can get historical or particularly flavourful companies in there.

On top of everything else, Mercenary companies come with one or more specific Men-at-Arms types, which means that you may want to consider not only which company is the biggest one you can afford, but which is the best suited for the war you’re about to fight.

This should all offer you a lot of varied strategies for how you go about your wars. Is it worth saving up for the CB cost or mercenary-Gold ahead of time? What Men-at-Arms should you be using against your ancestral enemies? Who would win in a fight between the the White Company and the Company of the Hat??

You’ll just have to wait until release to see...
 
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Honestly, another dev diary on one of the most disappointing simplifications of the feudal system, combined with another reminder the war system is unchanged, is not what CK3 needs right now.
Unless piety and prestige is actually scarce (which it never was in CK2, but also this was a good thing) the cost of war is pointless.
Why does war cost piety, or prestige, or fame, or devotion? A won war should never cost anything so intangible, only a lost war, which was already a mechanic.
 
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If it's considered unfortunate that mercenary companies cannot be formed in CK3, and such was a mechanic available in CK2, why was that mechanic not carried over into CK3? I'm just baffled by how some content of CK2 was entirely cut for CK3.
Cause we cannot have everything from CK2 and improve mechanics from CK2 and add new mechanics and still do that in a time period where we can actually still release the game.

CK2 had like 8+ years of development, if you want everything from CK2 along with all the new things then this game would probably itself take 8 years to make and thus require a much higher price point to make up the costs which people would then instead complain about.

To every single "Why is X not in" there are generally two answers:
1. It was bad in CK2 and we don't want to port bad things just for the sake of it, we'd rather make actual fleshed out good things now or in later patches/expansions.
2. We don't have time to do everything, some things have to be sacrificed so other things can be done.

We've of course tried to prioritise the things we don't carry over so that they are things with minimal impact or minimal usage by players. Creatable mercenary companies falls into that category, it is very low impact and not a highly used feature by people.
 
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Definitely, and there have been some things cut that I completely agree with (along with some I wish were cut, but that's beside the point). I suppose I was just puzzled some by the response - that it was considered unfortunate that it had to be cut, when it (seemingly) didn't have to be. But, I suppose I may be underestimating the effort necessary to port a feature from CK2 to CK3! Either way, thank you for the response, and I do hope my question caused no offense, for none was meant by it.
No offense taken, this is just something that comes up a lot as a question and a misunderstanding about development in general in games! :D

The code of CK2 and CK3 are entirely different, you cannot copy paste over mechanics at all really, trying to do would require a lot of reworking.

Any feature needing to be cut is unfortunate, as we also want all the fun things in the game as well ;) But at the end of the day we've gotta prioritise the limited time to get the most bang of our time investment and something small and rarely used like custom mercs is just not up there
 
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It feels like this is a step towards a more basic system in most regards.

I'm starting to wonder whether the devs have forgotten that the RPG element of ck2 helped make a deep strategy game fun, not the other way around.
 
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I'm not aware of any lord sending unarmed civilians anywhere to die in their armies. Not only is this stupid, as you are just wasting manpower that could be productive farming etc. But its ineffective on the battlefield and reflects badly on you as a noble.

Often in England used as Spearmen and bowmen...

I didn't think this has to be said but nobles at times provided the equipment they thought necessary for their peasant levy. But this depends on the region of the world, of course, like mentioned with Peasants in Sweden.

EDIT:
Basic google foo
"By the 11th century, much of the infantry fighting was conducted by high-ranking nobles, middle-class freemen and peasants, who were expected to have a certain standard of equipment, often including helmet, spear, shield and secondary weapons in the form of an axe, long knife or sword. Peasants were also used for the role of archers and skirmishers, providing missile cover for the heavy infantry and cavalry. "
The levies in the game basically replace light infantry and skirmishers. They'll have gambisons, helmets, improvised polearms, hand-me-down swords, and bows as these are relatively easy for peasants to get their hands on. They aren't unarmed and unarmored peasants.
 
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Yet another step back from ck2...

Why do wars even need a cost in prestige/devotion? What does how prestigious you are have to do with the ability to declare wars? This just seems like mana by any other name.

Men at arms are watered down retinues.

the only improvement is mercenaries
 
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Yet another step back from ck2...

Why do wars even need a cost in prestige/devotion? What does how prestigious you are have to do with the ability to declare wars? This just seems like mana by any other name.

Men at arms are watered down retinues.

the only improvement is mercenaries
How is the war declaration a step back from CK2. It's literally exactly the same. Prestige/Piety cost was there before. "Men at arms are watered down retinues" doesn't seem like what you're talking about, so what is it? I don't get it.

Can people who are saying this is simpler explain what exactly they're referring to?
 
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CK2 was released almost ten years ago. It's a step back to refuse to improve on this system in any way.

Do you know what it means for something to be a step back? Something being the same isn't a step of any kind. It's not a step forward for certain. I'm disappointed it wasn't changed somewhat myself, but I'm just confused by people calling it a step back when it's exactly the same.
 
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The retinue system combined with the levy system makes far, far more sense than having this half-assed "unwashed masses" nonsense combined with what is essentially a retinue system. You can't tell me this is how feudalism works!


As far as I can tell, that's exactly how fuedalism worked.


A few highly-trained elite knights, followed by a small amount of well-drilled professional troops, pushing along a mass of peasant scum with farm implements in front of them as the bulk of thier force.
 
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No army ever fielded peasants, that's another dark age myth. unarmed civilians are only going to stand in the way in a battle.
Peasants in Sweden was not unarmed or neither the people of lowest social class and the Scandinavian countries did have some sort of conscription system and these people was expected to own stuff like a spear, shield, bow/crossbow with 36 Arrows and a helm if I'm not wrong. That is what I suspect levies represent, not people armed with a pitchfork. I think these trained maybe 1 month or so per year, making them maybe more comparable to modern conscripts.
 
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Peasants were widely used, and in some Northern European countries free peasants were required to be armed by law.
Yes, and they were armed.
My point is that the stereotypical image of Medieval armies composed of civilians armed with forks is a myth, conscripted levies came from the peasantry but they were expected to come with military equipment, even if it was definitely on the cheaper end.
 
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Question - will it be possible to raise the levies, knights and the man-at-arms separately from each other? Or only way to rise army is to press "Raise all armies" button?
 
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It feels like this is a step towards a more basic system in most regards.

I'm starting to wonder whether the devs have forgotten that the RPG element of ck2 helped make a deep strategy game fun, not the other way around.
Well CK2 did not have a counter system, mercs could be raised and disbanded at will, no siege weapons, no Knights and so on.
 
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How will units like the Varangian Guard be represented?

Since the topic of armies developing over the course of the game came up, will gunpowder armed units be represented in the late game?
 
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That makes more sense. I for one think retinues were executed poorly in CK2 to begin with, tbh, so I kind of think of this as somewhat of an improvement. Have to agree paying set unit costs to declare wars doesn't really make sense.
The retinue system combined with the levy system makes far, far more sense than having this half-assed "unwashed masses" nonsense combined with what is essentially a retinue system. You can't tell me this is how feudalism works!
 
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does this mean you're obfuscating troop numbers now? or is this only on this screen?
Just for this type of view. Troop numbers are visible elsewhere!

1. How is the maximum number of Men-at-arms and knights determined? Fame level? Title tier (county, duchy, kingdom, empire)?
2. Will the max number of knights always equal the max number of men-at-arms, or is the case displayed simply a coincidence?
They are determined by stuff like your tier, various modifiers, *REDACTED*, etc.
The number of Men-at-Arms slots and the number of Knights are calculated separately, although they have some of the same inputs, so that a bigger realm will generally have more of both.

Question - will it be possible to raise the levies, knights and the man-at-arms separately from each other? Or only way to rise army is to press "Raise all armies" button?
It is possible to divide your troops between different armies so that you don't have to raise all of them at once, yes.

Will We be able to mod in our own men at arms regiments?
When we raise vassal troops do we get some of their men at arms or just levies?
Yes, it will be possible to mod in new Men-at-Arms types.
Vassals do not provide Men-at-Arms.

I'm starting to wonder whether the devs have forgotten that the RPG element of ck2 helped make a deep strategy game fun
Nope! I think you'll find CK3 to be a significant improvement in terms of strategic depth. I do, at least!

The mercs seem fine too, I like that they have a big upfront cost instead of just a high upkeep. That makes them very different from regular troops, since you have to hire them for three years, not just a few months. Just one question: Where do they spawn when hired? In their 'capital'? Or in yours? If so, does it take some time until they arrive?
They spawn to the first of your rally points, so where you usually gather your "main" army.

Also form a gameplay perspective it doesn't make much sense too: To declare a war, you need prestige. To get prestige, you need to win wars... Doesn't sound like a good system.
There are a lot of sources of Prestige outside of war as well.

If we upgrade MoA Size do they still use one MoA Slot or take more. So thoretically it would be possible to go full professional army.
They still only take up one MaA slot, so if you have the gold, it's possible to field a lot of them, even with a limited number of slots.

Can we upgrade MoA expertise level or do they get bonuses from combat experience?
No, their performance is primarily tied to their size.

Can we still be able to construct our own merchanery companys and send them out of world, if so can we chooce what merchanery companys consist of what men of arms they have and how much levys they have.
No, unfortunately.

Will it be now possible to declare war over more than one claim or will the choice still be between "press x claim" and "press all claims"?
Depends on the CB you might have. What CBs you have access to will change pretty significantly over the course of the game.
That said, there's no CB that's "press 3 out of X claims", for example.

Do terrain bonuses still only apply to defensive armies or do you get them regardless of if you attacked or not now?
Terrain bonuses for Men-at-Arms will apply even if you're the attacker. As for the overall impact on the two sides' Advantage, it mostly favours the defender.

I cannot see any filter and/or filter to order the mercenaries by cost, levy size etc... Is this implemented?
Another thing, do we have the ability to raise only peasants and not MaA? It's not clear looking at the screenshot you gave us.
1: You don't have access to so many Mercenaries at once that this has come up as an issue, but might be worth looking at if it does!
2: The MaAs become a part of your armies, and are raised with them.

How big impact(or any ?)Man at arms/knights has ?
They are pretty significant!

Are MaO seperate troop pool or they tap on levy pool? so if you increase ammount of MoA sizes your levt pool decreases or they are totaly seperate.
They are a separate pool.

Also, I noticed how this DD has completely skipped Holy Orders.... :rolleyes:
:cool::cool::cool:

Just saw that allies of the loosing side will loose opinion with the war leader based on opinion. How exactly does that work?
If you participate and try really hard to protect your ally, will he like you (a bit) less just because your side lost?
It's the other way around, the war leader's opinion of them will improve depending on their contribution. Jumping in to help someone even makes it more likely that they become your friend!
 
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Just wondering in CK2 if you declare war and the leader of the opposing side dies it ends the war, will this be removed in CK3, really annoying when your on the verge of winning, get into a battle with there leader and they then die which suddenly ends the war or can there be an option if you pressing a claim for someone else to either end the war or fabricate a claim for yourself and continue the war.
 
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Yes, and they were armed.
My point is that the stereotypical image of Medieval armies composed of civilians armed with forks is a myth, conscripted levies came from the peasantry but they were expected to come with military equipment, even if it was definitely on the cheaper end.
Pretty much. And they were the equivalent of HoI4's 'scrapping the barrel'.

A late 15th century example:
"Under the reign of Stephen the Great, all farmers and villagers had to bear arms. Stephen justified this by saying that "every man has a duty to defend his fatherland"; according to Polish chronicler Jan Długosz, if someone was found without carrying a weapon, he was sentenced to death.[1] Stephen reformed the army by promoting men from the landed free peasantry răzeşi (i.e. something akin to freeholding yeomen) to infantry (voinici) and light cavalry (hânsari) — to make himself less dependent on the boyars — and introduced his army to guns. In times of crises, The Small Host (Oastea Mică) — which consisted of around 10,000 to 12,000 men — stood ready to engage the enemy, while the Large Host (Oastea Mare) — which could reach up to 40,000 — had all the free peasantry older than 14, and strong enough to carry a sword or use the bow, recruited. This seldom happened, for such a levée en masse was devastating for both economy and population growth. In the Battle of Vaslui, Stephen had to summon the Large Host and also recruited mercenary troops."

 
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