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CK3 Dev Diary #18 - Men-at-Arms, Mercenaries and CBs

Hello everyone, and welcome back!

This week we’ll be talking about a lot of additional details surrounding warfare. Just a few bits and pieces that have changed since CK2.

Casus Belli
One thing that is as it ever was, however, is that you need a Casus Belli to go to war, and that CB determines what happens when the war is won (or lost!). The most common ones are for pressing claims, as you’re familiar with from CK2. In different situations there will be a different options, of course, and some are even unlocked in special ways, such as the ones unlocked by perks, as shown off in the Diplomacy Lifestyle dev diary.
Declare war view.PNG


War Declaration Cost
One thing that has changed a little is the fact that different CBs come with different “declaration costs” attached to them. This is usually Prestige or Piety, depending on whether you are starting a war against a fellow believer or someone from another faith. On the other hand, we don’t want to keep you from taking advantage of a great opportunity just because you’re missing 10 Prestige at a crucial moment, so the costs are optional, in a sense.

You can declare a war without paying its cost, at which point you’ll instead pay something bigger, such as a Level of Fame or Devotion.

Levels of Fame/Devotion brings their own benefits, so ideally you want to avoid this, but it’s not as big a problem as - say - truce breaking. It’s not going to cripple your play, just set you back a little bit in exchange for getting to raise your armies and take some new titles while your enemy is weak. This is also one of the ways that Piety and Prestige gain has become more valuable than it was in CK2. You want to use it for more stuff, and it’s always useful to have lying around!

Men-at-Arms
We have talked about armies before, where we talked about the difference between your levies and your Men-at-Arms. Your levies are your unwashed masses, indistinguishable peasants more than willing to die for the few measly pieces of gold you throw their way. Men-at-Arms, on the other hand, are more specialist troops, and the component that gives you more control over precisely how you win your wars. They are in many ways your elite troops, ready to march through mountains and marshes for you.
MaA view.PNG


You have a maximum number of Men-at-Arms regiment slots for your army, and in addition they have an upkeep cost. It’s small when they’re unraised, but the moment you have them stand up to go to war, they’ll demand a lot more pay!

Even though you can max out your MaA slots, there are other ways you can expand your army. Each MaA regiment can be increased a set number of times, to field even more of your deadly warriors. This will naturally increase their maintenance cost as well (both raised and unraised) so think twice before hiring twice as many soldiers!

There are many different types of MaA regiments, and what their type is determines a number of things, such as what terrain they are good at fighting in, and what kind of MaA Regiments they are good at countering, or get countered by. Over time, you may also be able to acquire new types of MaA Regiments. This means that the bulk of armies are likely to be quite different if you start in 867 compared to when you reach the end of the game.
Create MaA view.PNG


MaAs also include siege engines, which is one of the easiest way of speeding up your land grabs. However, siege weapons are almost useless in regular combat, and taking them uses up one of your MaA slots, so it’s a decision that has to be carefully thought through.
MaA siege engine.PNG


In addition to a standard slate of MaA types, different cultures gain access to different unique MaAs. These will vary greatly across the world, but are generally specialised in the conditions of warfare that’s typical for the culture in question.
Camel Riders.PNG


You will also be able to look at battle reports to get an indication of what kind of impact specific types of MaAs have on your battles. This can let you figure out whether your strategies are paying off, or whether it’s finally time to get some Pikemen to counter the Light Cavalry that your rival is always fielding.

So to sum it all up, Men-at-Arms are great for countering specific troop types, adjusting to specific types of terrain, and directly bolstering the number of soldiers in your army! Sometimes, strategising and countering isn’t enough, however, and that’s where Mercenaries come in!

Mercenaries
Mercenaries are familiar to any CK2 player, of course, but they have changed a little now.

First of all, you no longer pay monthly maintenance for them. Instead you pay their cost for three years up front, and then they’re yours for that time to use as you see fit. They’ll stay with you through thick and thin (although mostly the thick of battle).
Mercenary company screenshot 3.PNG


Once the three years are almost up, you’ll receive an alert warning you that the Mercenaries are about to pack up and get on their way! You’ll then have the opportunity to pay them for another three years of service. This also means that they aren't going to betray you the second you go into debt, which I know will sadden a lot of you, but this new system makes it a lot easier to keep track of what you have and don't have during war.

So Mercenaries are an expensive way of doing warfare, but sometimes it’s the only way you’ll survive. However, in order to find a Mercenary Company that fits you in both size and shape, we have a new system for generating them to make sure there's always a wide range to choose from.
Mercenary Hire view 2.PNG


Each culture generates between one and three Mercenary companies depending on the number of counties of that culture, with each additional company being bigger and more expensive than the previous one. They will also pick a county of their culture to keep as their headquarters, and will be available to be hired by anyone within a certain range of that county.

With each culture generating Mercenaries, their names and coats of arms are either picked from a generated list of names specific to their culture so that you can get historical or particularly flavourful companies in there.

On top of everything else, Mercenary companies come with one or more specific Men-at-Arms types, which means that you may want to consider not only which company is the biggest one you can afford, but which is the best suited for the war you’re about to fight.

This should all offer you a lot of varied strategies for how you go about your wars. Is it worth saving up for the CB cost or mercenary-Gold ahead of time? What Men-at-Arms should you be using against your ancestral enemies? Who would win in a fight between the the White Company and the Company of the Hat??

You’ll just have to wait until release to see...
 
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Arona

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Cool if allys actually get fame/prestige by they contribution and player also so it can motivate player actually to take part of war not just sit it out.
 

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I don't mind paying prestige or piety to declare wars, the small changes to mercs are pretty neat, the addition of more CBs are fine and dandy, and having more options to tailor your retin.. *cough*, I mean men-at-arms, is pretty great as well. But I have to admit that when I saw another war-related DD I was hoping for tactics, for flanks and sub-commanders, everything that adds some real depth to the game. Don't get me wrong, having retinues counter each other is great, but that's also the only hint of depth we've regarding combat. Overall, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disheartened by it all. This is not good enough for a studio such as PDS, and I know you can do much better.
 

crowdemon

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Look like CK2 if you look at the screenshot you can see victory, White Peace and defeat.

index.php

It looks like declaring war to me, but I could be wrong.
 

Xain

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Also, I see that the mercenary list show manpower and type of MoA that come with the merry company - but not the number of knights. Wouldn't it make sense to show it here as well?

EDIT - Sorry, I stand corrected. They are probably represented by the small lozenges near the manpower number
 

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The dove is white peace, the broken flag is defeat, the headdress is victory (iconographically from a triumph, I assume)
Yes that was my thinking. You can see what happens for each case by pressing each of the 3 buttons.

Do terrain bonuses still only apply to defensive armies or do you get them regardless of if you attacked or not now?
I think men at arms get terrain bonus as both defender and attacker but the defender get additional bonuses from terrain and terrain together with the size of the defender army determine combat width.
 

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are we able to decleare war for multible claims and target them like . Wish to decleare war for this claim for me and this claim for that vassal or claimant so dont have to wait for years of white peace to attack again for single claim
 
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How big impact(or any ?)Man at arms/knights has ?
They are crucial ?
Tactics, morale et'c
I see huge mumber difference between levies and knights and Man at arms
How you made them worth to use ?
 

Denkt

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How big impact(or any ?)Man at arms/knights have ?
They are crucial ?
Tactics, morale et'c
I see huge mumber difference between levies and knights and Man at arms
How you made them worth to use ?
Men at arms have quite big impact according to the developers and the game will have combat width based on the size of the defending army as well as which terrain the battle take place in so a high quality army can defeat a larger army of low quality by taking advantage of combat width.

Morale will not be in as a separate value, but individual Soldiers will be considered killed or routed.

Are MaO seperate troop pool or they tap on levy pool? so if you increase ammount of MoA sizes your levt pool decreases or they are totaly seperate.
Look like they are separated, like CK2 retinues.
 

Parokki

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I'm kinda weirded out by the decription and artwork of the levies. You guys do realize that peasants being pressed into combat with little to no equipment or training wasn't generally a thing during this period? They would've been useless in battle and a huge waste of resources since you needed peasants to work their fields. It'd be like the owner of a farm driving their cattle at the enemy, hoping they trample one or two guys before dying. Also feels wrong from a cultural point of view, since the whole justification for kings and lords and knights and such was built on the peasants working the land while their betters fought and protected them.

There were better equipped more professional troops and part time warriors with lesser gear who you'd only call in if you needed all your guys, but these weren't untrained peasants in their regular work clothes wielding modified farm tools. I think CK2 portrayed this difference quite well with a lot of your troops being especially early on being light infantry and how much effort it took to field a mostly heavy infantry/cavalry army. Going this way feels kinda like if there was a sequel to Imperator that went full Rome: Total War (2004) and portrayed Egypt as this weird Middle Kingdom fantasy over a thousand years from the game's time period. It was fine in the previous game, so you don't need to mess with it!

I might be being a bit harsh here as the mechanics seem ok, but please at least consider changing the description and artwork into something a bit more true to life. The knights are quite heavily armoured, so maybe a lighter helmet like what the archers are wearing with an unpainted wooden shield and a very basic spear? The angry farmer could be repurposed for a peasant revolt event or something.
 
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Arona

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How big impact(or any ?)Man at arms/knights has ?
They are crucial ?
Tactics, morale et'c
I see huge mumber difference between levies and knights and Man at arms
How you made them worth to use ?


well levy is just peasant with pitchfork, man of arms is like 3 peasants and knight is about 20 peasants + cerain bonuses and penaltys.
 

Denkt

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I don't mind paying prestige or piety to declare wars, the small changes to mercs are pretty neat, the addition of more CBs are fine and dandy, and having more options to tailor your retin.. *cough*, I mean men-at-arms, is pretty great as well. But I have to admit that when I saw another war-related DD I was hoping for tactics, for flanks and sub-commanders, everything that adds some real depth to the game. Don't get me wrong, having retinues counter each other is great, but that's also the only hint of depth we've regarding combat. Overall, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disheartened by it all. This is not good enough for a studio such as PDS, and I know you can do much better.
CK2 however did not have stuff like impactful terrain, combat width and a counter system between men at arms, so in terms of strategy in the warfare system it is hard to say that CK3 is lacking. Also CK3 have siege weapons, the besiger is considered the attacker (so risker sieges) and duchy buildings to boost your army in various ways on the global level. So while CK3 may be lacking in certain ways compared to CK2, it have also added in new stuff to consider.
 
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Yes that was my thinking. You can see what happens for each case by pressing each of the 3 buttons.

I see what you mean, thanks for clarifying.
 

Xain

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I'm kinda weirded out by the decription and artwork of the levies. You guys do realize that peasants being pressed into combat with little to no equipment or training wasn't generally a thing during this period? They would've been useless in battle and a huge waste of resources since you needed peasants to work their fields. It'd be like the owner of a farm driving their cattle at the enemy, hoping they trample one or two guys before dying. Also feels wrong from a cultural point of view, since the whole justification for kings and lords and knights and such was built on the peasants working the land while their betters fought and protected them.

There were better equipped more professional troops and part time warriors with lesser gear who you'd only call in if you needed all your guys, but these weren't untrained peasants in their regular work clothes wielding modified farm tools. I think CK2 portrayed this difference quite well with a lot of your troops being especially early on being light infantry and how much effort it took to field a mostly heavy infantry/cavalry army. Going this way feels kinda like if there was a sequel to Imperator that went full Rome: Total War (2004) and portrayed Egypt as this weird Middle Kingdom fantasy over a thousand years from the game's time period. It was fine in the previous game, so you don't need to mess with it!

I might be being a bit harsh here as the mechanics seem ok, but please at least consider changing the description and artwork into something a bit more true to life. The knights are quite heavily armoured, so maybe a lighter helmet like what the archers are wearing with an unpainted wooden shield and a very basic spear? The angry farmer could be repurposed for a peasant revolt event or something.

They do not really seem like work clothes to me? I think that the levies are wearing padded coif...
 

Rubidium

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One could make the argument he was referring to some other part, but yes I agree on a technical level leaving a decade old mechanic that nobody likes unchanged is a not a step back and also a huge mistake
I actually like the CK2 CB mechanic? I may be the only one, but I enjoy the mini-game of "trying to get the right CB to do what I want" much more than the (often somewhat tedious) "mass troops and smash them into enemy; repeat and throw in some sieges/assaults as needed until you win" part of war-fighting. It's why I prefer to play as Christian feudals (with their more restricted CB selection) and always turn off the JD CBs.
 

LukeCreed13

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Looking at the terms of victory screenshot, it seems that now Prestige and opinion boni will be shared accordingly to each realm's war contribution, and not only for crusades as in Holy Fury but for every war, and mercs will come in various shapes and sizes. Finally not having to pay for a 4000 merc company as a count when I'd just as well need only a 1000 one to even my odds! And cultural retinues are great, though I don't know how they will work in very large realms with multiple different cultures.

All in all OK I think! The DD seems relatively similar to what we have in CK2, I guess that the real difference in war won't be in the mechanics taken alone but all together. Barony-level troop movement + terrain/fort penalties + levy size + retinue composition + siege engines + knights + commander traits + supply limits [edit: and combat width too]... and I don't know if I'm forgetting something :D . It's something that we'll need to see in action ourselves.

Also, I noticed how this DD has completely skipped Holy Orders.... :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Denkt

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All in all OK I think! The DD seem relatively similar to what we have in CK2, I guess that the real difference in war won't be in the mechanics taken alone but all together. Barony-level troop movement + terrain/fort penalties + levy size + retinue composition + siege engines + knights + commander traits + supply limits... and I don't know if I'm forgetting something :D . It's something that we'll need to see in action ourselves.
Maybe the most important change is the addition of combat width.