[SWMH] East Africa - suggestions & discussion

[elvain]

Also, I am wondering, what is the planned situation for Aydhab and Suakin? I did some research (besides Wikipedia, yes!) on those major trade ports along the Red Sea a while back while hunting for potential Muslim republics, and - if my memory is correct - it seems those cities - dominated by Arabs - had an interesting and tense relationship with the local Beja.

The situation as it is now (most of the Beja lands -map wise, but not the final setup- including Aydhab and Suakin were part of the previous Nubian expansion) is that with the province setup it will be quite hard to have them both represented, because especially Aydhab was the only real settlement in its hinterland and it is very hard to have province of Aydhab exclude Aydhab itself.

But I can imagine a republic in Suakin (it is for gameplay reasons a seat of 'high king' of the Beja above the rival 5 kingdoms, but that could be changed by just giving the king tier to one of them and claims to all others), also because Suakin does have enough settlements for that

But the Beja are still quite delicate... and it was their situation what finally forced me to include a special nomadic micro-mod in the current version.

Thanks for the replies. As hinted I've done a bit of research on Muslim "republics" and such so I look forward to helping you guys on that when the time comes.

Your work and research is fantastic in many ways and playing VIET-Immersion West African setup on SWMH map of West Africa will be one of my dreams comming true.

As for the muslim merchant republics, I'd really wish if we could have them inland (using the Sahara like a sea like they did) so your help will really be appreciated and can IMHO open a completely new aspects to CK2

 

[polskaGOLA]

btw, here's a little teaser about the soon-to-be-released version
[video=youtube;9LLuuyOJ5-w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LLuuyOJ5-w[/video]

I've been working on East Africa for MPM in EU4. Maybe we can compare our provinces later on, given how iffy finding good maps of Ethiopia in this time period are.

 

[theKing1988]

I've been working on East Africa for MPM in EU4. Maybe we can compare our provinces later on, given how iffy finding good maps of Ethiopia in this time period are.

Actually from 1300 and on it gets better and better.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I don't know enough about East Africa proper to be of much help, but I'd like to offer some suggestions on southern Arabia.

On the subject of the map/provinces, it would be more historically accurate to attach Socotra to the Mahra province. For the island's post-classical recorded history, it has been closely tied to Mahra, both politically and culturally. The language (a South Semitic tongue related to Mahran) and the people more closely resemble Mahrans in appearance than Somalis. And, although this period of recorded history only goes back to the first Portuguese landing circa 1500, it's not unreasonable to presume that the trend of much closer contact with Arabia than Somalia extended to the Middle Ages. If given its own province, it should be attached to the same duchy as Mahra, and have the same culture as Mahra, the Nestorian religion, and a 1-2 holding cap.

On the subject of culture, the provinces of Mahra, Dhofar, and possibly the Yemeni province immediately west of Mahra would have spoken/still speak South Semitic languages, which are more closely related to Amharic than they are to classical Arabic and its descendant dialects. This has always socially isolated them from their neighbors, and still helps them to preserve customs distinct from their Arab neighbors. IMO, this justifies a separate culture, at least in a mod that has distinct cultures for Corsica and Frisia, or distinguishes between Neapolitans and other mainland south Italians. I would simply call it South Arabian (Mahran would also work, but although the largest South Arabian group, they aren't dominant in Dhofar).

I guess this didn't catch anyone's attention before. Any word on this? I know it's rather minor compared to the other issues at debate in this thread, but, well, it's something.

 

[elvain]

I guess this didn't catch anyone's attention before. Any word on this? I know it's rather minor compared to the other issues at debate in this thread, but, well, it's something.

It was noted indeed, and it will be part of Arabian overhaul, which will probably be the last pre-RoI update from my side.

If Socotra in fact is not in game (it only lies on the map and nothing else, and unless we add sea provinces to the Indian Ocean, it makes no sense separating it), there is almost no point in moving it from one province to another.. but it can obviously and easil be done, even if it (in fact) changes nothing... for now.

I've been working on East Africa for MPM in EU4. Maybe we can compare our provinces later on, given how iffy finding good maps of Ethiopia in this time period are.

Yup, sure, if there is anything where I could help... anyway, I don't consider myself an expert about East Africa. From all the regions I overhauled (Maghreb, Egypt, West Africa, Sahara and East Africa) and plan to (Arabia, Persia) it is the one I know the least.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

It was noted indeed, and it will be part of Arabian overhaul, which will probably be the last pre-RoI update from my side.

If Socotra in fact is not in game (it only lies on the map and nothing else, and unless we add sea provinces to the Indian Ocean, it makes no sense separating it), there is almost no point in moving it from one province to another.. but it can obviously and easil be done, even if it (in fact) changes nothing... for now.

Cool, thanks. I guess I shouldn't have presumed that just because there was no response, that it wasn't noticed.

I definitely think it could wait for a post-RoI update. Socotra appears as a new, separate province in released RoI screenshots, and the province will actually have a point when Paradox implements non-buggy separate oceans.

My only worry is that the province will be too important. Like the Canaries, it is likely to be involved in all sorts of wars and foreign diplomacy that, in reality, simply passed the island by due to geographical isolation (though Socotra was on a major trade route, and had some valuable exports of its own, you can't even dock on the island for half of the year, and AFAIK it was never of any political significance).

 

[EmperorTojo]

Where is the jewish kingdom? It'd be a nice addition. And yeah, I'd petition for an ahistorical suez canal. It'd be sort of great. I'm sure everyone would want it.

And, speaking of east africa, the religions are a bit messy if you ask me. The Beja people were converted christians, but some retained as pagans and/or muslims. In 1066 at least, they are muslim with pagan provinces which I do not believe is accurate.


Also, could we have a north/west africa thread? There's arguably some issues with the cultures and religion there. The berber cultures are spread out a bit inappropriately (Masmuda especially but would probably need more provinces in morocco to fix this,) and much of its localisation shares spanish names and such which is sort of confusing. Ibadi as dominant religion in 1066 makes little sense, as well as there being no available tuareg rulers.

 

[theKing1988]

Where is the jewish kingdom? It'd be a nice addition. And yeah, I'd petition for an ahistorical suez canal. It'd be sort of great. I'm sure everyone would want it.

And, speaking of east africa, the religions are a bit messy if you ask me. The Beja people were converted christians, but some retained as pagans and/or muslims. In 1066 at least, they are muslim with pagan provinces which I do not believe is accurate.

It is added as a Duchy. Instead of adding countless of little Kingdoms for the region, Elvain have decided to depict them like the power they really possess and have Abyssinia be the only Kingdom in the early starts.

And i would very much like to see your sources on the Bejans then. Because everything i could find had the rulers as Christians and the people as pagans. Even after the rulers converted to Islam the people remained pagan for quite a while according to all the sources i have found.

I don't have the same knowledge of West Africa, but Elvain have studied the region extensively before even joining the mod team, so i actually think that the setup is quite accurate. You are welcome to debate sources with him of course .

 

[elvain]

Where is the jewish kingdom? It'd be a nice addition. And yeah, I'd petition for an ahistorical suez canal. It'd be sort of great. I'm sure everyone would want it.

And, speaking of east africa, the religions are a bit messy if you ask me. The Beja people were converted christians, but some retained as pagans and/or muslims. In 1066 at least, they are muslim with pagan provinces which I do not believe is accurate.


Also, could we have a north/west africa thread? There's arguably some issues with the cultures and religion there. The berber cultures are spread out a bit inappropriately (Masmuda especially but would probably need more provinces in morocco to fix this,) and much of its localisation shares spanish names and such which is sort of confusing. Ibadi as dominant religion in 1066 makes little sense, as well as there being no available tuareg rulers.

The jewish kingdom of Semien is there as a duchy, like theKing stated.

Concerning the Beja I'm all open to your suggestions how to make it better. In all the sources I found they had christian and later muslim rulers (except one southern tribe which remained christian) while the people remained pagan. This was pretty much confirmed by others with whom I discussed the topic. But I'm really interested in seing an alternative approach (and sources), which might make it better.

BTW, the setup in the current version (which will be replaced tomorrow) is far from ideal and the Beja are overhauled in the upcomming version.

Concerning West Africa and north Africa, we can discuss it here

 

[polskaGOLA]

The way I understand it, Ethiopia was more like an empire, ruling over various subject kingdoms.

Semien was smaller and politically weaker, so perhaps it is best represented as a duchy within Gondar, but I think there is a good argument to have Gondar, Gojjam, and all the rest represented as Kingdoms within the Ethiopian Empire. Edit: I misread theKing's post, I see it is already represented like this?

 

[elvain]

The way I understand it, Ethiopia was more like an empire, ruling over various subject kingdoms.

Semien was smaller and politically weaker, so perhaps it is best represented as a duchy within Gondar, but I think there is a good argument to have Gondar, Gojjam, and all the rest represented as Kingdoms within the Ethiopian Empire. Edit: I misread theKing's post, I see it is already represented like this?

I totally understand you, and to be honest I even planned this setup, but then I thought about it more throughoutly and realized that:
1) it would be anachronistic, because the power of the Zagwe or early Solomonid kings was far lower than the power of later Ethiopian emperors.
2) giving the Ethiopians (Zagwe and Solomonids) an emperor title would mean they have de jure claim on the whole region including Bahr kingdom, Nubia or Somalia, what makes very little sense to me. The other obvious way would be reducing the de jure empire, but frankly, would it make sense to have an empire consisting of 1-2 de jure kingdoms?
3) the empire of Ethiopia was in fact created AFTER the CK2 timeframe, so it should be very hard to create.

Abyssinia always struggled to increase its central power over those petty kingdoms, but I really don't think it would be wise decission to give them a kingdom tier. I must also admit that I'm not a big fan of 9-hding kingdoms. It was very hard decision for me to create a 4-province kingdom of Takrur in West Africa... while both Da'mot and Semien would have no more than 3 provinces (at peak of their power).

 

[theKing1988]

By the way, shouldn't Nobatia actually be Muslim for the later starts. I just found this to back it up.

The Ayyubids dealt very aggressively with the Bedouin tribes of the nearby deserts, forcing them south into conflict with the Nubians. Archaeology gives clear evidence of increasing instability in Makuria. Once unfortified cities gained city walls, the people retreated to better defended positions, such as the cliff tops at Qasr Ibrim. Houses throughout the region were built far sturdier, with secret hiding places for food and other valuables. Archaeology also shows increased signs of Arabization and Islamicization. Free trade between the kingdoms was part of the bakt, and over time Arab merchants became prominent in Dongola and other cities. Eventually the northern area, most of what was once Nobatia, had become largely Arabized and Islamicized. Largely independent of Dongola it was increasingly referred to as al-Maris.

And shouldn't it also be made possible to play as a that Muslim Makurian King that is being referred to here

After a period of peace King Karanbas defaulted on these payments, and the Mamluks again invaded and occupied the kingdom in 1312. This time a Muslim member of the Makurian dynasty was placed on the throne. Sayf al-Din Abdullah Barshambu began converting the nation to Islam and in 1317 the Dongola cathedral was turned into a mosque. This was not accepted by other Makurian leaders and the nation fell into civil war and anarchy that very year. The countryside came under the control of the raiding tribes from the desert, and the monarchy was left with effective control over little more than the capital. This effectively ended Makuria as a unified state. There is some evidence the Makurian dynasty survived until the end of the 14th century, including a Makurian call for aid in 1397. It has been suggested that the change of African trade routes and the Black Death did play a major role in the collapse.[3]

 

[elvain]

By the way, shouldn't Nobatia actually be Muslim for the later starts. I just found this to back it up.

And shouldn't it also be made possible to play as a that Muslim Makurian King that is being referred to here

This is right. In most of Africa (in fact except Ethiopia) the history was primarily done for the first start dates and for later ones there are some flaws and we are eliminating them only slowly.

For Nubia I was wondering how to simulate it, I'd really like to have a new succession law available for Nubians where the heir is a son of previous ruler's sister, which is exactly the reason why Nubia and primarily Makuria/Mukurra (Nobatia) were so vulnerable to islamisation.

Not sure if I will make it for this release, but will do my best...

 

[EmperorTojo]

Concerning the Beja I'm all open to your suggestions how to make it better. In all the sources I found they had christian and later muslim rulers (except one southern tribe which remained christian) while the people remained pagan. This was pretty much confirmed by others with whom I discussed the topic. But I'm really interested in seing an alternative approach (and sources), which might make it better.

Well my knowledge on Beja doesn't go beyond wikipedia, which implies that christianity gained quite alot of popularity after 6th century, and then in the 10th century islam became more popular it seems. I'll check out the thread also.

 

[elvain]

Well my knowledge on Beja doesn't go beyond wikipedia, which implies that christianity gained quite alot of popularity after 6th century, and then in the 10th century islam became more popular it seems. I'll check out the thread also.

Well, I don't remember what exactly wiki states, but I don't understand what's wrong with our setup then? The provinces remaining pagan?
Pretty much any relevant source (iirc including wiki) states that paganism survived among the people for quite some time. Certainly not for the entire CK2 period, but after 11th century for sure

 

[EmperorTojo]

Well, I don't remember what exactly wiki states, but I don't understand what's wrong with our setup then? The provinces remaining pagan?
Pretty much any relevant source (iirc including wiki) states that paganism survived among the people for quite some time. Certainly not for the entire CK2 period, but after 11th century for sure

I'll concede to them being pagan, but perhaps we could have some west african pagan characters then? I am not sure if you have done this or not. And should Beja character(s) be christian in old gods scenario, perhaps?

 

[elvain]

I'll concede to them being pagan, but perhaps we could have some west african pagan characters then? I am not sure if you have done this or not. And should Beja character(s) be christian in old gods scenario, perhaps?

There will be pagan characters in the game - courtiers and rebels...no need to create more placeholders.
And the Beja characters are Christian in the Old Gods scenario.

 

[theKing1988]

I'll concede to them being pagan, but perhaps we could have some west african pagan characters then? I am not sure if you have done this or not. And should Beja character(s) be christian in old gods scenario, perhaps?

Elvain is perhaps/perhaps not planning on introducing Cybr's East African Paganism to SWMH, so there is no need to fiddle around with West African Paganism in this region. And as he said, the Bejan rulers are already Miaphysite in 867.

 

[EmperorTojo]

Elvain is perhaps/perhaps not planning on introducing Cybr's East African Paganism to SWMH, so there is no need to fiddle around with West African Paganism in this region.

Sorry, I did mean east african.

 

[elvain]

Sorry, I did mean east african.

So i guess this is the 'messy religious setup' in east Africa you pointed out? That the Beja provinces should have a religion which does not exist in SWMH for reasons already explained here?

The thing which was already discussed in this not very long thread as a possibility which needs to be (and is being) discussed with Cybr how to implement it.