[SWMH] East Africa - suggestions & discussion

[theKing1988]

I wonder why you put the Daw family as rulers of Makuria Elvain. Every list i can find of Makurian rulers is identical to that branch of the Azim family that are rulers of Nubia in Vanilla and Counts of Makuria in the current build of SWMH.

 

[elvain]

I wonder why you put the Daw family as rulers of Makuria Elvain. Every list i can find of Makurian rulers is identical to that branch of the Azim family that is rulers of Nubia in Vanilla and Counts of Makuria in the current build of SWMH.

That's simply only caused by my stupidity as I probably by mistake swithed those 2 and didn't really checked it. In case of Nubian rulers I didn't do any additional research and simply relied on vanilla characters...

 

[theKing1988]

To make the work easier for you guys i could share my altered files for Makuria.

I've sent them to your mail Elvain. Apparently i've hit my max on attached files or something, somehow. So i had to try your mail instead.

 

[elvain]

Thanks!

 

[cybrxkhan]

I do have a question - based on your guys' research, is the current map south enough to allow for any of the Nilotic peoples, such as where the Dinka and Shilluk are (even if its a little bit after CKII's timeframe)? Or would it be too small an area to portray, such as perhaps the Sao/Kotoko in Central Africa?

 

[elvain]

I do have a question - based on your guys' research, is the current map south enough to allow for any of the Nilotic peoples, such as where the Dinka and Shilluk are (even if its a little bit after CKII's timeframe)? Or would it be too small an area to portray, such as perhaps the Sao/Kotoko in Central Africa?

I think the map doesn't go southwards enough for them to be included. Even Shewa and Da'mot almost didn't make it to the map and only their northernmost parts are in (in fact Da'mot shouldn't be in but I included it just because of its importance).

 

[cybrxkhan]

I think the map doesn't go southwards enough for them to be included. Even Shewa and Da'mot almost didn't make it to the map and only their northernmost parts are in (in fact Da'mot shouldn't be in but I included it just because of its importance).

I just carefully compared the CKII maps to actual maps of Africa, and it seems your right - which baffles me a hit because I had compared the maps gazillions of times before yet never realized my error until now. Apparently the rivers had confused me when I was doing research on east Africa. It does appear some of the Shilluk (and perhaps a bit of Dinka) barely make it in, but only just. Does make me a bit sad as I really found the addition of the Nilotic folks cool, but oh well. I blame pi's wonky mapmaking for misleading me.

 

[LinusLinothorax]

This is a reconstruction of the territorial extension of Alodia, based on the records of Ibn Hawqal, mid 10. century. This extension was probably kept until the 13. century, then Alodia began to fade, atleast according to the rare archaeological sources we have from the post-13. century time.

 

[elvain]

thanks for the map

 

[herrmarisa]

Perhaps not really relevant to the region, but maybe Oman should have some connection to the place given its trade and maritime practices during the era.

 

[theKing1988]

Perhaps not really relevant to the region, but maybe Oman should have some connection to the place given its trade and maritime practices during the era.

As far as i'm aware the main area of Omani/Arabian focus was the Swahili coast (From Modern Day Puntland to Zanzibar), which is outside of the SWMH projection.

The only area of Arab Maritime activity as far as i'm aware of, which would be on our projection, is Dahlak (which will get a minor re-work for the upcoming Eastern Expansion) and Suakin, which weren't so much under Arab dominion as it was a Trade Post like settlement (until the Middle CK2 period)

 

[LinusLinothorax]

I have uploaded a new map to Wikipedia. It depitcs the approximate extension of the Zagwe Empire:

 

[elvain]

When we drop the Baqt (might do this today, so we can start to see observes of that in play), we could consider applying a special modifier just to the initial Beja provinces or the Bejan rulers that makes them a bit more effective. I hate to band-aid balance this way, but sometimes it does need to be done.

That sounds good. You'll see the effect of abandoning the Baqt in combination with strenghtened Beja lands and weakened Nubia.
But it of course depends on the condition that king implements the balancing changes to the map first (changes which strenghten the Beja and weaken Nubia a little)

I am also thinking about making the Western desert areas (duchy of al-Wahat) nomadic tributaries of Egypt instead of vasals of the sultan even in the Fatimid era, but that can be done anytime later, as it will only change characters and province history. It would be 1) more accurate and 2) would weaken Fatimids a little so they, without the Baqt, won't steamroll Nubia.

 

[theKing1988]

I have just re-checked your correspondences with Aasmul. He sent them to me before i started working. And you don't actually suggest any merging of provinces in Nubia Elvain. The only ones of your suggestions that i have left out are 2 Egyptian ones (1331 Bilbays and 1335 Itfih). You then mention the balance problems that these 2 merged provinces caused between Egypt and Nubia and that you could find some provinces to merge in Makuria which you never did apparently.

So i don't really see how what i left out is crucial to balance. The Issue of balance here is between Nubia and the Bejans, not Egypt and the Bejans. I still find it a bit of a backwards solution to attempt to solve this balance issue, by nerfing Nubia and by addressing the balance issues that this causes by nerfing Egypt as well, when the Bejans can just be buffed.

So for now, the plan remains to see what Ziji can do to address the balance in East Africa before doing anything further than what has already been done on the province setup front from SWMH

 

[elvain]

I have just re-checked your correspondences with Aasmul. He sent them to me before i started working. And you don't actually suggest any merging of provinces in Nubia Elvain. The only ones of your suggestions that i have left out are 2 Egyptian ones (1331 Bilbays and 1335 Itfih). You then mention the balance problems that these 2 merged provinces caused between Egypt and Nubia and that you could find some provinces to merge in Makuria which you never did apparently.

The fixes in Egypt have nothing to do with nerfing. It is pretty much re-overhaul of Egypt with changes in duchy borders, provincial borders, distribution of holdings into provinces. It fixes my previous setup and the changes done when egyptian desert provinces were randomly merged.
So you have implemented all the changes in Egypt except the removal of Bilbays and Itfih? It makes no sense at all then. Or did you just completely left out all the changes I made in Egypt for you?

So i don't really see how what i left out is crucial to balance. The Issue of balance here is between Nubia and the Bejans, not Egypt and the Bejans. I still find it a bit of a backwards solution to attempt to solve this balance issue, by nerfing Nubia and by addressing the balance issues that this causes by nerfing Egypt as well, when the Bejans can just be buffed.

You're right, it seems i didn't send the last message then where I said that the province of al-Ghazali should be emptied and its holding moved to Makuria (and one of Makuria's holdings be removed). It definitely need nerfing, we are talking about it ever since it was overhauled.
It would be great if it could be balanced with the Beja by buffing the desert areas, but it is not really possible anymore. Even the (empty)holdings I have added there are in some cases already ahistorical and there aren't even many more modern settlements in most of those areas. And even if there were, you can't just give those desert provinces 5+ holdings, that would just be crazy, and IMHO it would still not be enough if nothing is done with Nubia.
Note that now the problem is that the Beja hardly ever survive Nubian domination. Reality should be rather the oposite, that Nubia should be very vulnerable to the attacks and expansion of the peoples from the desert.

Anyway waiting for what will happen after Ziji does his changes is definitely a good choice. OTOH I don't thing that leaving those changes in Egypt would cause many problems.

 

[Ese Khan]

It would be great if it could be balanced with the Beja by buffing the desert areas, but it is not really possible anymore. Even the (empty)holdings I have added there are in some cases already ahistorical and there aren't even many more modern settlements in most of those areas. And even if there were, you can't just give those desert provinces 5+ holdings, that would just be crazy, and IMHO it would still not be enough if nothing is done with Nubia.
Note that now the problem is that the Beja hardly ever survive Nubian domination. Reality should be rather the oposite, that Nubia should be very vulnerable to the attacks and expansion of the peoples from the desert.

Rest assured that I serve as HIP's internal lobbyist for strengthening the Beja and weakening the Nubians and Ethiopians in SWMH. One thing that irks me is the de jure kingdom status of the Zagwe dynasty in post-1066 scenaios. This setup seems to guarantee that Zagwe can conquer much more area than Axum did, despite the fact that historically the Zagwe didn't control as large area as Axum did. But I'm not entirely sure if titular kingdom is a perfect solution here.

 

[elvain]

Rest assured that I serve as HIP's internal lobbyist for strengthening the Beja and weakening the Nubians and Ethiopians in SWMH. One thing that irks me is the de jure kingdom status of the Zagwe dynasty in post-1066 scenaios. This setup seems to guarantee that Zagwe can conquer much more area than Axum did, despite the fact that historically the Zagwe didn't control as large area as Axum did. But I'm not entirely sure if titular kingdom is a perfect solution here.

good to hear!
that's another issue.. it has also connection to the weakness of the Afar people there and other muslims which, frankly, I don't understand. Why don't they get help from Yemen?
I'm really disappointed how the Axum, the Nubians and even pagans in Darfur steamroll local muslims and jews in the region.