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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #93 - Military Improvements in Open Beta

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Happy Thursday to you all! This is a particularly exciting dev diary for me to write, because I finally get to reveal details on what we've been working on since before the summer months - and strap in, because it's a lot!

I want to start out by talking a bit about the Open Beta and expectation setting. As we discussed in Dev Diary #91, we will be running an extended Open Beta from Aug 28th (alongside the launch of the 1.4 update) until our final release of 1.5 in late autumn. During this time we anticipate releasing at least 2 additional updates to the Open Beta branch, coinciding with our 3-week sprint schedule.

Expectations for the first update
Launch date: Aug 28. In the initial release, new features will be in a rudimentary state, with plenty of placeholder interfaces, graphics, and missing mechanical details. Many features will be exploitable and buggy, and absolutely not balanced. Some features will be unused or underused by the AI. Core components of the game that we have not touched should continue to work, so playing a game focused on economy and politics should not be heavily affected by these changes, but be aware that military campaigns may feel unsatisfying or cumbersome. If you wish to partake in testing this update, focus on feedbacking on what additions or balance changes would make the new features fun, not on whether they feel great right now.

Expectations for the second update
Tentative launch: mid September. By this time the new features should feel a lot more mature, with bugs and missing information / graphics filled in, additional mechanical details closing exploits and providing new optimization challenges, and in general more bells and whistles available to you. While beta testing this update, in addition to the aforementioned considerations, focus on balance and UX improvements.

Expectations for the third update
Tentative launch: mid October. If all goes as planned, at this point we should be fully feature-complete for the 1.5 release. This doesn't mean everything is wrapped up and ready to go! We will spend the time between this update and the final release fixing bugs, doing balance updates, and reacting to your feedback. While testing this update you should be able to focus on how fun the game is to play with the new features.

But first a short message from our Community Manager Pelly on how the Open Beta will be run!




Hello! For those that don’t recognise me, I am the Community Manager for Victoria 3 and helped run the Open Beta for 1.2 last time.

Open Betas are a very involved process, not just from the developers, but also on the community team end too!

When the Open Beta for 1.5 starts, the old 1.2 channels will be reopened for usage by the community! Any user can access these, to make it as easy as possible to provide feedback and chat about the Beta update!

As soon as the Open Beta is live, you can access the Beta Steam branch by following these instructions:
  • Right click Victoria 3 in your steam Library, select properties.
  • Click on ‘Betas’, then in the ‘Beta Participation drop down box select the 1.5 Open Beta option, when it is live, it will appear there similar to these options:

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Now a bit about the Discord Channel structure:
  • Open-beta-news - where news about the open beta is posted, e.g. when Beta updates are announced.
  • Open-beta-changes-and-bugfixes - where changelogs for the Beta updates are posted so you know what has been changed or fixed between versions.
  • Open-beta-pelly-post - this is where I go through all the feedback and bug reports for the day. Then I list them here, with any dev responses or mark if they are duplicates. This helps everyone know that their items have been looked at and seen by the devs! This is updated every day for the previous day's issues, normally closer to 16:00 CEST!
  • Open-beta-chat - the area to chat generally about the beta updates, I still know people who really enjoyed talking here and became part of the ‘open-beta-chat’ gang!
  • Open-beta-feedback - The place to post any feedback about the updates, tags are used to distinguish the topic and if it has been looked at by devs/! Developers will be around to talk in these threads, however don’t expect an answer for every single thread!
  • Open-beta-bug-reports - We don’t normally have bug reporting on discord, as the bug reporting forums are the place to post these issues. However, during the Open Beta period it is easier if we have both feedback and bug reports on the same platform for ease of communication.

That is all from me, I hope you will enjoy the Open Beta when it starts and I see people around!

I will be there most of the time and happy to chat to y’all if you have any questions.




Now let's jump into the juicy stuff! For these features we are looking to improve the military gameplay in three broad areas: Agency, Depth, and Visuals.

By Agency we mean the degree of control the player feels they have over their military campaigns. Equally important to granting more agency is ensuring the player doesn't experience a lack of agency, for example by having more fronts to manage than Generals; uncontrollable, unpredictable front splitting; or armies that suddenly return home because their General decided an active front was an opportune place to die of old age.

Depth refers to both detail and realism. More military attributes and configuration options, armies and fleets that are composed and behave more like you'd expect from history, and more interesting decision-making during warfare.

Visuals require little introduction: it's about what we have come to affectionately refer to internally as "little dudes on the map". Seeing your armed forces in action, in transit, and being able to put a concrete location on everything (which also helps with agency).

Shared Fronts​

One issue that can rear its ugly head from time to time in the current version of Victoria 3 is the very large number of fronts you may be dealing with at any given moment. Many of you have pointed out that this leads to mandatory micromanagement of the war effort, which defeats the design goal that led us to create a more hands-off system for Victoria 3 in the first place. Reducing the number of fronts, especially in wars involving several countries on either side, to a more manageable number is a big priority for us.

The first in a one-two-punch effort to solve this problem is to make fronts adjacent between two or more allied countries into a single unified front. This can drastically reduce the number of fronts active at the start of a war.

There isn't that much more to say about shared fronts, which is a good thing. While quite complex in implementation (and we still have a few edge cases to sort out), they do what it says on the tin and are very intuitive in play. Here's an example of a single front between Bavaria and Württemburg on one side, and Hesse, Frankfurt, and Baden on the other. In the current live version this would be 4 unique fronts!
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State-based Front Movement​

The second strike in our fight against too numerous and unpredictable fronts is state-based front movement. While merging adjacent fronts is a method of controlling the initial number of fronts between known participants, the bigger problem for most players is the unpredictable front splitting and merging that happens during the course of war, as battles are won and small pocket theaters are created. This feature eliminates the uncertainty of what might happen once a battle concludes, and drastically reduces the number of "temporary" fronts that emerge (which then causes you to lose the war because you don't have another General to staff it with so your enemy stomps all over you).

It works like this: battles will be fought in a province like before, but when you win you capture a fraction of the state that province is in, not a number of provinces. Only one state can be captured at a time, and only once the whole thing has been captured will the front actually move.

As part of this we have also permitted battles to be disconnected from frontlines, so you won't be attacking only the border provinces repeatedly until you have won the entire state. In our current build the province is chosen randomly from provinces in the state, but during Open Beta we will enhance this to select from provinces deeper and deeper into the state depending on occupation already earned.
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As a battle concludes, the winning side earns a victory score - currently just a flat value, but this will eventually be changed to be conditional on the size of the victory. This victory score is allocated towards gaining or clearing occupation in states adjacent to the front, depending on the winning side; defenders will only clear occupation while attackers will clear some from their own states (if any) and gain some in the state they attacked.

In the current version of Victoria 3, the number of provinces gained on winning a battle are dependent on the size of the win, the stats of the advancing General, and some randomness within a min-max range. With 1.5, the amount of occupation gained in a state from a battle is dependent instead on a comparison between the victory score and the "occupation cost" of the state(s) in question. The occupation cost is determined by a number of factors:
  • State population
  • Amount of provinces with difficult terrain
  • Number of mobilized battalions left standing in the defender's theater compared to the size of the theater

Both victory score and occupation cost are broken down in the UI and fully scriptable/moddable. We intend on tweaking both during the Open Beta phase heavily in response to your feedback, to make sure states that are supposed to be hard to take are actually more challenging to conquer (without it becoming a slog) while depopulated savannahs are easier to march across.

What we have found in testing this feature is that in addition to controlling the sudden appearance of new fronts, this new behavior also makes it very easy to determine whether you're in control of a particular wargoal. In the future we hope to add new mechanics tied into this feature, such as economic exploitation of states occupied during war.

An example of the new outcome of battle and the occupation cost breakdown. In this case Piratini should have gotten to plant their flags across 87% of the state, but some advanced math (a.k.a. bug) as described by this screenshot only granted 10% - guess it's back to the code mines for me!
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Speaking of flags! While it won't be in the initial Open Beta build, this is one way we plan on visualizing partial state occupation despite the frontline itself not moving, in addition to shading the terrain itself.
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While state-based front movement is primarily a way to control and predict the number of fronts that emerge during a war, this feature is also something we're looking to expand on in the future by tying state occupation tighter into other game mechanics, like economics and military supply.

I'll close this section out by saying that while multiple simultaneous battles per front won't be in the initial beta release (should be coming in the 1st or 2nd update), the way we plan to implement and balance them is to only allow 1 battle / front / state at a time. This means you would only potentially benefit from having more Generals than your enemy on particularly long fronts, and even then only if you outnumber their defending troops. This is however an area we are actively going to solicit feedback on, and you'll hear more about it in future dev diaries.

Military Formations​

This feature has a number of sub-features that I'll go into in some detail, but first a bit of background to what this is and why we're doing it.

Having Generals and Admirals as the leaders of your armed forces is great both for flavor and for the knock-on effects it can have on the political system, but in retrospect characters are simultaneously too static and too ephemeral to serve as good containers of military units for a player to control. Commanders are meant to have names, traits, and faces so you can remember them, and if you have too many of them you can't tell them apart. But limiting the number of them you can maintain simultaneously restricts your ability to fine-tune your military and control who goes where, which can be frustrating (especially when you have to assign Generals to an indeterminate number of fronts!)

But, let's say we put gameplay over narrative concerns about identity uniqueness and removed the cap. Then we run into the issue of having to give every one of them a unique order every time we want them to go somewhere or do something different. This is very annoying when you just want everyone to go defend your single frontline.

To make things worse, if one of them kicks the bucket due to old age or gets suddenly ripped away due to some special event, your entire military campaign might be irrevocably disrupted in an instant! While we made an initial pass to address this issue in 1.3 with Field Promotion of new commanders, having a non-character container for your armed forces removes this problem altogether - your units will remain in place, and you can assign or recruit a new commander to lead them as you wish.

Another issue with the current system is that Buildings act as your only main vector for customizing your military. While this makes sense to model the economic and population impact your armed forces have, it can be a cumbersome and unintuitive way of constructing a diverse and capable military.

Military Formations tackles the issue of commanders being simultaneously too static and too ephemeral by providing a container for both commanders (generals or admirals, depending on formation type) as well as combat units (battalions / flotillas). You can create as many Formations as you want - with or without commanders, each with as many commanders as you like, and you can move both units and commanders between formations at will.

The design intent here is to provide you with a kind of entity - that's programmer-speak for thingamajig - that is more customizable to your own needs for agency than commanders are. These needs may vary a lot depending on what kind of country you're playing, where in the world you are, and what kinds of wars you happen to get yourself into. It also gives us a better platform for customization - adding depth - than commanders and buildings are, which we will see below. And finally, facets we're including with formations such as concrete movement and unit types give us a lot more opportunities to visually represent your military on the map and in the UI. So let's get into some more details!

Combat Unit Types​

In addition to recruiting commanders into Military Formations (which works similarly to how it currently does in the live version) you can also recruit specific unit types and mix and match to your heart's desire. If you're playing a single-state country and want to recruit 5 Skirmish and 10 Line Infantry, you cannot do so in the current version of the game since unit type is governed by Production Method and all levels of a building must have the same methods. But in 1.5 you can do just that in a Formation, and the Barracks that get constructed "around" those units as a result will maintain the mix.

This works by creating the units inside the scope of the Military Formation itself, not by expanding buildings directly. That follows our UX design vision for this feature: rather than configuring and maintaining your military through an awkward mix of interactions with buildings and characters, all interactions with your military are done through formations first and foremost, with characters and buildings appearing around the formations as supporting entities to ensure existing game mechanics continue to function.

In addition to the different types of infantry units, we are also adding additional groups of units with different properties: infantry, artillery, and cavalry on the army side; as well as light ships, capital ships, and support ships for the navy. For the final release, most or all of these will have unique illustrations/icons; right now they all have the same placeholder icon.
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Units constructed in this way will be upgradeable between types (though not for the first Open Beta release) but only in certain cases: you will be able to upgrade your Ship-of-the-Line to Ironclads, as was often done historically, but you cannot upgrade your Ironclads to a different ship class like Battleships.

We're very interested in hearing your feedback on the specific units we're adding into the Open Beta, how they're grouped and balanced, and how managing them in the UI feels!

Mobilization Options​

I've always been happier with the current mobilization mechanics in theory than in practice. I like the increased demand on my industry during wartime and how that changes my economy (and my pops' economy). I also appreciate that I can't cheese the game by cranking down my consumption of military goods to zero in peacetime and turn it up to max when I'm at war, and that increased consumption is handled automatically as I mobilize a General into activity. I enjoy the tough decisions I sometimes have to make about whether I can truly afford to mobilize another General, or if my currently mobilized forces should be able to mop up the opposition in time.

What I don't like about it is how hard it is to balance, both as a designer and player, since it only increases the quantity of goods they're already consuming and therefore can only do so in a quantity that doesn't cause immediate shortages in your economy. Having to maintain mandatory unprofitable import trade routes for guns & ammo with potential elasticity to ensure I can prosecute my future wars sounds cool but can feel a bit much in practice sometimes.

Mobilization Options permit you to customize what goods you want to give your battalions when they're out active soldiering, with powerful effects providing trade-offs for the increased costs. Sometimes those goods are military hardware, other times they're just better rations or fancier uniforms. Adding consumer goods as a possible cost to mobilization also means a stronger impact on the civilian population during the war effort, which is both realistic and a great game dynamic.

Mobilization Options (typically) impose a cost in goods per unit in a Formation, which is applied to that unit's building, in exchange for an effect on all units. Both cost and effect are applied only when mobilized, and Mobilization Options can be toggled on or off only while the Formation is demobilized.

This is the list of Mobilization Options we will launch with the initial Open Beta release (fully unlocked, of course), but it's neither finalized nor well-balanced. Some of the options may even end up as new unit types instead (or in addition to) for example. We will be actively seeking feedback on what other options you want to see, and rework the UI to allow us to fit more options. Icons are currently borrowed from other areas of the game and are particularly WIP.
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Mobilization Options don't have to be just about goods, it can also just be toggles on how you want this Formation to behave. For example, Forced March causes the Formation to move faster but at a cost of increased morale loss (a penalty which could be countered by Luxurious Supplies, if desired). Rail Transport is mutually exclusive with Forced March, doesn't cause morale loss, but requires both the Railway tech and Transportation goods.

The way we see Mobilization Options used is as toggles that can be set prior to active warfare, taking properties like market conditions, commander traits, and combat unit mix into account. You could customize a small, fast formation of elite crack troops or a giant army of cheap irregulars forced to march on an empty stomach, depending on your strengths as a nation and who you're likely to be fighting against.

Early Demobilization​

While we initially added early demobilization with 1.3.6, it was a little bit hacky: it operated as a character interaction rather than a military command, and only applied a flat cost to a country in response to the goods cost prior to demobilization instead of incurring actual consumption.

We have now made it possible to demobilize armies during active warfare if desired. When this happens, the army will first have to travel home, and will then spend 4 months in demobilization (exact value very much subject to feedback) where mobilization supply cost will be gradually decreased over the duration. Unlike the current live implementation on Generals, these goods will be properly consumed in the interim so your industries and trade routes don't immediately collapse with nothing to gain for it.

Early demobilization can also be a little more relevant in the Open Beta due to Mobilization Options, in case those options you provided ended up a little too costly over the course of the war and you want to return home for reconfiguration.
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Station at HQ​

Military Formations, both armies and fleets, are initially created in an HQ but do not need to stay there. You can re-station a Military Formation at an HQ - even a temporary one you have established during the course of the war on allied or occupied territory - if you're willing to pay the increased supply cost for doing so depending on where your combat units are actually from (once we get around to adding that increased supply cost that is - until then, re-station away!).

You can station a fleet in any coastal HQ. Later during the Open Beta we will require an active Naval Base to exist in order to station your fleet there.
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This also means if you want to move an army to proactively defend against an impending naval invasion, you can do so (as long as you're quick about it!)
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Concrete Location​

Another thing we have been dissatisfied with is the lack of a tangible location for your armed forces. In the current live version, Generals and Admirals are either at the HQ they're recruited into or on a mission somewhere, depending on their current order. But when a commander moves somewhere in response to their order changing, they are put into a kind of limbo while they are moving to a new location (typically a front, with naval movement being more abstracted as an "execution time") with the travel time only visualized as a countdown in the UI.

In the Open Beta, Formations will always have a concrete on-map location, so you can track their real-time movement between locations more easily. Generals and Admirals no longer have their own independent locations as this is inferred by their Formation, but Generals can autonomously spread out across fronts to visually indicate what state they are primarily defending and/or attacking.

For the first Open Beta release, movement will be tracked only in straight lines. Here we see an army moving first from the Maranhão Pará Front, then towards the Maranhão Rio Grande do Sul Front, and finally back towards its HQ in Rio de Janeiro when it's demobilized.
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For upcoming Open Beta releases, formations will pathfind across roads, railways, and sea lanes (or sea lanes only for fleets, for obvious reasons) and travel along those to their destination. Here we see the path taken by an army traveling from Örebro, Sweden to Tampa, Florida. The short skip over English territory visualized here is because the pathfinder currently does not take either military access or spline travel time into account but just travel length; once we've completed our work on the pathfinder it should still be possible for armies to disembark/traverse land/re-embark if the time savings makes it worth it, but it will generally be avoided.
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Transferring Commanders and Units between Formations​

Of course there will be moments where you would like to split, merge, or transfer commanders and units between two formations of the same type. Even with shared fronts and state-based occupation, there may be instances where a new front is created in an area where you already have an army - for example, if you join a totally separate war while you already have another military engagement.

This can be easily done in the field if you have a single formation with multiple commanders. You can right-click one of those commanders and choose to "Split" it off into a new formation, which will cause them to quickly take a number of representative units in proportion to their own Command Limit and form a new formation with the same properties and in the same place.

You can tune this more precisely if you like by opening a Transfer popup, where you can select the exact commanders and units you want to move, select a target formation (which could be a brand new one), and execute the transfer. If the target formation is not in the same location as the origin, a temporary formation will be created that automatically travels to the destination where it will automatically merge with the target.

In-game mockups of what the Transfer popup will look like. We're hard at work trying to get this implemented for the first Open Beta release but it might not be fully functional until the second release, in September. We're also considering other potential enhancements to this, such as a double-sided panel where you can transfer Commanders and units back and forth between two formations.
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Name and Icon customization​

When a formation is first created it gets a name selected based on your primary culture, type, and how many other formations you have of that type. You can change that name to your liking, to help you remember what you've designed it for or just for flavor and immersion.

In subsequent releases of the Open Beta you will also be able to customize the symbol and color of the formation icon, making it even easier to identify which formation is traveling across the map or deploys across a front.

A very work-in-progress screenshot of the formation appearance customization popup. The "pattern" section will provide a list of possible unique icons while the "color" section will contain a palette suitable for the formation type.
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Revised Naval Invasions​

Naval Invasions have also been revised to accommodate the new state-based occupation mechanics and improve the UX in managing naval invasions. Naval Invasion can be initiated either from a formation or the Military Lens. Like in the current version of the game you target a state, but as a follow-up step you then get the option to add the formation(s) to be involved in the invasion. During the Open Beta we will enhance this panel with more information to help inform you on the likelihood of success, such as exposing information about landing penalties and the like.

In the initial Open Beta release, only one formation of each kind can be assigned to a naval invasion. In upcoming releases you will be able to assign multiple formations of each kind.
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As you confirm the naval invasion, the formations selected will travel to the sea node just off the coast of the targeted state. When they have both arrived, landing battles will commence. A proper front (with armies assigned to that front) will not be created until the state is fully occupied. When this happens the naval invasion has been concluded.

In the interim, the supporting fleet may be attacked by enemy fleets. If any of these naval battles are lost, the naval invasion will fail and both formations will return home. If a naval battle is won but heavy ship casualties are taken, landing battles will take higher penalties until the fleet can be reinforced. During the Open Beta we will also look into adding more formations to a naval invasion already in progress.

Aside from closing some exploits relating to war exhaustion, this revision will make naval invasions a much more serious affair that requires naval dominance. We will be actively seeking feedback during the Open Beta to ensure executing and defending against naval invasions is more fun and interesting than it is in the currently live version.

I don't know about you but I can't wait to see these little guys in action!
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Frontline Graphics​

While most of the graphical enhancements will be appearing across the Open Beta period's two updates, we already have a first iteration of frontline graphics functional in the current development build.

In this screenshot, the frontline graphics system is using the previous battle graphics and additional VFX as placeholder for the assets we are currently producing.
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You can even see it from space!
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Frontline graphics will represent the current formations at the front, with models being selected based on unit type, culture, tech, and mobilization options active. Specific formations, and even specific Generals, will have a distinct location on the frontline, with "their" units organized in their vicinity.

Concept art of our visual target for the final frontline graphics. One of these dioramas will be assembled dynamically based on formation composition and placed in each province along the front (possibly with some provinces omitted if the front is particularly long and the formations particularly small, to avoid miscommunication about the size of an army).
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We are currently experimenting with our approach to animation and applying VFX to these models. It would not be appropriate for all units along a front to be animated at all times, since they aren't necessarily engaged in active warfare, so we will likely trigger animations on and off at certain intervals. This approach would also help with graphics performance.

We have a lot more WIP eyecandy to show you, but I'll leave that for future dev diaries!

What we broke :(

As a result of a lot of revisions, a few features have been disconnected from the game to be reworked during the Open Beta period. If you intend on evaluating the Open Beta you should be aware of these omissions and how we intend on addressing them in the updates.

Conscription​

Conscripts no longer make sense as raised on a state-by-state basis, since that makes it hard to determine which army they should belong to. Since we also have distinct unit types not tied to Production Methods, we would also need to know the nature of the conscripts that need to be raised.

The way we intend to solve this is by allowing players to assign conscripts of particular types to their formation, much like you build regular units. This will result in Conscription Centers being built as usual in specific states, but will not automatically raise those conscripts - that will be a toggle on the formation itself. Once formations start raising conscripts, the Conscription Centers will start staffing up as usual, up to the conscription percentage limit imposed by the population of the state, your Laws, Technologies, etc.

Putting conscripts on formation level also means you will be able to demobilize conscripts early, using the same Early Demobilization mechanics as described above.

Naval Warfare (other than naval invasions)​

Naval Warfare is scheduled to be reworked to support the new mechanics around concrete locations. This means that all actions you perform with your fleets will be based around sea nodes, not more abstract concepts like HQs or trade routes. If you are raiding convoys in a sea node, you can only be intercepted by other nearby fleets; if you want to defend against a naval invasion, you have to sail your fleet over to that naval invasion.

To account for the issues that may arise from moving fleets around to intercept each other, we're considering a number of solutions including:
  • Fleet Range: the ability for a fleet to be active also in adjacent sea zones, possibly at a reduced interception effectiveness or at a variable range determined by tech or unit type
  • Limited Fog-of-War: obscuring your enemy's positions and actions and only revealing them under certain conditions (Battleship board game style)
  • UI alerts and other visual indicators
  • Some manner of fleet automation, like patrol routes

This is an area we expect to do a lot of work in during the Open Beta, and will probably require a dedicated dev diary later on.

Conclusion​

As you can see, we've been quite busy! There's still a lot of work to be done, but we're all very happy to be addressing so many high-frequency community concerns in the context of a free update, and the new military mechanics already feel like a huge upgrade even in this immature state. With your direct input during the Open Beta period, on these as well as other features - like the new Companies and several other tweaks and improvements, which will be outlined in upcoming dev diaries - I have no doubt that the 1.5 update will bring Victoria 3 to new heights!

Next week we will hear more exciting stuff from our Art Director Max, this time about what to expect from the new Art Pack: Dawn of Wonder! After that we will move to a dev diary schedule of once every three weeks, to coincide with our sprint schedule and Open Beta update releases. This is to ensure that all members of the team are hyper-focused on the upcoming beta build itself and have time to communicate with you all on the Open Beta channel on the Discord server. See you there!
 
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I think what happened in this case was similar to what happened with early versions of HOI IV. The previous entry in the series was justifiably criticized for being excessively complicated, so the devs decided to streamline things, but over-corrected and wound up stripping out things that people actually wanted (example here being completely removing espionage and fuel for HOI IV).
That said, I think calling the game "incomplete" is a bit too harsh and hyperbolic. IMO an "incomplete" game would be something like "no sound", or "has no multiplayer capability even though the box says multiplayer". Some of the design decisions may have sounded better on paper than they worked in practice, but let's not act like this is equivalent to something like Big Rigs or Raven's Cry.
Who ever called Vic2 warfare system "excessively complicated"? It is simpler than any other actively played Paradox GSG.
 
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Who ever called Vic2 warfare system "excessively complicated"? It is simpler than any other actively played Paradox GSG.
Well, I was moreso referring to Victoria II in general. Also, I would actually argue that Europa Universalis has the simplest warfare system, with Victoria in second.
 
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Well, I was moreso referring to Victoria II in general. Also, I would actually argue that Europa Universalis has the simplest warfare system, with Victoria in second.
You sure? Victoria 3 seems the most simple with CK3 being the second most simple. In EU4 and Victoria 2 you can customize compositions (I guess you can in Victoria 3 but its super janky), there forts, weather modifiers, veterancy, officer stat that dictates quality of officers I think in Vic2.

With this upcoming update for Victoria 3, we might get some more depth. I may not frustrate myself every time I start a war in this game.
 
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Awesome changes, happy to see the Naval Invasion meta (cheese) is facing a sudden retirement and is being replaced by a more capable heir, there are two points I would like to focus:

1. Pertaining to the new naval invasion system, the idea of having to establish a successful beach head (AKA capturing the State upon which you land) is awesome, so is the possibility of sending further formations to reinforce the landing force, having to preserve naval superiority in the area while you do so is the chef's kiss, however, there's one detail that hasn't been mentioned: will it be possible for an ally of the defender to join the defending force? as of the current build, only the invaded country's units can defend, leading to interesting scenarios in which you can defeat way larger enemies by simply going after the small war leader, invading him and leaving AI incapable of actually leveraging his numerical superiority, the way I see it there's two ways to counter this, one, if both the main defender and its ally are connected by land, the ally can simply send formations through land to reinforce the defense of the landing zone, two, if the main defender and its ally are separated by sea, the ally must manage to get reinforcements into a non-blockaded port first, in case his navy isn't simply strong enough to kill the invader's navy, which leads to the possibility of intercepting the enemy reinforcements by sea before they bring help to the defender. Not sure if this would be the exact way to implement it, but it's still something I wanted to share.

2. The concept art for the frontline graphics is beatiful, looks a lot like the models used in wargames by General Staff in the 19th century, it's both gorgeous and fits the period and theme of the game perfectly, can't wait to see them in their final version.

Bottomline, excellent job, looks fantastic and promising. Love it.
 
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What do you mean by that ?
I meant that this thread is an example of a constructive discussion where people discuss what they like, what they don't like, and what they would like to see added/removed going forward. Whereas discussions that start from the assumptions that a game is "broken", "incomplete", etc. in my experience usually just devolve into angry rants.
 
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Apologies if this is too reactionary, but I still think Victoria 2's system, which HPM leant even more into, which was that the player broadly directed the (largely useless) scientific development of the nation, but that (more powerful) technologies were both chance-driven and dependent on the state of the nation (labour shortages driving mechanisation development, tanks requiring a pitched trench battle) and other technological and scientific discoveries is my favourite in any videogame ever, and acts as a soft brake on the kind of historical foresight that historical GSGs can suffer from. I'd be overjoyed if V3 reconstructed its tech system to be more like V2's.

The Vic2 Tech System is still one of the best ever invented. I really dont understand why they diverted so far from a excelent system.
 
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Very good points about techs, victory not being only linked to guns and balance issue.

- About techs : some posters here spoke about Stellaris & Vic2 tech systems.
These are quite good at randomizing things, and somewhat mitigating the "rush" syndrom.

One can imagine a system where you could "focus" your efforts on a tech tree, unlocking tier... But having to wait for random inventions to trigger (Vic2 style) was IMO a great system.
I remember raging because for years I had discovered breech loaders and still hadn't unlocked them by inventions. In retrospect, it was a nice gameplay move : I, as a player, was still dependent on my Pops' inventing things -little bit of RP here, no RNG to see. Move along-

- Wizz answers about gameplay and some other posters inputs are great too.
Thinking about it... It's actually quite great to have new infantry PM linked to non-gun techs.
Indeed, you need new guns but also new mindsets. Let's have a look at late 2nd Empire army : the army was quite hostile regarding newer guns because of increased costs and because the higher ups thought "those soldiers will just shoot away all their bullets like there is no tomorrow". It took Napoleon III direct intervention to impose the Chassepot rifle. And do not get me started on the whole French political spectrum refusing to change the uniform (despite modern ones being already designed) during the 1900's-1910's.
So, to emulate this political/ideological/mentality side of things, having new PMs also linked to organisation/HQ techs is interesting... if it is also linked to guns, dear Devs ;)

And finally, perhaps some downside to reform could be envisionned : like a negative impact on military perfomance for some time -(kinda like EU4 drop in morale when switching between units) and some impact on military pops and IG.
Oh, or add a "general staff" institution. :)
 
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So does the concrete location of military formations matter only when moving onto a front, or does it matter where on the front the formation is? Because that's the big thing with the warfare system and unless I missed something it does not seem to be mentioned at all, which makes me afraid that generals can still just teleport from Virginia to Utah or from the Baltic to Ukraine, just with a nice graphic this time.


Sounds like a incredibly easy to abuse system. Taking a hit to bureaucracy or a bunch of lame-duck generals on top of the good ones to boost IG I want to be powerful is an absolute no brainier to a player. The current system of forcing the player to possibly choose between IG I want vs. the traits I want is good, it should not be overhauled for some fake idea of "choice" (which is no choice at all when there is a single optimal way to do things). What the current system needs is more triggers based on army laws and which IGs are powerful etc.
except, that the current system allows you to do exactly that, one just needs to keep hiring and firing generlas until they get the one with the IG's they want.
my interie suggestion was literally prompted after i pointed out the fact, that doing so is fairly annoying due to unnecessary amount of clicking, hence the whole point of "the generals of the IG you want are bad" hence why one might not actually want to do it, rather then the current system where not doing it is essentially suboptimal all the time.
 
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Looks massive.
If I start a game with this open beta at launch, should I expect to be able to keep playing this saved game through the three beta updates and the final launch?
Of course I'm not asking for an absolute guarantee that it will work, and even less that it should work smoothly, but how likely is to be reasonably doable? How much effort will you put into making this save-compatible?
 
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Looks massive.
If I start a game with this open beta at launch, should I expect to be able to keep playing this saved game through the three beta updates and the final launch?
Of course I'm not asking for an absolute guarantee that it will work, and even less that it should work smoothly, but how likely is to be reasonably doable? How much effort will you put into making this save-compatible?
We try not to break saves throughout the beta releases but no hard guarantee. If it requires too much work then that time will be better spent on the new features instead.
 
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When Armys move trough states, will they use infrastructer and or consume public transportation? Might be neat for countries who offer another country the right to go trough to make some money by selling tickets.
 
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A nice idea in my opinion would be to name the front after the most powerful contenders directly bordering each other on the two sides.

So for example, in a WW1 scenario the Western Front would be named "Germany-France Front" or something of that effect, even though British, Belgian, Indian, African and later American troops are present there in huge numbers. The clearly shows exactly what it is - the main war frontier between powers of Germany and France. Southern front of WW1 wouild be named Austrian-Italian Front, and the other one Austrian-Serbian Front, even though a player controlling Germany might be hypothetically doing all the heavy lifting by sending most of the soldiers. Same goes with Germany-Russia Front for the Eastern Front of the same WW1 scenario - we know there is Austria and technically the war between them and Russia started first, but Germany joins up pretty much immediately at the start with the current game mechanics.

That way, ACW gets American or Union-Confederate Front named as its main war frontier, and American-Mexican Front when they attack Mexico a decade before that. Even if UK or France gets involved on a side and brings in a giant army (which shouldn't really be possible until late game, but hey, different topic), it will remain consistently named.

Clear and consistent enough in my opinion.

In case of naval invasions where no borders are present, I am less sure, but something similar should happen IMO...maybe with names based on whoever invaded first, or with the most powerful army? So First Sino-Japanese War would have Japanese-Korean Front because the Japanese have to land in Korea via sea. Or with Crimean War where both UK and France try to bring huge armies into Russia via sea. Or when Britain ships and lands Indians in Iraq against Ottomans, and so on. I am not sure, but you get the idea.

In case of revolutions and civil wars, similar philosophy applies.
Sounds great.

There is one issue that I am seeing what if you have two disparate fronts where the same two countries are on both sides? Lets say a revolution where the center of the nation splits from the east and west? or say that USA owns Central America directly and is at war with Mexico?
 
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Sounds great.

There is one issue that I am seeing what if you have two disparate fronts where the same two countries are on both sides? Lets say a revolution where the center of the nation splits from the east and west? or say that USA owns Central America directly and is at war with Mexico?
Could use an ordinal or cartographical reference as a backup - the 1st American-Mexican Front, the Southern Revolutionary front...
 
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