Stellaris Dev Diary #201: Galactic Imperium

[Nawolith]

Actually. I'm going to disagree here.

If you're the emperor to be and you're watching the days tick by.... you've got the votes, you're going to be emperor! But who will stay?
If you're in a level 5 federation and you can see that there's three days until Empire Day, who's going to stay in the federation and leave the galactic community?

Do you stay in the new empire or go it alone and lose all those nice bonuses you've helped build as part of the community?

There's a lot of tension that you're losing going down the path which robs the player of agency.

If you stay in the empire and try to bring it down from within, possibly working underhanded with those who have left it's no less exciting.
If you're emperor of the new mighty galactic empire, the only AI federations likely to go there own way are unlikely to be small. So yes, you're emperor, but you're also trying to keep your imperial authority high while bringing others back into the fold.

There's also a whole gameplay/narrative experience of "The Federation which wouldn't submit" fighting Overwhelming Odds^tm against your former galactic community.

Wait, can't you just leave the Empire before formation via leaving the GC?

 

[sillyrobot]

Wait, can't you just leave the Empire before formation via leaving the GC?

Not it is called to an unexpected emergency vote/declaration. Note the unexpected part.

 

[Primarch Victus]

You're the fool actually. Why is the evil roleplay an act and the good roleplay the lack of an act? There's obviously more needed here. We have galactic empire and galactic crisis for the people roleplaying space fascism in all its flavours. Time for galactic federation for the rest of us.

You are the real fool here, troll. If I am roleplaying as the ruler of a egalitarian empire, it makes perfect sense to be voted as Custodian, save the galaxy and let the post as soon as the galaxy is safe -- that is what the any ruler of a egalitarian polity would do if he/she was elected as Custodian! Now, if you are roleplaying as the ruler of a Militaristic/Authoritarian society -- be it Fanatical or not, it makes far more sense to use the Crysis to become the emperor of a galaxy-wide empire. It's all about roleplay! and roleplay is something that the vast majority of Stellaris player base does -- but you? I doubt that you ever played Stellaris.

 

[RabbaDooDabba]

Wait, can't you just leave the Empire before formation via leaving the GC?

Yes, just pay a bit attention. While the Custodian can declare that resolution an emergency, it can only be prematurely ended after it passes half of it's debating time, that should still leave you enough time to leave the GC, if you have the influence, of course.

 

[Verx90]

Yes, just pay a bit attention. While the Custodian can declare that resolution an emergency, it can only be prematurely ended after it passes half of it's debating time, that should still leave you enough time to leave the GC, if you have the influence, of course.

but... why should you ? ...

i mean, yes, it may not feel right if you are egalitarian or you don't like the emperor ... but exiting the GC would remove your vote and you as potential rebel of the empire.

at the same time, you get a malus to diplo and lose all GC bonuses( and debuff i guess) and alow them to actualy target you for a crusade as an empire external at the GC.



even if it is a PVP game , you may prefer to remain inside the GC and accept a period where you can't declare war on the emperor - the emperor can't declare war on you ; more than litteraly giving him full control by leaving.

i realy hope the AI will be more competitive ( or easyer to make AI mod to enchant it) so there can be an AI emperor to rebel against

 

[RabbaDooDabba]

but... why should you ? ...

i mean, yes, it may not feel right if you are egalitarian or you don't like the emperor ... but exiting the GC would remove your vote and you as potential rebel of the empire.

at the same time, you get a malus to diplo and lose all GC bonuses( and debuff i guess) and alow them to actualy target you for a crusade as an empire external at the GC.



even if it is a PVP game , you may prefer to remain inside the GC and accept a period where you can't declare war on the emperor - the emperor can't declare war on you ; more than litteraly giving him full control by leaving.

i realy hope the AI will be more competitive ( or easyer to make AI mod to enchant it) so there can be an AI emperor to rebel against

It was not a question of 'should you leave ?' and more of 'could you leave ?'.

I too think it is better to rebel from the inside than to straight up leave... First, I like the rebel mechanics showed so far and second, prematurely leaving could lead to a cascade-effect where you basically guarante the formation of the Galactic Imperium.
I think the first step for the Rebels-to-be would be a humiliation war against the Custodian thereby cutting down the diplomatic weight of said Custodian in the ongoing debate as soon as the resolution comes up. Or a council member vetos the resolution, tries to denounce supporting members of the Custodian's "party of sympathisers" so to speak, using espionage to extort favours... there are quite a few options one can take before the resolution comes to a conclusion.

 

[SuperGeek89]

It seems like people are confusing egalitarianism with self determination. Nothing says egalitarians have to respect the sovereignty of other nations, especially if that other nation viewed as a tyrannical. Egalitarians care that the people are free and equal and don't necessarily believe that every government/society has the right to exist. Truly fanatical egalitarians could justify the creation of a galaxy spanning republic/federation as the only way to guarantee that every species is free and equal.

You are the real fool here, troll. If I am roleplaying as the ruler of a egalitarian empire, it makes perfect sense to be voted as Custodian, save the galaxy and let the post as soon as the galaxy is safe -- that is what the any ruler of a egalitarian polity would do if he/she was elected as Custodian!

It also makes sense for an egalitarian polity, especially a xenophilic one, to use the unprecedented moment of unity in the aftermath of defeating a galactic threat to push for galaxy wide democratic reforms. It all comes down to what kind of egalitarian you chose to play as. Playing as and egalitarian that only cares if your society is free and democratic is a valid role play, but its also valid to role play as a society that seeks to spread democracy, either by diplomacy or force, to the entire galaxy.

I understand why there's no option to create a galactic republic/federation (not as mechanically fun, not the theme of the expansion), but sitting asserting that the only way to "properly" play as egalitarian Custodian is to simply give up power and let an unprecedented opportunity to create a galaxy spanning democracy pass you by is a bit unfair.

 

[TrotBot]

It seems like people are confusing egalitarianism with self determination. Nothing says egalitarians have to respect the sovereignty of other nations, especially if that other nation viewed as a tyrannical. Egalitarians care that the people are free and equal and don't necessarily believe that every government/society has the right to exist. Truly fanatical egalitarians could justify the creation of a galaxy spanning republic/federation as the only way to guarantee that every species is free and equal.

It also makes sense for an egalitarian polity, especially a xenophilic one, to use the unprecedented moment of unity in the aftermath of defeating a galactic threat to push for galaxy wide democratic reforms. It all comes down to what kind of egalitarian you chose to play as. Playing as and egalitarian that only cares if your society is free and democratic is a valid role play, but its also valid to role play as a society that seeks to spread democracy, either by diplomacy or force, to the entire galaxy.

I understand why there's no option to create a galactic republic/federation (not as mechanically fun, not the theme of the expansion), but sitting asserting that the only way to "properly" play as egalitarian Custodian is to simply give up power and let an unprecedented opportunity to create a galaxy spanning democracy is a bit unfair.

seriously, i don't understand why all of these people are suddenly pretending universal egalitarian liberation war has not been a part of stellaris for ages. it's only natural that I would want a fleshed out mechanic for it, because liberation wars are crap. they require just as much military victory as total annexation, without the benefits. neither the custodian (or custodian that resigns), nor the empire, help flesh that out. the rebellion is interesting as a mechanic but it's not at all the same.

 

[Primarch Victus]

It seems like people are confusing egalitarianism with self determination. Nothing says egalitarians have to respect the sovereignty of other nations, especially if that other nation viewed as a tyrannical. Egalitarians care that the people are free and equal and don't necessarily believe that every government/society has the right to exist. Truly fanatical egalitarians could justify the creation of a galaxy spanning republic/federation as the only way to guarantee that every species is free and equal.

It also makes sense for an egalitarian polity, especially a xenophilic one, to use the unprecedented moment of unity in the aftermath of defeating a galactic threat to push for galaxy wide democratic reforms. It all comes down to what kind of egalitarian you chose to play as. Playing as and egalitarian that only cares if your society is free and democratic is a valid role play, but its also valid to role play as a society that seeks to spread democracy, either by diplomacy or force, to the entire galaxy.

I understand why there's no option to create a galactic republic/federation (not as mechanically fun, not the theme of the expansion), but sitting asserting that the only way to "properly" play as egalitarian Custodian is to simply give up power and let an unprecedented opportunity to create a galaxy spanning democracy is a bit unfair.

Well, I am forced to agree with your point. Personally, I would love to see a gameplay mechanic that let me turn the Galactic Empire into something akin to the Systems Commonwealth from Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda. But unfortunately, such mechanic did not exist -- yet.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

@Eladrin @Alfray Stryke @grekulf

I've been trying to get a pair of short questions about the Imperium answered (if possible) for a few weeks and haven't been able to get it answered yet. If one of you could be so kind, could you (or someone else from PDX) let me know one or both questions' answers?

1.). Is the vassalization diplomatic option still available to the Galactic Emperor if they meet all other requirements? If so, I might love to use the position to vassalize + integrate a bunch of the galaxy.

2.) What is the naval capacity limit on the Imperial Armada?

 

[Verx90]

It seems like people are confusing egalitarianism with self determination. Nothing says egalitarians have to respect the sovereignty of other nations, especially if that other nation viewed as a tyrannical. Egalitarians care that the people are free and equal and don't necessarily believe that every government/society has the right to exist. Truly fanatical egalitarians could justify the creation of a galaxy spanning republic/federation as the only way to guarantee that every species is free and equal.

It also makes sense for an egalitarian polity, especially a xenophilic one, to use the unprecedented moment of unity in the aftermath of defeating a galactic threat to push for galaxy wide democratic reforms. It all comes down to what kind of egalitarian you chose to play as. Playing as and egalitarian that only cares if your society is free and democratic is a valid role play, but its also valid to role play as a society that seeks to spread democracy, either by diplomacy or force, to the entire galaxy.

I understand why there's no option to create a galactic republic/federation (not as mechanically fun, not the theme of the expansion), but sitting asserting that the only way to "properly" play as egalitarian Custodian is to simply give up power and let an unprecedented opportunity to create a galaxy spanning democracy pass you by is a bit unfair.

Ah ? You are joining xenophiles and egalitarians now ...


Egalitarian is the the ethic that wish to see evryone is equal , for the species that are considerated as such .

You can be an egalitarian xenophobic that doesnt care about other races equality .

Forming a GC federation is a thing realy xenophile , not egalitarian .
Changing war philosofy or war laws inside the GC is pacifist .

What is an egalitarian action is pushing for resolve that push for equality of treathment of the pops (already there) , on an intergalatic scale , it would be to force a democracy gov to the empires inside the GC .

An egalitarian empire that is fanatic , would probably be a custodian and removing the end term .

Actualy , the empire is the resolve that autoritharian missed from the GC .

 

[SuperGeek89]

Ah ? You are joining xenophiles and egalitarians now ...

No I'm not, but it is possible to be both egalitarian AND a xenophile. In fact every egalitarian empire in the game will have at least one other modifying ethic meaning there is no pure egalitarian society in game.

Egalitarian is the the ethic that wish to see evryone is equal , for the species that are considerated as such .

You can be an egalitarian xenophobic that doesnt care about other races equality .

Yes and I covered that with this statement.

Playing as and egalitarian that only cares if your society is free and democratic is a valid role play

Also an egalitarian who doesn't care about other species isn't likely seek the office of Custodian, which is predicated on the idea of protecting all species, in the first place.

Forming a GC federation is a thing realy xenophile , not egalitarian .
Changing war philosofy or war laws inside the GC is pacifist .

It's the fact that the federation would be run as a democracy that's the egalitarian part. Besides if you really want to get into what is and is not a xenophilic or egalitarian idea, the entire Galactic Community in the first place is inherently a xenophilic idea.

What is an egalitarian action is pushing for resolve that push for equality of treathment of the pops (already there) , on an intergalatic scale , it would be to force a democracy gov to the empires inside the GC .

An egalitarian empire that is fanatic , would probably be a custodian and removing the end term .

Those are both valid options for an egalitarian, but they're not the ONLY options. Its just as believable that an egalitarian Custodian, especially after dealing with a galactic threat, would come to the simultaneous conclusions that the office of the Custodian is both necessary and easily exploitable in its current form and seek to reform it into a much more democratic institution.

Again I point out nothing about being an egalitarian dictates that you have to care about the sovereignty of other species. It is not thematically inconsistent for an egalitarian to want to centralize the Galactic Community into a single, democratic, nation. Egalitarianism is perhaps the vaguest and least easily defined ethic in the game. It offers a lot of various interpretations and thus its impossible to say one interpretation is the correct one.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

I for one am going to play as an initial egalitarian xenophile nation (the UNE) who eventually becomes Custodian, with the twist that their custodian eventually decides that the high standards of living for the common people, xenophile/anti-xenophobe policy, and long-term galactic peace must be enforced even if the rest of the galaxy has to be dragged kicking and screaming. Finding they don't have enough power yet to enact this on a galactic scale, they turn well-intentioned extremist by betraying their democratic tenants and usurping the galactic community as the first Galactic Emperor.

Then, maybe over the decades, as they get their reforms securely in place, they gradually reform the galaxy back towards the direction of democracy again.

In other words, purposefully making my empire's leader jump off the deep end part way through the game, and then possibly get a bit better again later on.

 

[Verx90]

No I'm not, but it is possible to be both egalitarian AND a xenophile. In fact every egalitarian empire in the game will have at least one other modifying ethic meaning there is no pure egalitarian society in game.

Yes and I covered that with this statement.

Also an egalitarian who doesn't care about other species isn't likely seek the office of Custodian, which is predicated on the idea of protecting all species, in the first place.

It's the fact that the federation would be run as a democracy that's the egalitarian part. Besides if you really want to get into what is and is not a xenophilic or egalitarian idea, the entire Galactic Community in the first place is inherently a xenophilic idea.


Those are both valid options for an egalitarian, but they're not the ONLY options. Its just as believable that an egalitarian Custodian, especially after dealing with a galactic threat, would come to the simultaneous conclusions that the office of the Custodian is both necessary and easily exploitable in its current form and seek to reform it into a much more democratic institution.

Again I point out nothing about being an egalitarian dictates that you have to care about the sovereignty of other species. It is not thematically inconsistent for an egalitarian to want to centralize the Galactic Community into a single, democratic, nation. Egalitarianism is perhaps the vaguest and least easily defined ethic in the game. It offers a lot of various interpretations and thus its impossible to say one interpretation is the correct one.

A military egalitarian xenophile nation may very well arbor desire for the conquest of the entire galaxy .


As stated previously , the idea of the GC is to be a diplomatic form . And given the game meccanics RN , the idea of a diplomatic annexation is incapable of maintaining certain regions carateristics and desire .
So i dont think it is a good idea , or a good meccanic (rn) to add a way for GC annexation in 1 empire .

Maybe , if we ever will have a system capable of having sector/group of sectors as an active internal politic , it may not be so bad to have a more deept form of federation that reach uniformity of centralization or GC confederation .

(Edit:To make an understandable example , CK vassals , they are part of your empire/reign/dukedoom , but they have desire and focus of theyr own ; this is aa more "vassals" approach. But thats the basic idea)

But atm it would simply be the exact result of conquest by war , without the debuff of "conquered pops" , not realy diplomatic active , considering what the GC focus is .

(Edit: i think all those things could be added as laws of a federation / GCcustodian/empire in the form of adding theyr whole fleet limit to the federation/GFD (removing federation fleet limits) and alowing for the federation leader / custodian/ emperor to build inside theyr territory , and take "taxes" . This would get to the point where the member of thea federation/GC/empire lose most of theyr indipendency of diplomacy and warfare , but keeping theyr individuality as a political factor)

 

[SuperGeek89]

A military egalitarian xenophile nation may very well arbor desire for the conquest of the entire galaxy .


As stated previously , the idea of the GC is to be a diplomatic form . And given the game meccanics RN , the idea of a diplomatic annexation is incapable of maintaining certain regions carateristics and desire .
So i dont think it is a good idea , or a good meccanic (rn) to add a way for GC annexation in 1 empire .

Maybe , if we ever will have a system capable of having sector/group of sectors as an active internal politic , it may not be so bad to have a more deept form of federation that reach uniformity of centralization or GC confederation .

But atm it would simply be the exact result of conquest by war , without the debuff of "conquered pops" , not realy diplomatic active , considering what the GC focus is .

Oh I wouldnt want it to literally be annexing every other nation in the GC, I would expect/want it to be very similar to the Galactic Imperium, just with a 'democratic' coat of paint. Change it from the Imperial Senate to Galactic Senate, Emperor to President/Chancellor/Prime Minister with some sort of election system, replace Imperial Authority with corruption or unity that of not managed well would lead to separatists, maybe add a few different laws/resolutions that would start shifting members to democracies or oligarchies. I understand mechanically its not that much different from just continuing on as the Galactic Community, but narratively there's never a point where the Galactic Community goes from a collection of independent countries to a single "unified" government unless you create the Imperium.

 

[Primarch Victus]

Yeah. We only can unify the galaxy by creating "The First Galactic Imperium", but it would be cool if we could truly unify the Galactic Community into something more akin to Star Trek's Federation, Star Wars's Galactic Republic, Andromeda's Systems Commonwealth or Iain M. Banks's The Culture.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

Yeah. We only can unify the galaxy by creating "The First Galactic Imperium", but it would be cool if we could truly unify the Galactic Community into something more akin to Star Trek's Federation, Star Wars's Galactic Republic, Andromeda's Systems Commonwealth or Iain M. Banks's The Culture.

In a more circuitous way, you could do that in the following manner, which is both convoluted and burns tons of influence.

1.) Proclaim Galactic Imperium after meeting all prerequisites.
2.) Ethics shift to anything else (but I don't think you'll be able to pick Egalitarian at this point) so that you won't be Fanatic Authoritarian anymore and are allowed to select Oligarchic government; then change your authority to Oligarchic.
3.) After your ethics shift cool down ends, ethics shift again into Egalitarian (if you have enough pops attracted to it due to your living standards, which should ideally be Social Welfare to you have increased Egalitarian attraction). Now that you are finally Egalitarian again, reform your government into a Democracy.

You are now a Democracy that is simultaneously Galactic Sovereign....

Which is honestly kind of a weird combination as you think of it. I guess the Imperial Core has representative government including a democratically-elected "Galactic Emperor" (I guess a kind of "Supreme Chancellor", if you would) who by this point is actually just a more powerful president with a regular term length.

 

[SuperGeek89]

In a more circuitous way, you could do that in the following manner, which is both convoluted and burns tons of influence.

1.) Proclaim Galactic Imperium after meeting all prerequisites.
2.) Ethics shift to anything else (but I don't think you'll be able to pick Egalitarian at this point) so that you won't be Fanatic Authoritarian anymore and are allowed to select Oligarchic government; then change your authority to Oligarchic.
3.) After your ethics shift cool down ends, ethics shift again into Egalitarian (if you have enough pops attracted to it due to your living standards, which should ideally be Social Welfare to you have increased Egalitarian attraction). Now that you are finally Egalitarian again, reform your government into a Democracy.

You are now a Democracy that is simultaneously Galactic Sovereign....

Which is honestly kind of a weird combination as you think of it. I guess the Imperial Core has representative government including a democratically-elected "Galactic Emperor" (I guess a kind of "Supreme Chancellor", if you would) who by this point is actually just a more powerful president with a regular term length.

I mean you can do that, and its an interesting playthrough idea, but it would be nice if you didnt have to go through so many steps. Though would be intersting if you went through all that and it just turned you into a constitutional monarchy. Not sure how mechanically that would work but I've felt that Stellaris has been missing constitutional monarchies for a while.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

I mean you can do that, and its an interesting playthrough idea, but it would be nice if you didnt have to go through so many steps. Though would be intersting if you went through all that and it just turned you into a constitutional monarchy. Not sure how mechanically that would work but I've felt that Stellaris has been missing constitutional monarchies for a while.

I agree with you on both counts - it is an interesting playthrough idea (indeed, as I already posted, I'm explicitly planning to make it my first Nemesis playthrough) but I wish that we didn't need to go through so many steps.

But also, I thank you for phrasing it as constitutional monarchy, as that clarifies to me what having a Democratic Galactic sovereign would mean in practice. I was mental blocking on it, but its so obvious now. To expound on it, it would be having a constitutional (democratically) elective monarchy. I guess kind of like the Naboo from Star Wars.

 

[Primarch Victus]

Mimisbrunnr, are you aware that the ethics of the empire's founder will shift to Authoritarian? As far as I know, there is no way to change that. I don't want a unified galaxy that was created by abusing of the gameplay mechanics -- I want that change to be voluntary and achieved through diplomacy and good will (of course, a really dangerous crysis helps a lot in this hour). Remember the Systems Commonwealth? Well, it only became a constitutional monarchy because the Vedran (Vedran Empire's founder species) became a minority on its own empire -- an empire shaked by rebelions and riots. It's something like that what I truly want.