EUIV - Development Diary - 17th of March 2020

[Mr.Grizzly]

Do you really play SP? That is Italy's second strongest idea after CCR. Your Aggressive Expansion decays 1.5x faster, so expansion into North Africa or the Middle East (or Europe, where the mission tree guides) is done much easier.

Both France and Spain throw manpower even with those military ideas, Italy doing the same is not "having to resort to" but only doing the normal thing, none of the three are Prussia who can get away with having actual elite troops.

You are thinking too modern of Italy there. If anything i expect half Italy's force to be mercenary corps given their development and trade node.

I've never played a minute of EU IV MP, I don't have the time, don't have the friends, the groups and frankly playing 50 years of a match then having it end by going public doesn't interest me.

+50% Improve Relations is good, but as someone who doesn't rush for WC, I don't mind waiting a bit longer for wars and I'll expand somewhere else, considering that Italy being in the centre of the Mediterrenanean it has multiple areas it can go for expansion. So maybe my choice of words of useless isn't right but it's not a great idea to have, it's good, not great.

Yeah they throw manpower, everyone does, I meant the fact that even Russia has multiple military bonuses yet they are ridiculed for troop quality, and I'm not talking about the Soviet Union during the early days of Operation Barborossa so don't go there. I just don't see why Italy, who has a history of military conflicts, has to have +15% Infantry Combat Ability, which is a tiny upgrade over one of England's Traditions that some say is too weak, and have a +33% National Manpower Modifier. Russia has the same manpower bonus, +10% Artillery Combat Ability, +5% Morale of Armies, -10% Fire Damage Received and +50% Land Force Limit Modifier. Even Ireland is better on the military front with +10% Morale of Armies, +5% Discipline and -10% Shock Damage Received. Again, not asking for Prussian troops, asking for troops that can at least beat the Austrians if we're going off of National Idea bonuses.

I don't think we should ignore the military history of a region because the people that fought was mercenaries, that's still people who live in the country fighting constantly, this is the region that the Roman Empire rose from, the region where the Etruscans were a military people as well as the Samnites in the south, getting a petty +15% ICA is nothing compared to other European majors, a major shouldn't have to rely on mercenaries to win wars. Not saying they shouldn't use them, they shouldn't have to rely on flooding their opponents with manpower and mercenary manpower.

If you want Italy to keep the +50% Improved Relations, why not merge the -10% Stability Cost Modifier with the +1 Yearly Prestige and give them a Morale boost or whatever, do more casualties in the fire phase, take less in the fire phase, I'm not an expert on what specialty would work best for Italy but give them something more then just a little boost to infantry performance.

 

[Rudolf Nechvile II]

Will some of the other mission trees like Spanish and Russian ones be touched up a bit? Also, the Justinian's Restoration is cool and all, but shouldn't the Eastern Roman Empire also actually have missions and claims on all of Rome instead of another pretender?

Seeing as Rome is often seen as the empire, can we please have missions for them too? Just a few focused on crushing pretenders like Russia and the HRE; securing lands in Caledonia, Germania, Persia etc, and a few colonisation missions.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

Yep, just ran a combat test, both countries with same prestige, same army tradition and all that, but one had +15% Infantry Combat Ability, the other had +10% Morale of Armies (this was to represent Austria, since they have a +3% Discipline as well, I couldn't represent in custom nations so it was just the morale buff) and the +10% Morale of Armies alone beat +15% Infantry Combat Ability, but go ahead, tell me why Italy doesn't deserve at least 1 new military idea and that they should be weaker militarily then the United States of America in their early days when they barely even had a military and lost to a bunch of colonist who formed a militia and burnt the Whitehouse down in 1812 in a war they started.

 

[ManusDomini]

It all looks cool but my immediate thoughts are:

• Does the AI actually convert now? Have the Centres of Reformation been reduced in potency so they don't fucking eat up all of Europe but Iberia in seconds? Do you as the Papal States have any power to send missionaries or affect conversion in other countries bar raw military power?

• Why did you put Mussolini in charge of writing the Italian mission tree and how did you trick him into writing a mission for befriending Ethiopia? It's a little bit annoying that all the beauties and fantastic developments of Rennaisance Italy are ignored in favour of... a Roman Empire reference. I mean the Italians at the time absolutely used terms such as barbarian and thought of Rome as their predecessors but used terms such as Hispania, Carthago and Gaul they most certainly did not.

• Will Scandinavia be made less anemic in another update? Hell forget about Scandinavia, what about the Middle East. The Ottoman Empire which a): actually existed b): dominated the entire eastern Mediterranean and c): is supposed to be one of the main focus nations of EU4 now has a smaller and more anemic focus tree than Italy, a country that would not exist until after EU4's timeline is over. Safavid Iran does not even have a mission tree, events such as the massive conquests of Nader Shah are completely ignored, an empire that could smash around Mughals, Russians and the Ottomans (well until it couldn't and got its shit pushed in but that's how it be sometimes) has less focus than German minors.

 

[Kapitalisti]

I am hoping the Imperialist Vatican can be turned off since it is far too ahistorical for my tastes. Maintaining the Papal States? Check. Maintaining Italian independence from outsiders? Check. Pursuing the lands in the Donation of Pepin? Maybe. Conquering Gaul? No.

Uhm, are you mixing up the Papal and Italian missions?

 

[EquilinT]

<snip>

I'd suggest you get a reason that is not "they should win against/be on par with country A/B/C/D because they are Italy who emerged from people who fought internally all the time prior." Give me a historical/alt-historical example of why Italy should have comparable troop quality to those you mentioned because I don't see one right now.

 

[Mr. Overextension]

That'd leave Epirus with no missions, and it's unlikely that a small mission tree could be cooked up explicitly for the Epirotes (or Greek tags in general) in this span of time.

It's better to have no missions at all than missions that don't make sense, it's like giving Germany France's mission tree for the sake of giving it a tree. If they have time to cook up a mission tree later down the road then that's splendid, but for now those missions should be removed from this tag

 

[Rastin]

Will Russia and Ottomans get a new mission tree? Russia has only about 29 missions, while France has about 40 as does the UK. Even the Netherlands has more than 30 missions

Bro then look at Poland/Commonwealth They have less and half of them is generic and quater of specific missions are some bitchslaps like "break the rus" or this mission that makes u develop ruthenia and gives u development reduction (why would i even bother doing it)

 

[Zak Preston]

Yeah they throw manpower, everyone does, I meant the fact that even Russia has multiple military bonuses yet they are ridiculed for troop quality, and I'm not talking about the Soviet Union during the early days of Operation Barborossa so don't go there. I just don't see why Italy, who has a history of military conflicts, has to have +15% Infantry Combat Ability, which is a tiny upgrade over one of England's Traditions that some say is too weak, and have a +33% National Manpower Modifier. Russia has the same manpower bonus, +10% Artillery Combat Ability, +5% Morale of Armies, -10% Fire Damage Received and +50% Land Force Limit Modifier. Even Ireland is better on the military front with +10% Morale of Armies, +5% Discipline and -10% Shock Damage Received. Again, not asking for Prussian troops, asking for troops that can at least beat the Austrians if we're going off of National Idea bonuses.

Russia has pretty frightening army quality, especially in lategame:
+10% Artillery CA is already a unique bonus
-10% fire damage received is a huge bonus after MIL-16 tech
+5% land morale and +0.25 AT are quite handy

+5% discipline from Orthodoxy
+10% fire damage from their Streltsy.

Combine +10% ACA, + 10% fire damage from infantry and -10% fire damage received, and you almost have +10% discipline (not really, but kinda close). Even without Russian quantity these ideas are quite good (way above average). However with all their quantity bonuses, government reforms, events and missions Russia actually has top-1 army.

 

[Jarvin]

Russia has pretty frightening army quality, especially in lategame:
+10% Artillery CA is already a unique bonus
-10% fire damage received is a huge bonus after MIL-16 tech
+5% land morale and +0.25 AT are quite handy

+5% discipline from Orthodoxy
+10% fire damage from their Streltsy.

Combine +10% ACA, + 10% fire damage from infantry and -10% fire damage received, and you almost have +10% discipline (not really, but kinda close). Even without Russian quantity these ideas are quite good (way above average). However with all their quantity bonuses, government reforms, events and missions Russia actually has top-1 army.

These are some advanced maffs, but they are probably very wrong, sadly

1. Assuming that you'll magically have streltsy in all of your army is ridiculous
2. Counting 5% disci from ortho is pointless. Protestants get 2.5% disc and 5% morale which have comparable strength; hindus get +5% disc; shinto gets +10% morale. Russia is no uniquehere
3. Yes, +5% morale and +0.25 AT are handy but also miniscule as fuck
4. -10% fire damage received is never a huge bonus, at very best it's "handy"
5. 10% arti ACA extremely rarely is more powerful than 10% ICA

trying to somehow make a case for Russia having high quality is ridiculous

 

[Aych]

Regarding the “The Swiss Guard” Papal State event which has now been converted into a mission, I feel like there should still be a bonus for the Swiss.

The event chain gave +10 prestige and an opinion modifier from the papal state, now it’s been reworked into a mission and simply requires positive relations with the Swiss there is nothing to reward the Swiss and frankly to be chosen by the Pope to act as his personal guard was a hell of a complement and would have raised the Swiss’ prestige not just temporarily but for hundreds of years.

I’d like to propose that either the Papal Mission “The Swiss Guard” not only enables the Swiss guard as a mercenary unit for The Papal State, but causes the event “The Swiss Guard” for Switzerland giving them either +1prestige/year or -1prestigedecay/year (one is obviously stronger than the other) for 20/50 years or until the end of the game (I’m hesitant to suggest end of game as idk how much you’ve given Switzerland in their missions and unique flavour events).

Additionally a flavour event could be introduced that if these conditions are true:

• Swiss Guard are/was hired by the Papal State during the Italian Wars period previously mentioned in the dev diary
• Rome is seiged down
• Switzerland are not at war with The Papal State

Then in reference to the last stand of the Swiss Guard during the sack of Rome in 1527 by mutinous landsknechts of the HRE during said Italian Wars, the Swiss could receive an event providing a small bonus to Manpower Recovery (5-10%) or Discipline/Morale (2.5% or 5% respectively) as the Swiss people became proud of their legacy. This bonus could last a set time or last until the end of the game but would be removed if Switzerland converted from being Catholic.

 

[Oporto]

Russia was quite strong millitarily during the most XVIII century to which artillery combat ability can be referred, but seeing streltsy in the late-game?..
I would like to see a possible disaster or at least an event "Streltsy coup" when you can continue to rely upon them or disband them entirely - a bit similar to the janissaries, but these two are not the same types of forces, and streltsy gave the road to a european-model army during the Peter I reign and were slowly desbanded up to the mid-XVIII century.
Maybe we could see some elite- or national guard units during the Age of Revolutions, who are more disciplined and have higher morale for example but at a higher maintenance cost and slower to reinforce (plus, the number of the regiments would be very limited)?

 

[Sete]

Do special units have any drawbacks?

 

[TheFireWarrior]

It all looks cool but my immediate thoughts are:

• Why did you put Mussolini in charge of writing the Italian mission tree and how did you trick him into writing a mission for befriending Ethiopia? It's a little bit annoying that all the beauties and fantastic developments of Rennaisance Italy are ignored in favour of... a Roman Empire reference. I mean the Italians at the time absolutely used terms such as barbarian and thought of Rome as their predecessors but used terms such as Hispania, Carthago and Gaul they most certainly did not.

the missions for the italy minors that can form italy will focused on renaissance italy, the italy missions are for when you are done those and have formed italy,

 

[Oporto]

the missions for the italy minors that can form italy will focused on renaissance italy, the italy missions are for when you are done those and have formed italy,

So the most suitable thing to do would be to merge the Venetian/Milanese/Piedmontese/Italian minors missions with the United Italy mission tree, after you from Italy as a respective italian nation.

 

[Battlex]

Do special units have any drawbacks?

Janissaries can fire the Janissaries disaster
Stretsly increase stability increase cost
Cossacks can break free in a disaster, but if all steppe land leaves I think you keep them
Rajputs give influence to rajput estate and recruiting them pisses off the nobility estate so harms your MIL mana gain, but can't revolt unlike cossacks and marathis (marathis don't give unique soldiers)

 

[Clement Von Loon]

Does the Prinsbishopric of Liège has the HRE Missions?
Besides being an OPM why isn't the county of Loon being added? The Flemish people of Loon are not represented by an revolter tag.
I hope to get a fast responds.

Edit. I meant releasable tag for county of Loon; also thank you for the response Pbhuh you are correct on that.

 

[Pbhuh]

Does the Prinsbishopric of Liège has the HRE Missions?
Besides being an OPM why isn't the county of Loon being added? The Flemish people of Loon are not represented by an revolter tag.
I hope to get a fast responds.

They are represented by a revolter tag, its Flanders.

Primary nation of Flemish culture is Flanders, hence when they revolt they can join Flanders.

There is no core for Loon, which I guess isnt that necesarry. In the entire history of EU4 we dont see any county of Loon as independant state.

 

[Arclath2]

I hate to be 'that guy' - but I have to ask, has there been any word at all on the Scandinavian countries? Although I understand that they're not part of the Emperor expansion, (which is weird, seeing as it's Europe-centric), part of me wonders why nothing has been heard, or no future plans remarked upon, as Denmark and Sweden were (arguably) at their most influential during this time period.

 

[Zak Preston]

These are some advanced maffs, but they are probably very wrong, sadly

Nothing advanced here,

1. Assuming that you'll magically have streltsy in all of your army is ridiculous

You don't need to have 100% inf as streltsy. Having around 35% of your total infantry is usually enough already for your vanguard strike armies.

2. Counting 5% disci from ortho is pointless. Protestants get 2.5% disc and 5% morale which have comparable strength; hindus get +5% disc; shinto gets +10% morale. Russia is no uniquehere

It kinda is because +5% discipline is considerably better in late game than +10% land morale exactly the same way as +2.5% discipline is better than +5% land morale.

3. Yes, +5% morale and +0.25 AT are handy but also miniscule as fuck
4. -10% fire damage received is never a huge bonus, at very best it's "handy"
5. 10% arti ACA extremely rarely is more powerful than 10% ICA

trying to somehow make a case for Russia having high quality is ridiculous

These ideas alone make Russian army quality slightly better than average (which is something like +5% discipline with +10% ICA). If you add streltsy and orthodoxy into equation, Russian quality becomes considerably better than average. But what makes Russian ideas really unique is the synergy between orthodox discipline, -10% fire damage received + and massive quantity bonuses that streltsy regiments heavily rely on. For example if Russia somehow finds itself fighting France, their armies quality disparity won't be huge: France will definitely have way more morale, but Russia will deal more casualties and will have far superior numbers.