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Rudolf Nechvile II

Second Lieutenant
75 Badges
Aug 3, 2017
194
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General Improvements:
To follow are just some minor improvements that I think are feasible to implement during the coming European update that don't distract from the focus, but in my opinion noticeably increase the quality of life for colonial players.
  • Colonies should be limited to expansion in their region. Perhaps add events and liberty desire for them wanting to expand further as was the case with the Thirteen Colonies wanting to expand west. Colonies should also try to focus on the coast before pushing in and a bit better at colonising across ocean (e.g. Caribbean and Australia).
  • Colonies don't switch colour when you form a different tag. I'm not sure if it was a bug, but my Holland colonies didn't become orange upon forming the Netherlands.
  • Western Amazon and that basin in California (forgot it's name) wastelands don't get coloured when colonies follow the proper borders of the regions.
  • Subjects' colonies don't integrate into your colonies when inheriting a PU or annexing vassals. I know people like the extra merchants, but I prefer prettier borders.
  • Colonies also no longer convert religion and culture for some reason, probably due to the new colonial cultures, expulsion and conversion changes. Perhaps you could use holy orders like edicts for territories and trade companies to act as a religious centre limited to a state (should help with making Philippines Catholic as Spain) and should each provide a bonus and a drawback (most things in EU4 e.g. government reforms could have this to make choices more meaningful) and have a worthwhile reason for expulsion.
  • Colonies should always have the primary culture and religion of the overlord. I noticed that when I expelled Catholic Francien to Louisiana as Anglican Britain, the CN had that culture and religion, possibly because of where the capital spawned.
  • Colonies should also gain a ton of liberty desire if their parent nations is almost fully occupied, and there is historical precedent with Napoleon's occupation of Spain. Colonies in general should get more liberty desire (perhaps through DHEs) during the age of revolution, not less! This would definitely make New World formables more common and prevent Portugal consisting of one Pacific island, running a huge subject in the New World.
  • You should be able dictate the capital of your colonial nation, making the first one free. This is just so that I can set the historical capitals if I wanted to, dictate more defendable or developed land, or even one of the Seven Cities of Gold.
  • Colonial nations should automatically seize colonies, if possible, in their area.
 
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Improving Tordesillas:
I understand that representing Tordesillas in game is impossible and wouldn’t really be fun if two nations could literally just divide the world in two and claim all the heathen lands. I do think the current system can be somewhat improved though to make remaining a Catholic coloniser a bit more worthwhile, add a bit more flavour and just give the mechanic a bit more meaning.
  • Tordesillas should reward claims on colonised lands as well, providing a CB to the claimant on any transgressors and natives. This should help Spain take on central America and keep away those pesky English.
  • The “Concede Area” peace treaty should not only give up colonial lands, but also the claims to those areas and prevent the loser colonising that area for at least five years.
  • This should go without saying, but heretics should automatically forfeit their claims if they don’t already.
  • Transgressors of the treaty should make the pope a more pissed than currently that people don’t respect his authority and should lead to excommunication. A happy pope, one who is from your country, allied or receiving constant pious donations (*wink* *wink*) might turn a blind eye though.
  • I would just generally like greater enforcement on the treaty.
  • Settlers should still be lower for heretics colonising claimed land, but perhaps the penalties should be lower for them and offset by the additional settlers Protestants can get.
 
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"Concede Area" already prevents the loser from colonising in that region for the duration of the truce.

I'd like if a claim on an uncolonised province gives a bonus to settler rate/chance, feels weird to have claims over empty space.
 
"Concede Area" already prevents the loser from colonising in that region for the duration of the truce.
I did not know this, but it'd still be nice if the claims transferred.

I'd like if a claim on an uncolonised province gives a bonus to settler rate/chance, feels weird to have claims over empty space.
I saw on Reddit that it gives +10 settlers to the claimant and -20 to other Catholics, basically making Protestantism even more of a no-brainer considering they can get even more settlers through their religion and settle wherever. That's also why I'd like a CB on encroachers.
 
  • Colonies also no longer convert religion and culture for some reason, probably due to the new colonial cultures, expulsion and conversion changes. Perhaps you could use holy orders like edicts for territories and trade companies to act as a religious centre limited to a state (should help with making Philippines Catholic as Spain) and should each provide a bonus and a drawback (most things in EU4 e.g. government reforms could have this to make choices more meaningful) and have a worthwhile reason for expulsion.
I would be very happy if this could be fixed soon. Since colonies do not convert their provinces anymore, they also cannot change the colonial cultures (you can only do so in provinces following the nations official faith).

In my recent Castile game, I did not realize that my middle american colonial nation New Castile did not even convert a single province. The colonial nation was highly unstable due to that and it kills immersion somewhat if you look at a 100% nahuatl Mexico in 1750, when you actually tried to follow the historical pattern of your mission tree.

(granted, I could have seen this earlier and converted all provinces manually...)
 
These are all good. I am wondering how was quality of armies in colonial nations? Were they able to fight against other European powers in history? (until late)
Thanks, I'm not 100% certain, but my understanding is that colonial forces were usually limited to mainly their own areas, fighting off natives and other colonies, kinda just like they do now. They were however able to throw off their parent nations, albeit with external help in the case of the Thirteen Colonies or because the parent nation was occupied and devastated by war, in the case of Spanish colonies.
Basically, the colonial armies are fine, they should just remove the age ability that reduces liberty desire from development during the age of revolution and colonies should also gain a ton of liberty desire if their parent nations is almost fully occupied. They should struggle taking on their parent 1v1, but banded together and with European support, independence should be more common.
 
Improving Tordesillas

In regards to Tordesillas, it is worth noting that historically, Protestant maritime powers like England and the Netherlands, and other third parties such as Catholic France, did not recognize the division of the world between only two Roman Catholic nations brokered by the pope. Really, the treaty was mainly used by Spain and Portugal to avoid conflict over their overseas expansion, and even then it was enforced only if the other kingdom's interests were at stake. Spain did not care about Portugal's colonization of Brazil across their side of the meridian, but did start to argue about the treaty when Portugal discovered the Moluccas, which were one of the richest sources of spices. Portugal did not oppose the Spanish expeditions to the Philippines due to their lack of spices, but raised issue to the Pope when other Catholic nations tried to stop Portugal's expansion to the east by claiming the meridian (and therefore Spain's share of the world) ran around the world.

The treaty was historically important in dividing Latin America and shaping how the colonial empires of Spain and Portugal took form. However, it became obsolete when the other European nations started to colonize North America (and later Asia and Africa), and since the Spanish and Portuguese nations' power were in decline at that point, they were unable to hold and enforce their claims to much of the world, making the treaty as good as nothing.

As such, the Treaty of Tordesillas mechanic should probably be reworked completely.
  • Instead of making it an universal Catholic mechanic, Tordesillas should be a mechanic exclusive to the first colonizers limited to the first half of the game, which usually will be Castile/Spain and Portugal.
  • Once the Colonialism institution spawns or the "Discovery of the New World!" event has happened, the event "Treaty of Tordesillas" takes place, dividing the colonial regions among the first two explorers/colonizers of the new world. Generally, all Colonial regions apart from Colonial Brazil and the Philippine Charter will be assigned to the stronger colonizer (usually Spain), while the other colonizer will get Colonial Brazil and the rest of the Trade Company Regions (usually Portugal).
    • Colonization of the colonial regions will grant +10 global settlet increase, as usual. Colonization of the Trade Company regions would now receive the same benefit.
  • Rather than immediately triggeting the penalty "Violated the Treaty of Tordesillas", if a Catholic/Protestant/Reformed/Anglican nation colonizes an area which another nation has a colonial claim to, the nation which the area has been assigned to gets an event which allows them to either let the other nation continue their colonization process, or press their claims.
    • Should the claimant of the area choose to ignore the colonization long enough that another colonial nation is formed in the area, they lose the claim to the entire colonial area.
    • Should the claimant of the area press the claim to the colony, the colonizer gets three options: granting the colony to the original owner, selling the colony to the original owner, or ignoring their claims. Only the third decision will lead to a violation of the Treaty of Tordesillas and will always grant the claimant of the area a claim to the province, but the severity of the punishment from the treaty varies depending on the factors described below.
  • Catholic, Protestant, Reformed and Anglican nations can choose whether to respect or ignore the treaty. The AI should almost consistently choose to ignore the treaty (as nations historically did), and apart from the initial colonizers, their subjects and the Papacy, only Catholic nations of lower government rank that are too weak to oppose the initial colonizers' hegemony should choose to respect the treaty.
    • The negative modifier "Violated the Treaty of Tordesillas" only appears immediately for a nation which already has colonial claims in another region: meaning that if Spain and Portugal are the two colonizers, the negative modifiers only occur if Portugal expands to Spanish-claimed lands and refuses to yield the colonies, or vice verca.
    • If a Catholic colonizer has chosen not to respect the treaty, they get a significantly smaller opinion penalty from the Papal States and no settler growth penalty. The claimant country's opinion penalty remains unchanged.
    • If a nation with its capital in a colonial/trade company region converts to Catholicism, it receives no "Violated the Treaty of Tordesillas" penalties. Colonizers retain their claims to the region, however, but are significantly less likely to press them.
  • After the Age of Absolutism begins or if enough nations have started colonizing without the initial members of the Treaty of Tordesillas attempting to stop their colonial attempts, the Treaty of Tordesillas becomes invalid, and all European nations can colonize without any penalties. The initial colonizers lose claims to the colonial regions where they haven't established a colonial nation, as well as their claims to all Trade Company regions.
    • As long as the Treaty of Tordesillas is valid, Catholic/Protestant/Reformed/Anglican AI nations are significantly less likely to take Expansion or Exploration ideas or pursue colonization; if an AI nation respects the treaty, they will not take Expansion or Exploration idea groups at all. Equitably, once the Treaty of Tordesillas ceases to be valid, the AI will be more likely to pursue colonization.
All of these changes should hopefully make the Treaty of Tordesillas mechanic more historically accurate by ensuring that the colonial game flows relatively historically by having different colonizers starting to pursue colonization at roughly historically accurate time-periods, while also giving players enough tools to overcome the restrictions brought by the Treaty of Tordesillas and pursue earlier colonization, if they so choose to.
 
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In regards to Tordesillas, it is worth noting that historically, Protestant maritime powers like England and the Netherlands, and other third parties such as Catholic France, did not recognize the division of the world between only two Roman Catholic nations brokered by the pope. Really, the treaty was mainly used by Spain and Portugal to avoid conflict over their overseas expansion, and even then it was enforced only if the other kingdom's interests were at stake. Spain did not care about Portugal's colonization of Brazil across their side of the meridian, but did start to argue about the treaty when Portugal discovered the Moluccas, which were one of the richest sources of spices. Portugal did not oppose the Spanish expeditions to the Philippines due to their lack of spices, but raised issue to the Pope when other Catholic nations tried to stop Portugal's expansion to the east by claiming the meridian (and therefore Spain's share of the world) ran around the world.

The treaty was historically important in dividing Latin America and shaping how the colonial empires of Spain and Portugal took form. However, it became obsolete when the other European nations started to colonize North America (and later Asia and Africa), and since the Spanish and Portuguese nations' power were in decline at that point, they were unable to hold and enforce their claims to much of the world, making the treaty as good as nothing.

As such, the Treaty of Tordesillas mechanic should probably be reworked completely.
  • Instead of making it an universal Catholic mechanic, Tordesillas should be a mechanic exclusive to the first colonizers limited to the first half of the game, which usually will be Castile/Spain and Portugal.
  • Once the Colonialism institution spawns or the "Discovery of the New World!" event has happened, the event "Treaty of Tordesillas" takes place, dividing the colonial regions among the first two explorers/colonizers of the new world. Generally, all Colonial regions apart from Colonial Brazil and the Philippine Charter will be assigned to the stronger colonizer (usually Spain), while the other colonizer will get Colonial Brazil and the rest of the Trade Company Regions (usually Portugal).
    • Colonization of the colonial regions will grant +10 global settlet increase, as usual. Colonization of the Trade Company regions would now receive the same benefit.
  • Rather than immediately triggeting the penalty "Violated the Treaty of Tordesillas", if a Catholic/Protestant/Reformed/Anglican nation colonizes an area which another nation has a colonial claim to, the nation which the area has been assigned to gets an event which allows them to either let the other nation continue their colonization process, or press their claims.
    • Should the claimant of the area choose to ignore the colonization long enough that another colonial nation is formed in the area, they lose the claim to the entire colonial area.
    • Should the claimant of the area press the claim to the colony, the colonizer gets three options: granting the colony to the original owner, selling the colony to the original owner, or ignoring their claims. Only the third decision will lead to a violation of the Treaty of Tordesillas and will always grant the claimant of the area a claim to the province, but the severity of the punishment from the treaty varies depending on the factors described below.
  • Catholic, Protestant, Reformed and Anglican nations can choose whether to respect or ignore the treaty. The AI should almost consistently choose to ignore the treaty (as nations historically did), and apart from the initial colonizers, their subjects and the Papacy, only Catholic nations of lower government rank that are too weak to oppose the initial colonizers' hegemony should choose to respect the treaty.
    • The negative modifier "Violated the Treaty of Tordesillas" only appears immediately for a nation which already has colonial claims in another region: meaning that if Spain and Portugal are the two colonizers, the negative modifiers only occur if Portugal expands to Spanish-claimed lands and refuses to yield the colonies, or vice verca.
    • If a Catholic colonizer has chosen not to respect the treaty, they get a significantly smaller opinion penalty from the Papal States and no settler growth penalty. The claimant country's opinion penalty remains unchanged.
    • If a nation with its capital in a colonial/trade company region converts to Catholicism, it receives no "Violated the Treaty of Tordesillas" penalties. Colonizers retain their claims to the region, however, but are significantly less likely to press them.
  • After the Age of Absolutism begins or if enough nations have started colonizing without the initial members of the Treaty of Tordesillas attempting to stop their colonial attempts, the Treaty of Tordesillas becomes invalid, and all European nations can colonize without any penalties. The initial colonizers lose claims to the colonial regions where they haven't established a colonial nation, as well as their claims to all Trade Company regions.
    • As long as the Treaty of Tordesillas is valid, Catholic/Protestant/Reformed/Anglican AI nations are significantly less likely to take Expansion or Exploration ideas or pursue colonization; if an AI nation respects the treaty, they will not take Expansion or Exploration idea groups at all. Equitably, once the Treaty of Tordesillas ceases to be valid, the AI will be more likely to pursue colonization.
All of these changes should hopefully make the Treaty of Tordesillas mechanic more historically accurate by ensuring that the colonial game flows relatively historically by having different colonizers starting to pursue colonization at roughly historically accurate time-periods, while also giving players enough tools to overcome the restrictions brought by the Treaty of Tordesillas and pursue earlier colonization, if they so choose to.
I kinda like your idea because it's miles better than mine, as mine was just really minor suggestions to the current system that wasn't really in the scope of the European Update (although tbh Tordesillas should have been reworked for Golden Century) but could still be reasonably implemented as a temporary improvement for it.
 
I like the note on colonies preferring coastal expansion to inland. It feels weird seeing all of Louisiana always settled by 1600 or so when in reality much of it was unknown two centuries later.

However, I disagree with the integrating vassal leading to integrating the vassal's colonies as well. There might be an extra mechanic for this (i.e., overlord desires integration vs overlord does not desire integration leading to outcomes such as increased liberty desire in the first case and reduced for a long time in the second case).

In general, it would be much nicer if the player (or PC) could choose whether to form a colonial nation or not in some cases (or how many to form—thinking of thirteen separate colonies instead of one, for example). Then again, the game's colonization is very different to how it would have worked so perhaps it's best to ignore niceties like that.
 
However, I disagree with the integrating vassal leading to integrating the vassal's colonies as well. There might be an extra mechanic for this (i.e., overlord desires integration vs overlord does not desire integration leading to outcomes such as increased liberty desire in the first case and reduced for a long time in the second case).

In general, it would be much nicer if the player (or PC) could choose whether to form a colonial nation or not in some cases (or how many to form—thinking of thirteen separate colonies instead of one, for example). Then again, the game's colonization is very different to how it would have worked so perhaps it's best to ignore niceties like that.
I don't really have any issue with making it a decision or something, because I think more choice isn't a bad thing. However the suggestion is based mostly on aesthetics and on existing mechanics rather than imitating real life. I think it might also lead to balance issues because if I remember correctly you get merchants from colonial nations.

But I do think some interesting events could be created, for example the original colonial nation gaining liberty desire if you chose not to integrate the new one into it, or one outright refusing integration and declaring independence. Border tensions will certainly be a problem and perhaps could even cause war. If your colonial nation was smaller than the integrated one, you have a large population ruled by an elite of a different culture suddenly and even if your colonial nation was larger, you suddenly have new large minority to rule over, which certainly leads to tension and stability issues. It isn't necessarily historical but I think some stability problems and liberty problems would definitely be a fun change to things in New World.
 
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Generally, all Colonial regions apart from Colonial Brazil and the Philippine Charter will be assigned to the stronger colonizer (usually Spain), while the other colonizer will get Colonial Brazil and the rest of the Trade Company Regions (usually Portugal).

Can you explain what do you mean by this?

Tordesillas should always be between Castille and Portugal.
If one of them is out of the picture, its bussiness as usual for everyone.
 
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Generally, all Colonial regions apart from Colonial Brazil and the Philippine Charter will be assigned to the stronger colonizer (usually Spain), while the other colonizer will get Colonial Brazil and the rest of the Trade Company Regions (usually Portugal).

Can you explain what do you mean by this?

Tordesillas should always be between Castille and Portugal.
If one of them is out of the picture, its bussiness as usual for everyone.
The idea I had was that since it is possible for nations other than Portugal or Castile to be the first nation to find the Americas and to colonize it first, the Treaty of Tordesillas should be available for the first two colonizers of Europe, who in theory wouldn't be excluded to Castile or Portugal, but who in practice would be the ones getting it almost all of the time.

So, in my proposal, the first two European colonizers would divide the Colonial and Trade Company Regions between one another: the lands would be divided between the two mainly based on the size and military strength of the tags. In other words, the stronger colonizer would get the historical Spanish Empire's claims, while the weaker colonizer would get the historical Portuguese Empire's claims: and since Castile is almost always larger and stronger than Portugal, they would get claims to historical Spanish Empire instead of Portugal. But in theory, any colonizer in Europe could get the claims, based on their military strength and the number of owned provinces in comparison to the other colonizer: meaning that if England or France focus their early game on colonization, they could wind up with vast claims to the New World if they're stronger than the second European colonizer.

Of course, at the time I hadn't read in detail about how the Treaty of Tordesillas was connected to the Castilian Civil War, the Treaty of Alcáçovas and Columbus' discovery of the Americas. If I were to write my proposal for the rework of Treaty of Tordesillas now, I would take the in-game outcome of these event into account, meaning that the outcome of the Castilian Civil War would be the determining factor in shaping the outcome of the Treaty of Tordesillas. However, since EU4 doesn't do a particularly good job in representing the Castilian Civil War to begin with (since the outcome of the Civil War has no impact on whether Castile and Aragon wind up in a personal union), a proposal for the rework of the Treaty of Tordesillas would either have to rework these events, or ignore them unless they are reworked.
 
Portugal focus was always India, so in my opinion the treaty should respect the actual areas of influence.
Its not a matter of dividing brazil and rest of south america, just the fact that they had exclusive acess to the sea route to india.

Portugal did not show much interest in the new world until sec XVIII.
 
These are all good. I am wondering how was quality of armies in colonial nations? Were they able to fight against other European powers in history? (until late)

You have the example of the Dutch-Portuguese war, where the Colonial Armies of Brazil proved to be very competent quality-wise against an European power.



 
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