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EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of July 2020

Good afternoon! I am once again eschewing the traditional Swedish summer vacation, this time because I’d prefer to wait until I can safely travel rather than taking a dull staycation in my Stockholm apartment. What that means for you lovely people is that you get summer content dev diaries! Let’s get right into it!

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Those of you who know me even slightly will be aware that I love all things South-East Asia (SEA). After 2.5 years on the project, I finally have the opportunity to create the SEA map rework of my dreams. Shown above is Mainland SEA. Burma/Myanmar is excluded from the map rework as I feel that the treatment I gave it during the development of Dharma still holds up. There will certainly be new content for nations in that region however, including what another dev fondly described as the “Shan mission stick” when we played MP this weekend.

The country setup has not been radically altered. The only new additions to the 1444 setup are the tribes inhabiting what is today the Central Highlands of Vietnam. I have, however, added many new provinces and increased the total development of the region significantly. According to the logs, the indo_china_region now contains 64 provinces with 542 total development. Note that these numbers, like all numbers presented in dev diaries, are not final. I’m especially satisfied with how Lan Na fits into its 5-province state, bordered on its west by impassable terrain. Speaking of impassable terrain, the Annamite Range now separates Vietnam from much of Laos, making Dai Viet a drastically more defensible nation.

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities. We’ll talk about various ways that this will be achieved another time, but one prerequisite for the goal is having nations to vassalize:


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Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.


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I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.


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Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!
 
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contains 64 provinces with 542 total development

in past versions, Vietnam often (I can say 80-90%) gets annexed by Lan Xang or even by Khmer or Champa, I think this is because too smaller development in North Vietnam( in fact, it has 4 to 8 times more population compared to Lan Xang or Siam at that time in 15th century), and also too little provinces and so make it very easy to be conquered when Vietnam starts a war against mountainous Lan Xang.
I think from this development diary, Vietnam is still very easy to be annexed by its neighbors, I feel disappointed about this smaller province overhaul of Vietnam and its split of provinces is weird to me.
后黎朝 1498.jpg

This map is Vietnam in 1498, if I have free time I would write a suggestion there.
 
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Luang Prabang, Atepeu, Xekong, Luang Namtha and Luang Prabang should be animist and Luang Prabang should be called Muang Sua at start (Maybe the one next to Prabang that used to be part of it and the new one next to Vietnam. Usure since I can´t see their names or terrain descriptions)

To provide some background to my claim:

Lao society is very diverse and so often affiliate with broader groups of people who share the same geographic conditions as the other.
These divisions are Lao: Sung (Highland; Mountains), Loum (Lowland; Vallies) and Theung (Midland; Hills)

This often informed the religous tendancies of the different regions wether one was more Satsana Phi (Animist) or Buddhist with the Loum being mostly Buddhist and the Sung and Theung being mainly Animist. Of course there is syncretisism but there were enough differences for the monarchs to implement favorable policies for buddhists over animists.

Buddhism itself while it had been a precense since Fa Ngum the religion didn´t begin to pick up steam until King Viosun in the 1500s who lead something of a golden age followed by king Photisarath who went so far as to undermine brahminic and animist religions entierly (He might have also been the one to make buddhism a state religion).

Savanh Nakhone, Atepeu and Xekong in this case would be Theung (Also many Degar migrated in between the territories of Khmer, Tay Ngyuen and southern Laos) This is also noticeable on a linguistic map. Atepeu and Xekong was fairly isolated at the time while Savang Nikhone though it does contain areas that would have been populated by valley people the province terrain designation. Furthermore Luang Namtha is a mountain region that saw continous influx of migrants who had similar animist traditions.
Luang Phrabang was also until the 16th century one of the main seats of power for the animists in the region so much so that the relic "Phra Bang" was kept in Vientiane instead of the capital. It was under King X that this changed when they moved the relic and changed the name from Muang Sua into Luang Prabang.

I have produced futher suggestions here, they detail this issue futher along with many more things:

Link:

Link:

Thank you, this is information I wasn't aware of before. I think I've got a good idea of how to represent this. I'll talk about it in a future dev diary.
 
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And yes culture groups in EU4 are messy and arbitrary. They're an eclectic mix of gameplay and historical considerations, bound by a very binary system. It's unfortunately just the nature of the mechanics and I don't see a change coming any time soon.



There will probably be some Champa content. Haven't written it yet but I'd like to create a small mission tree for them at least.

A bit radical but an awesome idea would be to create a stealth "Cham" Malayan culture that doesn't exist on the map but after Cham succesfully ventures forth and starts colonizing the islands again through a mission after say 5 colonies have been founded or something to that effect the mission could flip every Indochinese "Cham" culture province to the Malayan version of the culture, same name, but changes your primary culture to the new Malayan Cham

It could require that you own all Cham provinces, have done earlier missions encouraging naval build up and colonization and this reward could even prompt you via event "Are we an Empire ruling from the mainland or an empire reconnecting with the sea"

I'm sure you get overly ambitious suggestions all the time but something similar exists for the Manchu switching to Chinese I'm sure something can be done for the Cham who for some reason I've warmed up to a lot in all my reading about South East Asia and their connections to their Austronesian cousins. A fascinating people really
 
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Celestial Reforms fulfilling a very similar purpose right from the start

I dont want to argue with you, while I am aware that "Celestial Reforms" can cause great rebels that hard to be solved yet and have too small bonus when you make one "Celestial Reforms". And for Chinese empire can not become a revolution country in latest version, I think it is silly to hold the mandate.
 
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Please tell me there will be a Singapore province and a "form Indonesia" button or something, please. I dont think I can stand that incredibly ugly Malaya flag any longer :)
 
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allocating time for the Korean mission tree

When you make an ahistorical Korean mission tree, I can say your explain why dont do a Chinese mission tree is pale and weak, if you dont like China or dont know how to handle China, you could just speak out, it is of no significance to say that "Celestial Reforms" are enough, no one played as Ming can be blinded.

If you dont hope Ming China extension, you could just make a mission tree that focus inner affair such as more development or more economical bouns on China, not a tiny mission tree displayed now.
 
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Please tell me there will be a Singapore province and a "form Indonesia" button or something, please. I think I can stand that incredibly ugly Malaya flag any longer :)
It should not be Indonesia, but rather Nusantara. That's what local people call the archipelago region as. Indonesia is a modern name.
 
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When you make an ahistorical Korean mission tree, I can say your explain why dont do a Chinese mission tree is pale and weak, if you dont like China or dont know how to handle China, you could just speak out, it is of no significance to say that "Celestial Reforms" are enough, no one played as Ming can be blinded.

If you dont hope Ming China extension, you could just make a mission tree that focus inner affair such as more development or more economical bouns on China, not a tiny mission tree displayed now.
I prefer if you speak better english first before attacking the devs simply because you couldn't understand the explanation why neondt thinks giving Ming a mission tree will be bad.
 
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I'm really excited that SE Asia is FINALLY getting it's pass, will be the trigger for my next game in the asian region generally.

BUT I am a little curious, SE Asia is pretty much the last region in the game that needed an update and one is now incoming...I kind of expected an immersion pack for the region. Once it's in place, where does EU4 go next?

There's quite a lot EU4 could still do, actually:
  • Scandinavia and the Baltics weren't touched upon by the Emperor update, so Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Teutonic Order and Livonian Order are in need of mission trees. In general, the region would benefit from getting map changes and expansion of game mechanics to make the region more historically accurate (such as overhaul of the formable Scandinavia, playable Gotland from 1444, peasant estate for Sweden, and rework of the Hanseatic League to make it actually a viable rival for the Kalmar Union). This might also be a good place to give mission trees and unique national ideas for some of the German tags that didn't get such treatment in The Emperor update, especially the ones that were relevant for Scandinavian kingdoms (such as the Hanseatic cities, Oldenburg and Holstein).
  • The Caucasus region really could use an overhaul: a lot of North Caucasian states and most of the Georgian kingdoms are missing, as are the Circassian tribes, who've been lumped under an united tag under Orthodox religion despite having followed their native religion, Adyghe Habze, at the time. This would also be a good opportunity to allow for these nations to get mission trees: personally, I'd really like to see Georgia getting missions that allow the recreation of the Georgian Empire. Furthermore, with the inclusion of Cornish culture in 1.30, it seems that Paradox is now willing to represent small 1-province cultures, allowing Caucasus to be represented much better now, with small but historically important cultures such as Ossetian, Chechen, Lak, Avar and Lezgin cultures being actually plausible to be included in the game.
  • The Middle East really needs to be looked into. Most nations don't have mission trees, and it's rather rare to see the Timurid states collapsing and Persia forming as they historically did. Ardabil, Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunly especially need to be made more important, given that they were the main forces behind the formation of Persia. Oman also regularly underperforms in comparison to its historical achievements. It'd also be nice to see the Afsharids and the Durrani Empire pop up later in the game, and possibly allow for Hisn Kayfa to form the Ayyubids, and for Mamluks to have the Abbasids retake control in a Meiji Restoration-style event to recreate the Abbasid Caliphate.
  • Mission trees for the Eastern European tags (Poland, Lithuania, Muscovy, Novgorod & Russian minors) have been criticized quite a lot, and could receive adjustments. The regional set-up could also receive some adjustments, such as introducing some of the Ruthenian principalities as Lithuanian vassals, or introducing Kazan's Mari and Mordvin allies/vassals as playable tags. Muscovy/Russia and Novgorod in general would benefit from getting some adjustments: Novgorod doesn't really represent well how veche republics actually worked, while Russia would benefit from a better representation of Cossacks, conquest of the steppes and Siberia, and the demographic changes (in-game, Siberia almost always adopts Muscovite culture while the steppes retain their old nomadic culture, while historically the opposite happened, with the steppes being settled and thus overtaking the Tatars as the majority population while the Siberian tribes retained their old identies and the local majority after Russia's colonization of Siberia, even to this day).
  • The gameplay of Native American states and colonial nations haven't been touched on for years, and could really benefit from modernization with province layout changes, mission trees, unique national ideas, overhaul of their existing gameplay mechanics, religious mechanics for Totemist and Animist religions (or even splitting these religions to better represent the religious diversity in the New World), et cetera.
  • Africa has also been brought up as a region in need of an update. I've seen quite detailed suggestions for the update of Westernn Africa and Ethiopia/Horn of Africa, but I've also seen criticism of the set-up of the rest of Africa.
  • The Custom Nation feature has also been requested to get some more love, such as including the religions from CK2 converter as possible faiths for player-made religions.
 
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Still no plans for a Ming mission tree. During the development of the Manchu patch I considered whether it would be worthwhile to create one, but ultimately decided against it in favour of allocating time for the Korean mission tree. My reasoning was that there's very little design space for Ming missions because they're already so incredibly large and they have Celestial Reforms fulfilling a very similar purpose right from the start. I stand by that reasoning. In addition, it's only me on content design right now and if a Ming mission tree is going to be made it should ideally be made by someone who actually enjoys playing as Ming - I do not.

SEA map-rework is good, but I still want to say something off topic.

As a result, every piece of regions around Ming (China) has been reworked in map and mission trees now. Manchuria, Mongolia, Tibet, Southeast Asia, Bengal, Korea, Japan, and all other regional countries bordering China have a permanent claim mission "Invading China", but Ming cannot get any claim. "Because it is big enough, there is no need to conquer new land." Well, I will ignore the "small" mission tree that you provided to India from Persia to Sumatra. I am also no longer surprised that Austria, a historically unrelated country that owns the claim of China—"What? You have no claim of China and India? Are you really a European power?"

When I play Ming, in the face of permanent claims in all directions, I often have the illusion: What am I? Maybe a huge indigenous tribe, maybe a piece of meat waiting to be cut on a table.
 
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1) Do the Cham actually have that much in common with the Vietnamese and the Khmer? I understand they're in the region, and I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems like they had rather major cultural clashes with the Vietnamese during the timeframe of the game?

2) SEAsian and/or Indonesian and/or Austronesian unit sprites? Please?
 
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I wonder if we might have more formable tags, e.g. Angkor empire (ancient khmer at its glory, capital: Angkor), Viet Nam empire (or Dai Nam in vic2, include south and north Vietnam, capital: Hue), and philippines, etc.
And maybe rice replaces grain as new resource.
I love the rework so far and really happy to try it out once it's released. Although I'd prefer Dai Viet to be played like feudal Japan with new tags named as their house families. House of Le holds the highest title of king of Dai Viet and the capital, House of Mac , House of Trinh, House of Nguyen Phuc, House of Nguyen , House of Tran and House of Vu as Duchy rank (like daimyo), whoever hold the capital will declare as king and suffer coalition from all other houses. House of Trinh never usurped the throne of Dai Viet because of that reason.
The names of Tonkin, Cochinchina, Annam were called by the French, not by the natives. If you ask the vietnamese these names, they probably don't recognize them, which will break the immersion.
If you're interested in the life of western missionary in this region, I highly recommend searching for Pierre Pigneau de Behaine and Alexandre de Rhodes.
 
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I prefer if you speak better english first before attacking the devs simply because you couldn't understand the explanation why neondt thinks giving Ming a mission tree will be bad.
So let you watch my recognition about what neondt said about why there is only a tiny Chinese mission tree.

Still no plans for a Ming mission tree. During the development of the Manchu patch I considered whether it would be worthwhile to create one, but ultimately decided against it in favour of allocating time for the Korean mission tree. My reasoning was that there's very little design space for Ming missions because they're already so incredibly large and they have Celestial Reforms fulfilling a very similar purpose right from the start. I stand by that reasoning. In addition, it's only me on content design right now and if a Ming mission tree is going to be made it should ideally be made by someone who actually enjoys playing as Ming - I do not.

ultimately decided against it in favour of allocating time for the Korean mission tree.
He against a better Chinese mission tree, this is his atitude.

they're already so incredibly large
The first Explain for it, for Ming China is large in the first scanerio,so there is no any mission trees for all Chinese states and no need for better mission trees to these countries, according to this recognition there is also no need of new mission trees for Ottoman and Russia because they are enough huge.
Yes, Ming is large but only with 1100+ developments, we often watch the Mughul or some states from India, eat China from Himalayas, this is awful and suggest that "Ming is largeד but " Ming is a large piece of meat."

they have Celestial Reforms fulfilling a very similar purpose right.
Celestial Reforms can replace mission trees, Celestial Reforms are good enough to replace these permanent claims, to replace more points acquirement. If you just lose the Chinese emperor due to no possibility to become a revolution country by your own and make the experience worse, it is your fault, my design is enough good.
Please play Ming with this mechanism and live until 19th cenrtury.

it's only me on content design right now
I have no time to do an additional Chinese mission trees.

if a Ming mission tree is going to be made it should ideally be made by someone who actually enjoys playing as Ming - I do not.
Firstly,I dont enjoy playing as Ming, so I won't do an overhauled Chinese mission trees.
Secondly, Ming is what I don't like, left Ming there and make Mingplosion quickly is something good for me disregarding the history, Ming is hard to design so I gave up. (My guess)
Thirdly, if someone suggests a better Chinese mission trees according to my opinion, I might adopt it.

I believe that I have understood what neondt said, if you know why I cannot understand what neondt have said about this aspect, please reply me.
 
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And maybe rice replaces grain as new resource.
"Grain" encompasses all staple crops providing a convenient source of complex carbohydrates – sorghum, millet, rice, wheat, barley, rye, potatoes, maize, yams, cassava, etc.
 
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