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EU4 - Development Diary - 5th of March 2019

Good morning. As was foretold, I am back to talk about our thoughts on overhauling the map of the Balkans for the big end-of-year European update. Once again I’ll begin with a disclaimer that everything here is very much subject to change as we continue to listen to feedback and iterate on our own ideas throughout the year.

balkans_old.jpg


Behold: the Balkans in patch 1.4. And for reference, here are the Balkans as they are now, in patch 1.28:

balkans_new.jpg


The big change here is simply “more provinces”. Albania has been split up substantially, we have more Aegean Islands, and provinces density in Bulgaria is higher.

There is still, in my opinion, plenty of room for new provinces in Greece and Bulgaria. For the mainland we want to achieve a similar level of density as we see in Anatolia. One of the most obvious things we can do is split the Yanya province by adding Arta, one of the last Epirote cities to fall to the Ottomans. The return of the Epirus tag in 1444 heralds another change: the removal of the Corfu tag, at least in 1444. In the game right now, Corfu is a vassal of Venice and ruled by monarchs who were in fact the independent rulers of the Despotate of Epirus. This will change.

Other possibilities include a province that would more accurately reflect the Ottoman-Moldavian border in Silistria/Basarabia, a further split in the Aegean between Scio and Lesbos, and a separate province centered on the city of Tarnovo in Bulgaria.

greece_suggestion.jpg


This suggestion by Mingmung, and others very much like it, show a step in the right direction. Beyond what I’ve already mentioned, I like the idea of splitting Cephalonia from the Corfu province to add a little tactical depth to Epirus, as well as the addition of Corinth in the south. We are however unlikely to add extra provinces on Cyprus or Crete: outside of very large islands like Sardinia and Sicily we prefer to keep such places restrained to single provinces.

Moving north-west, there’s a lot that could be done in Serbia, Bosnia, and the Dalmatian coast. There’s room for a few more provinces of course, though not quite so many as we might need further south.

balkans_suggestion.jpg


This very aesthetically pleasing suggestion by ootats has a lot going for it. Representing Herzegovina/the Duchy of Saint Sava as a Bosnian vassal in 1444 is an interesting possibility. It also puts the province density on a level similar to that of Hungary, which I feel is a good target to aim for in the region. It is however unlikely that we’ll be adding both the Venetian provinces of Scutari and Cataro.

We’ve been reading your comments on the previous dev diary, and they’ve provoked a lot of discussion on Team Content Design. One of the results of these discussions is that we’re more open to a Como province that would split away from the northern part of what is now Milan. When the time comes for implementation it's certainly something we're willing to try out.

And that's all for today! Next week I invite you to join me on a wild ride through the confusing nightmarish mess that was Early Modern Germany. Until then, I look forward to more of your comments and suggestions.
 
Yeah, this is what i called sporadic :D Basically only the times of Ottoman expansion marked some cooperation/ connection between these countries, while Czech, Polish and Hungarian kingdoms formed the same time (around 1000 ad) and later under Habsburg rule the West Slavic and Hungarian people were part of the the same political entity for the second half of the game. Also, while this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_and_Hungarian_brothers_be) could rather be shown as a historical friendship, I don't think this region should have culture groups like those in western-europe: mostly based on language.
I would rather pack by geographical, historical, cultural aspects, there comes the Central-European and Balkanic (which is not completely South Slav even now, cuz of Albanians).
Well we agree then, I don't think culture groups should based on language either, and I think that historical, cultural and geographical aspects should be taken into consideration.

Where we disagree is that you think that having two groups, West Slavic and Balkanic, is enough, whereas I think there is ample space to have three groups: West Slavic, South Slavic and Danubian/Carpathian. Your proposals would lump Romanians with Albanians and Croatians, while they had no interactions during the timeframe.
You called my examples "sporadic", sure, why not, but at least they existed and in my view are enough to make an Hungarian-Transylvanian-Romanian group make sense.
 
Most of it is fine, even if maybe a bit simplified. There are two things that really stand
I would add the Dniester Estuary. It is damn uncrossable and a reason why Ottomans took Crimea - to secure a main way to cross Dniester in the region.
 
I read some Illyria above. EU4 timeline is what it is, and the only place where we should see this name it is in a good french mission tree. Something like: "We can't let Austrians interfere in Mediterranean Sea, we must conquer Illyria". No new formable needed in my opinion.

Exactly. Napoleon and the French really popularized the whole 'Illyria' thingy.
This is a nice map suggestion, I'd just change some province names and respective town / cities in them. A common thing that bothers me is that Smederevo and Branicevo (as it is in game now) are on both sides of Morava, which is wrong. Both the town and county are on west bank. Proposed changes are:

Šumadija - move border more to Belgrade in the north so it follows river Morava. Town should be Kragujevac with lvl 1 fort
Braničevo - rename it to Smederevo, with a lvl3 fort, capital province at the time
Toplica - rename it to Morava, as it is where is the source of the river and change border a bit to include Kruševac. Town should be also Kruševac (also a capital at one point in history).
Raška, Zeta / Duklja and Kosovo are fine. Concerning Kosovo, maybe Novo Brdo or Trepča should be towns, instead of Priština, as the former was mechant hub, the other a huge mine.
Morava - I really don't know why it was named here in southeastern Serbia, should be simply Niš with the same town.

Some dynamic province names around the Serbian border:

Macso - Mačva
Szerem - Srem
Bacso - Bačka
Torontal - Banat (Nagybecskerek > Veliki Bečkerek)
Cataro - Kotor
Scutari - Skadar
Durazzo - Drač
Lezhe - Lješ
Uskup - Skopje
Ohri - Ohrid

Oh, and it should be Donji Kraj not KrajI, as far as I know.

PS. Local speaking from Valjevo, nevermind the Norwegian flag.

Though some of the things you mentioned make sense, here's my elaboration on some decisions.
  • Kragujevac is really irrelevant to the first half of the game, while having Smederevo in Šumadija gives more strategic depth in my opinion.
  • I've kept Kruševac in Braničevo, as i considered the in-game Braničevo more of a Moravian Serbia heritage; under Lazar, Braničevo was a large province.
  • Toplica could be renamed to Pomoravlje or Morava, though i've kept Prokuplje as it's main city since it was still big enough in 1444, and for it's wine industry.
  • I named Niš area as Morava before i added Toplica, so it stuck. But i kept it because it borders the Kosovo-Pomoravlje district, so i thought it would be ok to keep it that way.
  • I am not fan of Priština in 1444, but it makes a lot of sense for post 1450s period. Doesn't make too much sense to have Novo Brdo as a metropole in 1700s. Serbs had dozens of royal courts in smaller towns in Kosovo, and Priština was one of them, so i don't complain too much. It is close enough to both Novo Brdo and Trepča anyway.
 
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In terms of provinces:

Yanya and Corfu and Corinth as mentioned. Add Thessaloniki, Gallipoli, and maybe another province in Thessaly or Athens to strengthen mainland Greece a bit.
I'd humbly suggest reconsidering Scutari and Cattaro, Venice really really needs the buff/provinces and they fought a bunch of wars with the Ottomans over this exact territory (well and Dalmatia, Morea, Crete, Cyprus, etc), plus another province for Albania is hardly a bad idea (bringing them up to four I think). I'd also suggest splitting Istria and Dalmatia in two, the former also taking some lands from neighboring provinces- say add Trieste, and then Zara, the former being an Austrian vassal city (or just owned by them) and the latter being Venetian while Dalmatia proper goes to Croatia as IIRC it was owned by them in 1444.
Also love the suggestion of adding mountains in the Balkans, if only to allow stronger resistance to the Ottomans- specifically the Dinaric Alps (aka "yet another needed buff to Venice's survivability") and the Carpathians to help Hungary's survival a bit.
 
I love this. Will we get missions, events and decisions for countries on Balkan? It would be a dream come true.
If you dont want to take a chance, head over to the suggestions subforum and make a suggestion! This would definetely improve the chances and the quality of the missions of your preferred nation(s).
 
I hope forming Romania will require provinces that actually make sense. Especially now, if Silistria is going to be split, I hope it's not overlooked, like when Târgoviște was split and forming Romania was moving capital from București to Târgoviște because they used to be one province before.
 
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Any plans in changing trade nodes? I feel that the Ragusa trade node is not an historically accurate representation of the trade in the Balkans/Eastern Mediterranean. Due to its proximity to HRE and connection to Wien there are tons of states with "steering inland" bonus it is very hard to efficiently steer trade from the east via Constantinople to Genoa/Venice which was traditionally a very important trade route in the Mediterranean. For example as Genoa, who was historically a huge trade power in the Black Sea, in order to steer trade you need to use all your starting merchants to steer from Crimea->Cons.->Ragusa->Genoa while losing so much value. As Venice, which was one of the main rivals of the Ottomans in controlling trade Eastern Mediterranean and fought countless wars for it in EU4's timeline it is more profitable to overlook Constantinople/Ragusa and focus in Alexandria. The Ottomans, who controlled the Aegean and Greece throughout EU4's timeline, you can never get value from these provinces in the game. My suggestion would be splitting the Ragusa node. The Aegean coast can be added to Constantinople, the Adriatic coast could be added to Venice, inland provinces can be added to Wien or can be made another trade node with the Eastern provinces from Wien node. Constantinople can flow directly into Genoa and Venice which, in my opinion, would better represent Eastern Mediterranean trade. I think there are many ways to improve Eastern Mediterranean trade as long as a way can be implemented in which HRE princes cannot take half of the trade with "steering inland" bonus through your only connection to Constantinople, thus Eastern trade.

TLDR: Ragusa node sucks, please rework it :).
 
@simden16 Making Ragusa the new Tibet trade node won't fix it. Though it could be tweaked here and there, it was quite important transitional area for trade between Constantinople and mainland Europe (as it kinda is right now).
 
Well we agree then, I don't think culture groups should based on language either, and I think that historical, cultural and geographical aspects should be taken into consideration.

Where we disagree is that you think that having two groups, West Slavic and Balkanic, is enough, whereas I think there is ample space to have three groups: West Slavic, South Slavic and Danubian/Carpathian. Your proposals would lump Romanians with Albanians and Croatians, while they had no interactions during the timeframe.
You called my examples "sporadic", sure, why not, but at least they existed and in my view are enough to make an Hungarian-Transylvanian-Romanian group make sense.

Yea, it's not without a reason, and it's obvious croations and romanians didn't have much contact, but Istill feel they are closer culturally.
I know it's not an arguement in itself, but there are hundreds of stuff like this: https://9gag.com/gag/a1ZMv8Y/how-do-you-know-you-live-in-balkan

Well, I few comments above i expressed my opinion about Transylvanian being nonsense, and should be eradicated (changed to hungarian). That would leave the group with two cultures, or three, if we keep Slovakia there, which is even more nonsense, since there's a West Slavic right now.
Also I don't think 3 culture group is needed, with such strong French, Germanic and East Slavic cultures around (at least Ottos are not in Levantine anymore).
I would even prefer Hungarian to be Korea style, alone, than the current version.
 
And again with the "rewriting history"...
I would have nothing against bosnian culture ingame, if there are even various german and french cultures, sure, but irl if your argument is that "Dobri Bosnjani" (which suddenly started existing after Bosnia got independence) were once or twice mentioned by someone, then today there should be like 30 nations on the balkans following that logics, Ragusans, Neretvans, Dalmatians, Slavonians, Rashans etc... because they were all also mentioned in various times as groups of people with their own subcultures. You cant just learn history, you also have to understand it so you avoid giving something a meaning it didnt have at that time, especially a country where even most noble families came from somewhere else.

Like that guy said, an event for bosnian culture would be good since bosnia is a relatively young country at game starting date.
I would also add an event for the bosnian church since its a unique thing.

How is Bosnia a relatively young country in that starting period? It may be a relatively young Kingdom, but it has been a Duchy sine 1154, so by the time the game starts it has a history of 300 years. One of the oldest, if not the oldest, state documents in South Slavic was written by the 2nd Ban of Bosnia Kulin Ban, which means that Bosnia was independent or semi-independent during his reign, and for most of it's history it was switching between the Byzantine Empire and Hungary. Bosnian Nobility was always on par with Nobility of Croatia and Serbia, and was never under the influence of either of them, in fact it was quite the opposite during the reign of 1st Bosnian King Tvrtko I.

As for the term Bošnjanin it appears in early 15th century in written form, in state documents of Bosnian Kings, so definitely during this time period. And even prior to that the people of Bosnia differentiated themselves from neighbours in Croatia and Serbia. By 1444 the term was cemented and started to evolve into Bošnjaci during this time period, not just by the heretic population but by the catholic population aswel. Catholic priests in Bosna Srebrena gave up their Bosniak identity only in late 19th century.

We can discuss this as much as we want, but in game a culture like Bosnian should be there. After all, the Bosnian people have had a lasting impact on the Balkans, and for it to not be there is insulting. Especialy considering what we have been through because our identity was denied for centuries, and even criminalised from 1908-1971.
 
balkans_suggestion.jpg


This is a nice map suggestion, I'd just change some province names and respective town / cities in them. A common thing that bothers me is that Smederevo and Branicevo (as it is in game now) are on both sides of Morava, which is wrong. Both the town and county are on west bank. Proposed changes are:

Šumadija - move border more to Belgrade in the north so it follows river Morava. Town should be Kragujevac with lvl 1 fort
Braničevo - rename it to Smederevo, with a lvl3 fort, capital province at the time
Toplica - rename it to Morava, as it is where is the source of the river and change border a bit to include Kruševac. Town should be also Kruševac (also a capital at one point in history).
Raška, Zeta / Duklja and Kosovo are fine. Concerning Kosovo, maybe Novo Brdo or Trepča should be towns, instead of Priština, as the former was mechant hub, the other a huge mine.
Morava - I really don't know why it was named here in southeastern Serbia, should be simply Niš with the same town.

Some dynamic province names around the Serbian border:

Macso - Mačva
Szerem - Srem
Bacso - Bačka
Torontal - Banat (Nagybecskerek > Veliki Bečkerek)
Cataro - Kotor
Scutari - Skadar
Durazzo - Drač
Lezhe - Lješ
Uskup - Skopje
Ohri - Ohrid

Oh, and it should be Donji Kraj not KrajI, as far as I know.

PS. Local speaking from Valjevo, nevermind the Norwegian flag.

I believe it is Donji KraJI not Kraj.
 
We can discuss this as much as we want, but in game a culture like Bosnian should be there. After all, the Bosnian people have had a lasting impact on the Balkans, and for it to not be there is insulting. Especialy considering what we have been through because our identity was denied for centuries, and even criminalised from 1908-1971.

No
 
Basically it was what it was historically - dev team represented it as they researched, then Ottomans came and messed up the area.
MESSED UP? They brought peace and prosperity to people cant live 5 years without butchering each other. Balkans enjoyed Pax Ottomana for 500 years approximately, learned how to make delicious döner kebabs, shish kebabs, yogurt, pastirma and other stuff.
 
MESSED UP? They brought peace and prosperity to people cant live 5 years without butchering each other. Balkans enjoyed Pax Ottomana for 500 years approximately, learned how to make delicious döner kebabs, shish kebabs, yogurt and other stuff.

Its gonna take those places that the Ottomans conquered, ruled, and got kicked out of, 500 years to recover and reach the European development levels. :p
 
Its gonna take those places that the Ottomans conquered, ruled, and got kicked out of, 500 years to recover and reach the European development levels. :p
Economies of Balkan countries were better before Ottoman Empire collapsed check the eco. articles about 19th century. Balkans still didnt reach European dev. levels only thing they did get paid from western European Countries (or Mother Russia) like the Greece is doing right now :p
You dont know maybe but Ottomans invested Balkans 10x more than Anatolia and they lost it in the end, what a fools..
 
MESSED UP? They brought peace and prosperity to people cant live 5 years without butchering each other. Balkans enjoyed Pax Ottomana for 500 years approximately, learned how to make delicious döner kebabs, shish kebabs, yogurt, pastirma and other stuff.

Sure.. the result is that its one of least developed parts of Europe. There was no peace - Ottos were in wars constantly and there was hardly any prosperity, if there was no Austria Balkan wouldn't see railroads until 1940 i think. Yeah, good job. Food is good tho :D
 
Fix primitive status, culture conversion with secondary faiths, and please sort out the trade problem. If you somehow don't know what I'm talking about, click my signature.