Improve the map of Anatolia

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Entrone

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Mar 27, 2016
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First question: Why?
Of course why not, but the most important aspect for me is the improvement of smaller tags and having more flavour in Anatolia.
In my opinion the Ottoman part of Anatolia is quite good, with the exception of the western coast. But other countries around are seeming to be lacking.

My ideas on how to change the province setup:

po4spg4gp


1. Trebizond
Trebizond was actually bigger than currently it is in the game, stretching farther west. If we correct this and take the eastern half of Canik, we get a very long province that can easily be broken up to three parts, and establish it's own 3-province Trebizond area. I also moved the original Pontic mountains Wasteland further north so it does not cover an inhabited valley but the high peaks, and added another, actually greater range to the east that restricts movement from the south to Trebizond and province Nr.1. Also Trebizond province currently produces Naval Supplies, that could be changed to Wine or Cloth.

Province Nr.1 stands for Rizunda. In this part Caucasian language speakers called Laz people formed a majority up until the 20th century. Since the game is strict on 1-province cultures they may be represented by Georgian, their cousins. Until the 17th century they were mostly Orthodox Christians, and Rizunda (what is the Greek name, Turkish: Rize; Laz: Rizini) was the seat of a diocese. Potential trade goods are Fish, Wine and Wool. Terrain could be Plains or Hills, having both.

Province Nr.2 stands for Cerasous (Turkish: Giresun), another province with Pontic culture and Orthodox faith, it was diocese aswell. I find it strange that currently there are 2 Pontic culture provinces around Crimea but only 1 in Anatolia, their main base. Trade goods may be Grain, Fish, Wine or Nanal Supplies, and the terrain looks like Highlands or Hills.


2. Western Anatolia
There I decided to redraw a few provinces to represent regions better. Hüdavendigar would get 1 more province, and I reorganized Aydin and Germiyan, adding a new 3-province state, Antalya (Hamid, Antalya and Teke). Another changes are, Saruhan lost it's coastline to Sugla, which in turn ceded it's southern part to Aydin which now has a port. Regarding the cultures, I find the complete abscence of Greeks incorrect, therefore I'd change at least Sugla and Mentesha to Greek, as these are coastal provinces anyways, but potentially also Biga and Aydin, these two are a matter of aspect, I'm fine with both version.

Province Nr.3 is Karasi, which was an independent, quite strong beylik before Ottoman conquest. Turkish culture and Sunni faith, with potential trade goods of Wine, Grain and Livestock and terrain of Plains.

Province Nr.4 is Teke (capital Megri), with the old, reduced Teke provine renamed to Antalya after it's capital. Another Sunni Turkish province, producing Fish, inheriting the Highlands terrain of old Teke, now Antalya which in turn should be changed to Plains. Teke and Antalya should have another releaseable beylik: Teke.


3. Adana
I broke Adana straigh up to 3 provinces, because it was an enormous province even though it was quite important and densely populated. Also added another Wasteland, the Taurus mountains, with peaks higher than 3000 meter, that restricts direct movement from Karaman province. While it still fits Cukorova state, these 3 provinces could also form a Cilicia/Adana area with Icel province going to Karaman and Cyprus to form 'Eastern Mediterranean Islands' with Rhodes and Crete. A releaseable tag for Cilicia would be great.

Province Nr.5 is Kozan/Sis (Armenian: Sissu), the former being the Turkish name, the latter the Turkish version of the Armenian name. While the state religion of Ramazan is Sunni, this province should definately be Coptic religion, and preferably Armenian culture, as they formed a majority there up until the genocides. Trade good may be Wine and the terrain Highlands.

Province Nr.6 is Mersin (Greek: Myrsine, Armenian: Myrsini), which contains two important historic settlements: Tarsus and Mersin. I choose Mersin because it's farther from the border and because it became bigger through the time, but Tarsus (Greek: Tarsos, Armenian: Tarson) was also very important. This province could either remain Sunni Turkish or change to Coptic Armenian. Since I'd change Adana province to Coptic Armenian, this one could remain Turkish to represent them in the region. Another option is to create a 3-province culture called Cilician, that could either be in the Levantine, but I think rather in the Caucasian group. Although I'd prefer to simply change provinces to Coptic Armenian, not worrying about cultural exclaves. Trade good is Cotton just like in Adana, and the terrain could be similarly Drylands, but I feel like both should change to Plains, since they are not dry by Anatolian standards.

Province Nr.7 is Iskanderun (Greek, Armenian and Western: Alexandretta), while technically not Anatolia, I included it because during the scope of the game it was one of the most important Ottoman trading ports, with important links to Western Europe (particularly Genoa and Venice, but even as far as England). Sunni Syrian province with potential trade goods of Fish, Naval Supplies and Cloth, and the terrain either Drylands or Hills.

4. Aq Qoyunlu
Originally I didn't want to touch this part, but then I realized its also in need of some polishing. Since Trebizond now can form it's own state, Erzurum area would be left with only two provinces, tough enormous ones. So I took the chance and improved Erzurum, by adding 1 more province and splitting the southern part of Erzincan. Now the three province makes up a correct Erzurum area, while the cut part formed into another province and joins the bordering southern area. But oh-oh there are already 5 provinces in the bordering Kurdistan, so I decided to split it up as it sounds ahistorical anyways. Mush and Bitlis with Van, province which is not on the pic now forms the 3province 'Van Lake' area, and the new Nr.8 with Diyarbekir, Mardin and Hisn Kayfa forms Diyarbekir area, which was an Ottoman Vilayet.

Province Nr.8 is Kharput or Harput (Armenian: Kharpert) is there to correct the Erzurum-Diyarbekir border. The province itself may be Sunni and either Kurduish or Armenian. While can't be seen in Eu4, there flows the Euphrates and this region was very agricultural, making it ideal for Grain trade good. Terrain is clearly Highlands.

Province Nr.9 is Bayburt (Armenian: Baydbert, Greek: Paipert), once an important town on the Silk Road in the Valley of the Chorokhi river. It should be Coptic Armenian with a Trebizondine core on it. Terrain could be Highlands or Drylands, producing Wool.

5. Miscellaneous

Areas

I've drawn a map of how I imagine the reworked areas of Anatolia. Light Green is Antalya, Turquise is Trebizond, Blue is Erzurum, White is Van Lake and Yellow is Diyarbekir:
pndZ61Urp



Culture & Religion
A few years ago Turkish culture was moved to the Levantine group, which made the life of the Ottoman players easier, as Arab Levantine cultures are automatically accepted if they upgrade to Empire rank. Now that's not just a bit inaccurate but also a needless boost in my opinion, in case there is another opportunity. Since no other surrounding culture group fits them really well, they shouldn't join those, and making Turkish a lonely 1-culture group is also not desirable. But what if we find another culture that could join Turkish in an Anatolian group?

I think the Turkomans are just perfect for the role. Speaking Oghuz-Turkic language like the Ottomans and their namesakes, the Turkmens, but arrived later to the region than the Ottomans and kept more distinctive turkic culture traits than them. They inhabit the area controlled by Dulkadir in 1444: Divrigi, Malash, Malatya and Ayntab. So these 4 provinces should have this culture with Dulkadir itself as main tag. Contemporary map shows their presence around historical Dulkadir in dark green:
3e0b87db25d855f6ebaf4dda2cb05978.jpg

So I propose to create an Anatolian culture group with Turkish, Turkoman (and maybe Cilician?) in it.

About Laz people, I find Georgian culture a working compromise, and I would really love to see 2 Pontic provinces in Trebizond, but Western Anatolia has long been a hot topic.
I'd pick Biga, Sugla, Aydin and Mentesha to change to Greek, since these were close to Greek majority even after 500 years, before the genocides and population changes. The rest should stay Sunni Turkish, with one exception:
It is worth mentioning are the Karamanlides. While their origin is not sure, they were Orthodox Christian people using Turkic langauge around Karaman province:
Karamanlides_homeland.png

So it would be good to change the religion in Karaman province to Orthodox, while leaving the culture Turkic, creating the only such province.

Additional maps:

For reference to the wastelands and terrains there's an elevation map:
glj1ofgbq2wgYk8i2unoR-rFdrztbimmyEd1uDZjsE8.jpg


Ottoman Vilayets in the 1609 (Diyarbekir highlighted):
Diyarbarik_Eyalet%2C_Ottoman_Empire_%281609%29.png


The Anatolian Beyliks of the 14th century:
Beylicats_d%25u2019Anatolie_vers_1330-en.svg


Trebizond around 1400:
600px-Trebizond1400.png


Adana Vilayet:
mapa_adana_vilayet_ENG_web.jpg



Thanks for reading, feel free to add anything valueable :)

Edit: Wastelands of the Pontic Mountains redrawn to reflect the pass better.
 
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reivaj89

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Very interesting and well-thought post. May I ask, what would you think of changing Aq Qoyunlu's primary culture to Turkoman as well?

I don't know about creating a new Anatolian culture group with just Turkish or Turkoman, in my (very unpopular apparently) opinion the Levantine group is fine for gameplay purposes. Maybe though it could be split into Levantine (Turkish and Turkomans plus Levantine Arabs) and Arabian (Southern Arabian cultures like Bedouin, Yemeni, Omani, etc). I'm not an expert but I'm under the impression that there were big enough cultural differences between the Arabic-speaking peoples of the Levant and the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula itself.
 
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Entrone

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Mar 27, 2016
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Very interesting and well-thought post. May I ask, what would you think of changing Aq Qoyunlu's primary culture to Turkoman as well?
Thank you :)
Actually yes, according to the sources I red, Aq Qoyunlu had a turkoman ruling elite.
I don't know about creating a new Anatolian culture group with just Turkish or Turkoman, in my (very unpopular apparently) opinion the Levantine group is fine for gameplay purposes. Maybe though it could be split into Levantine (Turkish and Turkomans plus Levantine Arabs) and Arabian (Southern Arabian cultures like Bedouin, Yemeni, Omani, etc). I'm not an expert but I'm under the impression that there were big enough cultural differences between the Arabic-speaking peoples of the Levant and the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula itself.

I also don't think Levantine group is that bad, but if there's a chance I think it should be separated.
Since Kurds are in the Iranian group and Pontic in Greek, this sets the whole region to be determined by language, therefore a separate Arabic from Syrian to Omani and a Turkic group with Turkish, Turkoman and maybe Azeri could work (but not more, Turkmens while being Oghuz turks rather belong to the Altaic group).
Another idea is the Anatolian group with Turkish, Turkoman, Armenian and Kurd, but I guess that would be very very unpopular.

On the other hand, in these cases the Ottomans would need a mechanic to get all the Arabic cultures as accepted (could be how Austria accepts Czech, Slovak, Hungarian and Croatian without sharing a group with any of them).
 
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reivaj89

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a separate Arabic from Syrian to Omani and a Turkic group with Turkish, Turkoman and maybe Azeri could work
Actually, now that I think about it this could work (though I'd leave Azeri in the Persian group). Ottoman rule in the Middle East was quite decentralized and way more hands-off than in the Balkans, for example, so it makes sense that they get unaccepted culture penalties in Arab provinces (and they can always promote the larger cultures like Egyptian). What I don't know is how much of a nerf would this be for them, after all we don't want them to become a paper tiger ;)
 
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Entrone

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Mar 27, 2016
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You are right, Azeri is fine in the Iranian group. Despite linguistic connection they are really distant and were influenced by different cltures.
While some cultures could be accepted manually, some event or mission could help the Ottomans to get accepted cultures at least for Syrian and Egyptian when they conquer it, like Austria gets for central european cultures. This could stop the Ottomans from being weakened substantially.
 
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AirikrStrife

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AirikrStrife

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but since the topic of greeks in anatolia been brought up, there's been massive threads about it before, and the proof established is that turks were the majority in the anatolian coast already in 1444
 
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Entrone

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just marketing my suggestion thread which covers kurdish parts of the balkans https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...egion-with-focus-on-religious-groups.1444974/
You mean the middle east :D
Actually I was looking for this but didn't find cuz you didn't update your signature :p
Wanted to mention how together the two suggestion covers nice this territory. Yazidis would be nice to see.

but since the topic of greeks in anatolia been brought up, there's been massive threads about it before, and the proof established is that turks were the majority in the anatolian coast already in 1444

I think at least 1-2 province should represent their presence, they definately made up a decent part of the population there. Sugla/Smyrna is obvious, and Mentesha or Biga are other strong candidates.
 
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Entrone

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Just realized that the pass between the Pontic Mountains is wrong, there is the updated version, which makes terrain even more precarious:
po4spg4gp

Now from Bayburt province it's not possible to go straight to Trebizond, but first to Cerasous.
Movement between Tao and Rize is also prohibited now, have to go through Guria.

a well detailed elevation map:
glj1ofgbq2wgYk8i2unoR-rFdrztbimmyEd1uDZjsE8.jpg

It can be seen that the eastern part of the Pontic Mountains are more serious, and the pass is not south, but southwest of Trebizond.

my older version:
po6WS24zp
 
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withche.07

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Honestly I didn't like these
1. changes in aegean coastal provinces
2. Karamanlides getting represented

When we consider pop data from 1500s only region with huge Greek Orthodox community near to Muslims was around Suğla, that's not wrong, but Suğla province is big that's why its represented as Turkish. I think instead of complete transition to Greek, there could be triggered events which may make it turnable to Greek Orthodox (Like Byzantium conquering it or Ottomans having high unrest around)

Laz culture and province is definitely missing, they should start with Orthodox that's for sure but overtime even in pop data they were converts to Islam, so I support Ottomans having mission there to convert them easily.
I think there is no necessity for Giresun there as historical Ottoman sanjak called Gümüşhane is missing. It should have silver as resource.

I liked your idea about Turcomans I actually wanted representation of Yörüks in game as distinct culture
But they weren't majority in anywhere west, they were generally in north Teke-Hamid area. But I think Dulkadir Turcomans/Yörük addition would be pretty much plausible. Ottomans even had Yörük sanjak in Balkans. Ottomans used them to promote Oghuz culture in conquered lands. For example modern day Gagauz in Moldovia very likely have Yörük descent.
I am from Antalya btw and we have former Yörük community here that talks Turkish in rather different accent. Even there are some nomadic Yörüks still change places according to climates etc

about other releasable beyliks in Anatolia and provinces in east I had some ideas which you may use (in my signature) I actually suggested more releasable beyliks, some formable for Armenia in Anatolia and some new Kurdish nations in east.

But in overall it's right that Karesi province is missing. Also Alaiye province is missing and beylik could exist there in 1444 start. I may comment more on them if I find time.
 
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master_kong

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I think instead of complete transition to Greek, there could be triggered events which may make it turnable to Greek Orthodox (Like Byzantium conquering it or Ottomans having high unrest around)
Greek population in İzmir/Smyrna grew with Greek migrations during this time frame under Pax Ottomana. So high unrest wouldn't model it well I think :)
Ottomans used them to promote Oghuz culture in conquered lands. For example modern day Gagauz in Moldovia very likely have Yörük descent.
AFAIK Gagauz Turks were settled there during the Seljuk era. But of course, Ottomans did use Yörüks in that region for their settling policy.
 
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Entrone

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When we consider pop data from 1500s only region with huge Greek Orthodox community near to Muslims was around Suğla, that's not wrong, but Suğla province is big that's why its represented as Turkish. I think instead of complete transition to Greek, there could be triggered events which may make it turnable to Greek Orthodox (Like Byzantium conquering it or Ottomans having high unrest around)
Stance towards minority cultures may depend on attitudes of different people. In my case, I want as much minorities ingame represented as possible, hence I find it innaccurate that there's not a single Greek culture province in Western Anatolia, like they didn't even exist here. Imo atl east Sugla should flip to greek (maybe in turn for Edirne).
Alternatively there could be an event for the Ottomans, which (if the player choose so) changes the culture of several provinces (other examples may be Edirne to Turkish, Siroz to Bulgarian, etc..)

About the Karamanlides, what's the problem? As I red they had Orthodox faith throughout the timescope of the game.
Greek population in İzmir/Smyrna grew with Greek migrations during this time frame under Pax Ottomana. So high unrest wouldn't model it well I think :)
Now this may be true, but I highly doubt that Sugla/Smyrne would have Turkish majority for a long time, between two strong greek majority eras (Byzantine and 20th century). Besides as I told before, I find it justified to turn at least one province to greek, whether they may had an absolute majority there or not. It's definately true that there were a lot of Greeks in Anatolia until the 20th century, and in abscence of ancient demoghraphic censuses, everything else is just (often biased) hypothesis. Including that Pax Ottomana was such a beautiful era that essentially second class citizen orthodox people were migrating in such great numbers to muslim dominated areas.

Before someone starts crying again (the first, since deleted commenter was such a hypocrite) that it's anti turkish or anything, I want to clarify my aim is to make the region less homogenous (as it was quite multicultural). And, since whole western Anatolia is turkish, there's no other possibility but to flip turkish provinces. Naturally other side of the coin, Turkish colonization of the balkans should also be represented, but it is already, similarly with 1 province (Edirne) turning Turkish.

Laz culture and province is definitely missing, they should start with Orthodox that's for sure but overtime even in pop data they were converts to Islam, so I support Ottomans having mission there to convert them easily.
I think there is no necessity for Giresun there as historical Ottoman sanjak called Gümüşhane is missing. It should have silver as resource.
Laz probably won't get added, as the game is strict on 1 province cultures. Instead they might be rerpesented with Georgian, what I find acceptable. If Lazes somehow manage to be in the game, then that mission could make sense, otherwise not.

I don't get why Giresun would depend on Gümüshane. Giresun is there to perfect the borders of Trebizond and to cut Trebizond province itself down a bit to size, besides now there are 3 provinces for a state.
Actually I think Gümüshane is inside that wasteland. There's no silver trade good, and not every silver mine should be represented by gold good. But I red that there were copper mines aswell.

about other releasable beyliks in Anatolia and provinces in east I had some ideas which you may use (in my signature) I actually suggested more releasable beyliks, some formable for Armenia in Anatolia and some new Kurdish nations in east.

But in overall it's right that Karesi province is missing. Also Alaiye province is missing and beylik could exist there in 1444 start. I may comment more on them if I find time.
I'm glad you like the Yörüks/Turkomans, they could bring some more flavour to the region.
Regarding Karasi, my main aim was to cut Biga down to size, and Karasi is a pretty permanent province there.

If you find time and good sources, feel free to share with us :)
 
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Mingmung

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I think you should adhere to Sanjak/administrative borders as much as possible.
 

Entrone

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I think you should adhere to Sanjak/administrative borders as much as possible.
Most of the sanjaks were founded after 1840, before that existing administrative units were often bigger than eu4 provinces.
Therefore, while tryna converge towards them, I didn't find it too important to stick as much as possible.