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CO Word of the Week #13

Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
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Geez, there must be something wrong with me because I have played CS 2 for slightly over 100 hours now and I find it a very useful tool to release my creativity and also to mellow out from stress while listening to Zen music while I play. I am still learning how to construct better major traffic interchanges, more interesting communities and neighborhoods--I just LOVE THIS GAME as it is and I know it will get even better over time!
This is a good game as city painter, but it is bad as simulation game. I mean I don't feel that my actions inpact anything or that it is a real city (in simulation sense).
Visually this game is good and I do think that assets will be added in the future, I am not worried about that part.
But I am really worried about simulation part, not sure if simulation can be changed drastically without major rework of the whole approach. I am not sure that it is viable for the company from financial side to spend resources on such rework and rethinking.

So for now I a bit skeptical, but I want to be wrong on this part.
 
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Last week it was an admitted "teleporting stuff" in some corner cases, now it's an admitted "despawning people and stay at home" in some other corner cases. It does no longer look like a simulation. I wonder why I'm putting efforts to make my city a livable place. At least, you're limpid on the fact that you don't care about challenge. I'll just wait for a mod to get rid of these non-sense tricks for idiots desperately needing to feel smart, and then I may finally be able to see my city become a total mess due to my ineptitude.
 
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Last week it was an admitted "teleporting stuff" in some corner cases, now it's an admitted "despawning people and stay at home" in some other corner cases. It does no longer look like a simulation. I wonder why I'm putting efforts to make my city a livable place. At least, you're limpid on the fact that you don't care about challenge. I'll just wait for a mod to get rid of these non-sense tricks for idiots desperately needing to feel smart, and then I may finally be able to see my city become a total mess due to my ineptitude.
Yes, I also want to see consequences of my failures. I want to see impacts of my decisions. If I created bad districts with bad infrastructure I want to see this place struggle financially while other district with better infrastructure prosper at same time.
Now I don't feel this. I also don't feel that ublic transport would make any difference in district prosperity and efficiency.
 
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This claim is just baseless. There is actually no limit, unlike in CS1, and in fact everything the game does is a ridiculous upscale from the previous game that just fakes everything instead of trying to simulate anything. Yes, it's not a perfect game in many ways but please at least provide criticism that makes some kind of a sense.
There is a soft limit that increases with the square root of population. For large numbers it is close to a static limit. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/the-traffic-system-is-a-cheat.1607017/
 
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Q2. If the asset editor for public release is so broken it's possibly months away from being released, how are CO adding assets to the game now? Are you using another tool or simply some monumentally slow workaround? It might be my own ignorance but I really don't understand how in developing a game like this you haven't had a working editor since way back because it's a tool you'd use yourselves.
Devkit, which is not even slightest meant to be available for public.
 
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Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
Hi Mariina,
I really hope that there will be some news and deep explanations regarding zone demands and to understand it. I think that this matter involves also to write clear the parameters that are moving that indicators, land value included. I feel that the alerts that are given in the game, in the happiness of in the buildings info aren’t enough.
Thank you in advance.
 
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This claim is just baseless. There is actually no limit, unlike in CS1, and in fact everything the game does is a ridiculous upscale from the previous game that just fakes everything instead of trying to simulate anything. Yes, it's not a perfect game in many ways but please at least provide criticism that makes some kind of a sense.
There is a limit though… There is reverse logarithmic scaling on agents…
 
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Respectfully, you asked for civility by telling us (and Engadget) that the community was toxic and that we were the problem, are you really shocked that made people more upset given the state of the game and the absence of refunds and lack of communication on substantive fixes to the game? This is the recipe for frustration and toxicity and the current approach isn't making things better, the community and the influencers are all upset and putting the game down, potentially for good.
Corporate gaslighting is fun!
 
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It’s important to remove hostility and ad hominem attacks from an online community…it is toxic, and there’s no reason to tolerate it. I completely support removing these types of comments and banning those who insist on making them.

What I do not understand is why the entire community gets chastised for the inappropriate behavior of a few individuals. It’s import too to remember that a lot of teens play this game, and they may not understand yet how to appropriately express themselves. Speaking again as a YouTuber, I will address criticism if I feel like it’s necessary…but I will ignore and ban trolls. I will not treat critics the same as I will treat trolls. Criticism, whether I agree or not, is valid to express. Lashing out against the negatively publicly like CO has looks bad, and feels unprofessional to me.
Well said Lee. The main problem is that CO already know this, and are using it to their advantage to suppress any and all criticism under the guise of “toxicity”.
 
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This is a good game as city painter, but it is bad as simulation game. I mean I don't feel that my actions inpact anything or that it is a real city (in simulation sense).
Visually this game is good and I do think that assets will be added in the future, I am not worried about that part.
But I am really worried about simulation part, not sure if simulation can be changed drastically without major rework of the whole approach. I am not sure that it is viable for the company from financial side to spend resources on such rework and rethinking.

So for now I a bit skeptical, but I want to be wrong on this part.
I don’t understand why people still think this game is good as a painter? It doesn’t have props, detailing tools, any real abilities to customize anything, and was even a downgrade from CS1 remastered which introduced find-it and a prop-line tool. And that is not even mentioning the abysmally small collection of assets it shipped with. One train station, one elementary school, roughly one or two (or even zero) assets per zone-size…
 
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And no themes or texture variations AT ALL for maps… Maybe it will be DLC? But for now, the only city you can “paint” is a very hyper specific North American car-dependent wasteland. And it will look like everyone else’s North American car-dependent wasteland because there is no way to differentiate your city without the tools and assets to do so.
 
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I don’t understand why people still think this game is good as a painter? It doesn’t have props, detailing tools, any real abilities to customize anything, and was even a downgrade from CS1 remastered which introduced find-it and a prop-line tool. And that is not even mentioning the abysmally small collection of assets it shipped with. One train station, one elementary school, roughly one or two (or even zero) assets per zone-size…
At least mods and more assets can fix this issue that you mention, but there should be bigger effort from developers to fix remake base simulation and logic of some gameplay elements.
 
From an outsider's point of view, the current game version is 1.0.19f1. Using semantic versioning, the game is currently at MAJOR version 1, MINOR version 0, and PATCH version 19.

An increase in the MAJOR version would mean this game has received a substantial expansion update (DLC, expansion that alters the base game, etc.)
An increase in the MINOR version would mean this game has received some new contents to the base game (new contents, new assets, new features, etc.)
An increase in the PATCH version would mean this game has received bugfixes or hotfixes to address some game issues (no new contents, no new assets, only bugfixes, etc.)

Given that we're still on 1.0.X, I can say the base game hasn't received changed all that much since the beginning.

Anyone wanted to say the next update will be 1.1.X? Or will we still get some 1.0.X patch updates later on?
 
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I'm going to get so many negative reactions to this post, but thank you CO, CO CEO, and devs. Y'all rock.

To the CEO - Mariina, lead through this storm with conviction in your product This is a good, albeit buggy, simulation. Forget the haters.

To the Devs - just keep chugging through the bugs. There is a light at the end of this tunnel. Don't stop believin'.
Sadly, I stopped believin'. Also stopped believin' in the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny and Santa. But if, One day, I see all 3 of them dancing on my front lawn, maybe I'll try this game again.
 
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At least mods and more assets can fix this issue that you mention, but there should be bigger effort from developers to fix remake base simulation and logic of some gameplay elements.
Just because they can fix these issues with mods and assets, doesn’t mean they should be relied on. Didn’t the marketing materials say that we could “build Tokyo, build Cairo, etc.” ?

How do we build Tokyo without any semblance of Asian architecture? How do we build Cairo without a sand or desert texture?


It is extremely barebones and should NOT be considered a city painter. It is like a paint by numbers kit, but you are only shipped blue paint and the rest of the paint has to be slowly delivered to your door over the next 10 years.


I’m not saying we needed everything day one, but when you consider all of the art (growables) was outsourced anyways - https://www.mobygames.com/game/210740/cities-skylines-ii/credits/windows-apps/ It would have been nice to see them include more than the absolute bare minimum for players to create something other than “generic North American hell-scape”


It is just a minimum viable product, and a broken one at that…
 
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