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CO Word of the Week #13

Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
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Every week, again and again, I am simply baffled by your Words of the Week. You always claim you want to interact with the community, yet you completely choose to ignore the community. You answer "questions" that most seasoned CS-players (the majority on this forum are seasoned, not new players) already know the answer to. You completely ignore the real questions, frustrations and sentiment that lives in your community.

You made it really clear that these Words of the Week are only continuing because Paradox kind of made you do it ("we received a phone call from Sweden"), and it really shows. These WotW's are becoming more and more bland, could have been written by ChatGPT, and completely lack any human emotion. Even if Paradox made you do this, just make the most of it! Because this way you are only losing more and more of CO's reputation.

Yes, you claimed there isn't really any news until the next patch. But, there is! Let me give you a couple hints for the next WotW:
  • Job openings: people have seen that you have 4 job openings for senior personnel. You could've written a whole post about it. And please don't say that isn't a topic people would be interested in this. People have been asking for you to expand your team for months now. It would actually be a WotW that would be welcomed by the community, and you would for once get kudo's
  • The streamers: come on. Everyone has seen the numerous YouTube-video's from well known streamers. Address the issue!
  • It's been a couple of weeks since the last patch. You could give some insights what has been worked on. We get that you don't have a weekly update on bug fixes. But you must have made a bunch of progress since the last patch.
 
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Hello, any word about the perceived "lacking challenge" or "nothing matters" from a big part of the community and content creators?


Are there any plans to make a more challenging mode with impactful consequences in the future?
 
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Dear Colossal Order Dev Team, I've never had any reason to comment until now, but this word of the week is pretty much useless. You could've just created a FAQ page and answered the questions there.

Anyway, I will try my best to be a bit more constructive.

First of all it would be nice to receive bi-weekly (or even weekly) patches for the game, because the game is just not fun. It get's boring really fast and the lack of assets or variations of the existing assets limits replayibility massively. For example the train station is either too big or too small for most use cases. We should at least get a suburban smaller station or a bigger version of the existing one.

The base game needs to be fixed, before you release any dlc's. We all have noticed that you already integrated a ton of feautures from the CS1 dlc's into the base CS2 game, but it all feels sometimes useless due to them only being partially implemented.

I know that you are all under a lot of stress, but please just listen to the community before you run your reputation into the ground. It would be nice if you would pull a "No man's sky" or a "Linus Tech Tips" moment off, because the base game really has a lot of potential.

Nevertheless thank you for all your work until now.
 
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Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!
My question is when are you going to address the anger in the community? Or issue a full apology for the release?
 
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Excuse my language but holy shiz! I'm pretty mad... these WOTWs are so useless! Again, you confirm what everyone already knew- the simulation is completely faked with tons of failsafes to prevent anything from actually happening if you're not doing well. If there is somehow a traffic jam, then citizens will just start despawning instead of adding to the traffic jam, which will eventually just clear up the jam and solve your issue.

And let me get this straight, you noticed while developing that too many agents was making the game slow down, so instead of like fixing it, you just tried to take their cars away? So they wouldn't try to pathfinder and add to the simulation load? But then that didn't work so you just made them like sit at home and do nothing?? I honestly question who is making these terrible choices. None of it makes any sense in a SIMULATION game!

And then you admit that education isn't balanced... Is this something you noticed before or after everyone else who played pointed it out? If it's after, how did you not notice this before and fix it? Why isn't it fixed yet??

And why aren't you answering any of these questions that EVERYONE is asking??????

I think I'm gonna just give up and move on. Steam keeps denying my refund, so looks like I'm just out 90 dollars... who knows when I'll be getting that dlc
 
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Hello, any word about the perceived "lacking challenge" or "nothing matters" from a big part of the community and content creators?


Are there any plans to make a more challenging mode with impactful consequences in the future?
The design team is looking into this and we'll communicate about it when we have something concrete to share.

My question is when are you going to address the anger in the community? Or issue a full apology for the release?
The release has been discussed on multiple occasions and we have expressed that we are sorry for not meeting the expectations. We are not sorry to have released the game and we are proud to have overcome multiple issues during development, that was the most challenging we've ever faced. With that said, there is still a mountain to climb and we're working on the game; bugfixes and improvements, modding support, the promised DLC for the Ultimate Edition and the missing platforms. We believe the best way forward is to keep working on the game and learn from the mistakes. There are people playing Cities: Skylines II and we're committed to them and to this game.

Yes, you claimed there isn't really any news until the next patch. But, there is! Let me give you a couple hints for the next WotW:
  • Job openings: people have seen that you have 4 job openings for senior personnel. You could've written a whole post about it. And please don't say that isn't a topic people would be interested in this. People have been asking for you to expand your team for months now. It would actually be a WotW that would be welcomed by the community, and you would for once get kudo's
  • The streamers: come on. Everyone has seen the numerous YouTube-video's from well known streamers. Address the issue!
  • It's been a couple of weeks since the last patch. You could give some insights what has been worked on. We get that you don't have a weekly update on bug fixes. But you must have made a bunch of progress since the last patch.
We have agreed not to release any information that is not concrete and could cause further disappointment. When it comes to the streamers (and community) we have received the feedback and it's taken into account. Before there are any concrete results we're not able to share it. Progress is being made and it will be communicated. We have not abandoned the game. Thanks for the feedback on the open positions, didn't think of that!

They've already apologized. The problem is they don't want to spend any of our hard earned revenue to hire additional engineers to fix the problems more quickly than a normal QC patching process will allow.

The deeper issue, however, IMO, is that they need a game optimized for consoles in addition to PCs. I'd love to know how much revenue comes from console sales. If they give PCs the game they deserve, it will leave consoles and older PCs in the dust. We got that version of CS1 through free-for-all modding on Steam. But there were a different set of problems on Steam ... it's the Wild West out there. So we're waiting for a streamlined moderated modding community.


But IMO they really need to release two versions of the game designed and optimized for different types of machines.
9 women can't make a baby in one month is probably a good way to describe the situation we've faced. Unfortunately throwing money at a problem doesn't always solve issues. With that said we are indeed looking to strengthen the team and we wish to find suitable people to work with us so we can speed up the development in the long run.

Consoles are something we've committed to at announcement, but as those are not available to purchase there's no revenue from them. All the optimizations required for it will benefit the PC. We believe we can find places to still optimize the game further without dumbing down the simulation. Though it also requires work for different reasons.

For people who have bought CS1, all its DLC, and those that play on PC and only ever played it with 100 mods minimum, which i would guess includes a good chunk of the community, that time and investment just isnt worth giving up for CS2 yet. That seems to me the most urgent problem for this game.
I fully understand and respect this and it's not urgent. It took 10 years to get CS1 to the point it is today. We'll be happy to welcome you to Cities: Skylines II in the years to come, when you feel the game (or the modding) is ready.
 
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Every week I hope they will come forward with some action plan, that they will adress the youtubers that spoke out, give us a roadmap or a genuine sincere apology, just... something.

Every week I am dissapointed.

I don't even care to read the 'question answers'. What's the point? The game won't get fixed anyway, they don't care.
 
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"For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big."

Easy fix: Stop enrolling babies at the moment they are born and just enroll kids from 7 to 12 years old to elementary schools.
 
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I've been (somewhat) confidently predicting these past couple of weeks that the WotWs were finally going to address the patch cadence, and that the phone would ring with another call from Sweden telling @co_martsu how much everyone loved the current cadence but how much MORE everyone would love an increased one.

I now realise I was mistaken and I apologise for that, wholeheartedly and sincerely. It was not my intention to make such poor predictions, far from it, my underlying predictions are good, but I have been guilty of rushing these predictions out of the door without actually doing any of the work required to look into the future and make satisfying predictions that actually come true.

Barring a phone call from Sweden or anywhere else, I shall now step back and refrain from making any more predictions - actions speak louder than predictions, after all, and I'm sure you all trust me and think that's great.
 
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Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.
In a bug post it has been seen that it is the dogs that cause the problem. They should be removed until the problem is solved, it is frustrating to play like this.
 
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The design team is looking into this and we'll communicate about it when we have something concrete to share.


The release has been discussed on multiple occasions and we have expressed that we are sorry for not meeting the expectations. We are not sorry to have released the game and we are proud to have overcome multiple issues during development, that was the most challenging we've ever faced. With that said, there is still a mountain to climb and we're working on the game; bugfixes and improvements, modding support, the promised DLC for the Ultimate Edition and the missing platforms. We believe the best way forward is to keep working on the game and learn from the mistakes. There are people playing Cities: Skylines II and we're committed to them and to this game.


We have agreed not to release any information that is not concrete and could cause further disappointment. When it comes to the streamers (and community) we have received the feedback and it's taken into account. Before there are any concrete results we're not able to share it. Progress is being made and it will be communicated. We have not abandoned the game. Thanks for the feedback on the open positions, didn't think of that!


9 women can't make a baby in one month is probably a good way to describe the situation we've faced. Unfortunately throwing money at a problem doesn't always solve issues. With that said we are indeed looking to strengthen the team and we wish to find suitable people to work with us so we can speed up the development in the long run.

Consoles are something we've committed to at announcement, but as those are not available to purchase there's no revenue from them. All the optimizations required for it will benefit the PC. We believe we can find places to still optimize the game further without dumbing down the simulation. Though it also requires work for different reasons.


I fully understand and respect this and it's not urgent. It took 10 years to get CS1 to the point it is today. We'll be happy to welcome you to Cities: Skylines II in the years to come, when you feel the game (or the modding) is ready.
Thank you for this response, i'm happy to hear the design team is looking into 'nothing matters' and 'lacking challenge' as this is a big issue in the game. I am also glad to hear that feedback from content creators is being taken into account.

However, these things should have been properly mentioned in the word of the week. I reckon a lot of people have been waiting to hear something along these lines.

We all want this game to succeed, the reason people are frustrated is because we care about the game. I care about this game (a lot), I want it to live up to it's potential, so I feel it's important to hear reassuring things like this in the word of the week.

I think it's important to adress community concerns and to interact with the community. Things not being adressed/being silent just leads to more frustration and loss of hope of this game ever being what we all hoped it would be.
 
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I feel like the cims should continue to try to get to their destination if it’s work or school until a certain time of day instead of staying at home. I’d certainly get fired if I don’t show up to work
 
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I probably watched a handful of those videos and i am seriously wondering what else you are expecting them to adress here besides what they already did.

i just checked the WotW from this year and the first 4 were detailing the road map for 2024 how and when you can expect patches and bug fixes and improvements plus where they are at with modding support and in the last 3 blogs they adressed cargo flow, then the economy and land value, now cim choices, pathfinding, education.

While keeping in mind that the next patch is scheduled for end of march, i seriously wonder what, in your opinion, CO should have said or adressed here that would instantly impact the way you can enjoy the game until the next patch actually is deployed.

And whose or which issues specifically would you have them adressed here? Biffas or CPP´s? Dianas or Imperaturs?

A couple of weeks ago, Mariina asked to send questions to them for these words of the week to answer.

Did any of those content creators submit questions to them here that werent adressed?

Should they adress feedback at all given in a video here?

Well - the game has quite a lot of bugs (and quite game breaking) and it is quite unbalanced... and they decide to line up patches with modding support at the end of March and then with DLC releases (at least according to WotW where they were talking about patching process). That doesn't make any sense with broken and unfinished game like C:S2 - to have patches only every 3 months or so. And they never addressed any concerns about it risen from the community. They just decided to ignore them. They should explain why they decided like that - if it is really needed - and then inform about the progress and plans.

Same goes to issues mentioned in YT videos. In general, they are quite similar and also they just sum up all the issues which were mentioned in the community. It would be actually quite easy to group these questions and answer them - but that would need somebody from CO/Paradox who actually has some interest to really communicate with players. Seems, there is non.

So we are getting these WotW which are kind of pointless - this kind of info should be part of the game manual or so. WotW should be about updates how they are going to fix the game and what is the progress.
 
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The release has been discussed on multiple occasions and we have expressed that we are sorry for not meeting the expectations. We are not sorry to have released the game and we are proud to have overcome multiple issues during development, that was the most challenging we've ever faced. With that said, there is still a mountain to climb and we're working on the game; bugfixes and improvements, modding support, the promised DLC for the Ultimate Edition and the missing platforms. We believe the best way forward is to keep working on the game and learn from the mistakes. There are people playing Cities: Skylines II and we're committed to them and to this game.
You realize that the bolded part of this statement makes it much harder for a lot of us to ever buy a CO product in the future, right?

If you aren't sorry that you took our money and gave us a product that you misleadingly advertised (purposefully or not) then pulled the rug on us re: the schedule of things after the refund window was closed to virtually everyone that wanted to support you by buying the game, I don't think this is a company (or publisher) that I'm going to support in the future.

No refunds. No roadmap. No idea of what you're working on besides addressing bugs, still working on the modding support that was supposed to be finished months ago, and the console port that actively takes resources away from the game you decided to release in this state.

Also:
When it comes to the streamers (and community) we have received the feedback and it's taken into account. Before there are any concrete results we're not able to share it.
I sincerely wish that approach of not sharing anything before you had concrete results had applied around release...
 
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Therefore I asked for civility and we all saw how that went.

Respectfully, you asked for civility by telling us (and Engadget) that the community was toxic and that we were the problem, are you really shocked that made people more upset given the state of the game and the absence of refunds and lack of communication on substantive fixes to the game? This is the recipe for frustration and toxicity and the current approach isn't making things better, the community and the influencers are all upset and putting the game down, potentially for good.
 
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Nothing is faked, but the game is balanced to be easy enough to be played in a chill fashion for everyone. Still about half the people complained about not being able to make their city profitable. Traffic is actually only despawned when they are in an eternal waiting cycle. To my understanding, this is unlike in CS1 where they are despawned whenever traffic gets too heavy. It should be quite easy for people to make a hard mode for the game because now everything is actually simulated instead most of it being faked as in CS1 and most other similar games.

I think this game has the most actually simulated agents ever in a game, at least given how sophisticated they are. People are moving around somewhat less in a big city mostly not because of performance, but because the time scale means the city doesn't scale as in real life so a realistic number would just gridlock every city. But if you for example compare to CS1, it had a hard limit on how many agents can be on the move, while this game has none, and here everybody is actually simulated whatever the city size. If you have ideas on how to make a "realistic" city sim game with a time scale that is not boring but also doesn't have this problem, I'm all ears.

It is fake though. If everything can run on their so called "failsafes" so much so that you cannot fail - in any way shape or form (because people have tried their best), then interaction from you is unnecessary and the simulation may as well just be fake. There's no point even defending this, it's downright silly.
That was unlike CS1. There were very few failsafes, in fact, if something failed in your city you had a complete wave of failures which could in severe cases cause a loss.
Their failsafes in CS1 was: Traffic Despawn & Bank Loans.
In CS2 everything has a fail safe.. Literally everything and it makes it not fun. It's that simple.

No, traffic despawn the minute that too much traffic is detected and unlike CS1 it's ANY vehicle that can despawn which tends to end up being public transport that then deposits a ton of people on the road causing.. more traffic.

And come on, let's be honest here.. It wouldn't necessarily gridlock a city.. It's all about performance.. The game is barely functional as is, to even remotely think that Cims not being simulated isn't a matter of performance----
There's nothing realistic about this city sim. If there were, you could in fact, gridlock your city with Cims.

Fact is that this game has a hard limit of how many agents can be on the move, even though it was sold as having no limits.
 
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