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CO Word of the Week #13

Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
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The design team is looking into this and we'll communicate about it when we have something concrete to share.

That you are looking into improving the game design to be more challenging for the player is huge news and I am glad about it.

I think that should have the spotlight in some future update since it is something that a large part of the community requested and they would be very happy to hear more.
 
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Short answer is, yes. But how likely? Not much.

Someone tried these steps to see if residents buy a new car:

"I created a city with train connection only. I zoned only residential. All citizens moved in without cars. I re-rolled a commercial building until I got a car dealership.
Since it was the only commercial building, all residents visited it, but nobody bought cars.
Then I tried to re-roll another building until I got a gas station. I couldn’t.
Then I made cargo-rail-station, so that goods can be imported.
Then I was able to roll a gas station.
Also car dealership spawned a truck to get vehicles from the train cargo station.
Then I saw 3-4 cars running around in the city. I was expecting many cars to be bought, but it was extremely rare.
Then I zoned commercial, industrial & offices very far away from the city, so that cims have a reason to buy cars (no public transport).
I also set the taxes into -10% so money is not a big issue.
Still no luck. Nobody goes to work. They just work remotely I guess. They still walked all the way for the shops. At this point there were 10 cars max in the city.
So yeah, they buy cars. But simulation is so slow it is negligible. Only cars in your cities are from cims that moved in with them."
They said, "Feel free to send more questions", so just ask a question:

Please can you make car dealerships sell cars?
Please let people trade in older cars at the dealership.
Please add scrap yards.
Please allow cars to go to dealerships or other maintenance facilities.
 
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We will not subject our personnel to any form of abuse and in the current climate it's very difficult for us to have interaction that is not overwhelmingly stressful.

This is not even true though, as you subject your people each week to an official livestream! Speaking as a YouTuber, I know what abuse may be inflicted—but here you have angered your customer base with a game you officially admit wasn’t 100% up to your expectations in disastrous defensive PR—and yet you proceed to send your marketing people out to the crucible each week.

Constructive advice: do the livestream yourself because you’re the leader. Take the heat off of your team and put it solely on you. Or, just stop talking and marketing until you have something concrete to say (tell Sweden you’re doing it for their good too)—because you talking has so far just made us more angry and subjected your team to more anger when they deal with the public.

And for the record, I’m not seeing abuse directed at CO—it’s mostly righteous indignation over features promised and not delivered as anticipated by CO’s own pre-launch marketing and post-launch communications. You really ought to count your blessings that people are even bothering to stay engaged with you at this point, because if this anger turns into apathy, it will be much worse for your financial future.
 
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Geez, there must be something wrong with me because I have played CS 2 for slightly over 100 hours now and I find it a very useful tool to release my creativity and also to mellow out from stress while listening to Zen music while I play. I am still learning how to construct better major traffic interchanges, more interesting communities and neighborhoods--I just LOVE THIS GAME as it is and I know it will get even better over time!
nothing wrong with you, there are a few types of players here, those who came from CS1 on PC and spent alot of money on DLC and time with it, those who played it with lots of mods and some with not many. Those on Xbox with a mostly vanilla experience, and those who haven't played this title of city builder at all and CS2 is their first cities skylines game. All types of players have valid view points. one persons view doesn't mean you're wrong, but that a persons experience with this game is mostly dependent on their expectations that come from that previous experience, or lack thereof, with the CS1.

I came from PC CS1 from launch day, kept up to date with all the DLC, all the best mods, thousands of them over the years. 1,800 hours into the game and counting, so I did kind of expect a bigger draw from CS2 to pull me away from CS1 with all that content and creativity, on launch day. I didn't expect them to include much honestly, Just a few more variations of buildings and some QOL mods from CS1, knowing i'd be able to get loads of asset mods in the future. I was prepared for that.
But the base game is so lacking in basic things. only mods have brought me back to CS2 after the launch week and its greatly improved things for me, especially decorating wise. I won't play an unmodded version of this game again as i know these features are not coming from paradox. making thier game for me, and others like me completely dependant on unpaid modders. to which i'm extemely grateful.

I was upset with this game months back, but apart from the slow updates, and lack of talent in the communication department, im enjoying, for now, making a city in CS2. im not enjoying managing the city, but more so planning the road network and decorating. information about the way the simulation works seems to be being dragged out over a weekly basis in these posts. where as it would have been useful to have this information before i started building a city, instead of having to depend on the community and my own testing to work it out for myself.

For those who didnt play CS1 with mods or DLC and enjoyed it or didnt play CS1 at all, then you're much more likely to like CS2. thats absoletly valid too. I'd imagine the majority of people come from PC CS1 with atleast 1 mod, as if this was fully filled with new players with no expectations, the reviews would be better and the community less angry. but throw CS1 out and imagine it didn't exist, i'd imagine alot better reception.
 
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Didn't they already do that? I saw a headline on a website in passing, that they admitted the game wasn't up to standard.
The only apology I remember seeing was a 'sorry if you're upset' non apology. Multiple times. They keep doing it...
we are sorry for not meeting the expectations. We are not sorry to have released the game and we are proud

Non-apology apologizers may be trying to avoid litigation that might result from an admission of guilt or responsibility.

We will NEVER get a real apology from them because it would implicate them and open the door for litigation on their false advertising of the game up to release.
 
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Have you guys thought about getting a public relations rep? I'm sure it would be easy to find someone who cares and would gives actual insight in these WotWs. Seems like you're just posting stuff no one asked for because Paradox said you have to keep making them.
 
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@LeeMeister
I saw one ridiculous statement that also maybe crossed the line ("I hate you"). But mostly it's rightful indignation.
It’s important to remove hostility and ad hominem attacks from an online community…it is toxic, and there’s no reason to tolerate it. I completely support removing these types of comments and banning those who insist on making them.

What I do not understand is why the entire community gets chastised for the inappropriate behavior of a few individuals. It’s import too to remember that a lot of teens play this game, and they may not understand yet how to appropriately express themselves. Speaking again as a YouTuber, I will address criticism if I feel like it’s necessary…but I will ignore and ban trolls. I will not treat critics the same as I will treat trolls. Criticism, whether I agree or not, is valid to express. Lashing out against the negatively publicly like CO has looks bad, and feels unprofessional to me.
 
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I hope future developers of city sims learn from the mistakes of Simcity 2013 and CS2 (and CS1 somewhat) and ditch the agent-based simulation system.
The downsides out-weigh the benefits massively in my opinion.
 
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I hope future developers of city sims learn from the mistakes of Simcity 2013 and CS2 (and CS1 somewhat) and ditch the agent-based simulation system.
The downsides out-weigh the benefits massively in my opinion.
I guess you can do that, but will feel we're going back in the game evolution. I agree that full agent simulation apparently is not yet achievable without any sort of fail-safe mechanics or to artificially reduce the amount of agents spawning around for the current technology or maybe multicore engine limitations (as the LTT video shows). Maybe one solution I just came up by reading your message is like just spawn a fixed number of cars/pedestrians by building type (like 1 car or 2 pedestrians every X game days for single house, or 10/20 for small office and so on) and give a random A to B path. This will somehow create a "live" city with traffic challenges.
However you ditch away all the logistic simulation and general meaning in arranging the buildings whatsoever.
It all stands on what is the vision you have for the game, what is the hardware capabilities in the next 5 years of development (considering from the beginning the consoles) and what you can actually do with the resources/knowledge/game engine.
I understand that now everyone's trust and good intentions have been hit hard by the actual product. I am also only playing with CS1 as the current status doesn't make me want to play it, but they're working on it to try to solve the flaws arisen from a wrongly defined scope of the game. The above 3 points got them in this "gridlock" where anything cannot move in the right direction. I really hope good for them and the game, but I see here a big opportunity for other companies (say EA?) to put up some good competition by the time this game could be up to their vision. I would suggest to see if EA is hiring people for simulation related positions lol!
 
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I hope future developers of city sims learn from the mistakes of Simcity 2013 and CS2 (and CS1 somewhat) and ditch the agent-based simulation system.
The downsides out-weigh the benefits massively in my opinion.
Hard disagree. Agent-based simulation is not the problem. There are numerous city building games with agent-based simulation that both perform well and are fun to play. The issues for both SC2013 and CS2 are the same—they were released for the cash and had numerous poor design decisions that lost the entire purpose of why people play city builder games. I would say that the big difference between the two was that EA chose to dumb the simulation down too much for cost savings, while CO bit off way more than they could chew and didn’t have the technical talent or resources to support their goals—which again was possibly motivated by cost-savings, but could also be simply leadership not recognizing a lack of technical expertise—software architecture is really hard when it’s multithreaded—but it’s also hard when your game engine has huge gaps that features of your game require.

EA is a terrible company who does everything for the cash. I don’t know what history will say about Paradox and CO, but I think their biggest problem was poor choices technically, and painting themselves into a corner on the business side. I don’t think it will ever be remotely satisfying for a city builder today that doesn’t employ agent-based simulation. The technical problems they encountered in the game engine they chose and not limiting the scope of other changes from CS1 were what really messed things up IMO.
 
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We are not sorry to have released the game and we are proud to have overcome multiple issues during development, that was the most challenging we've ever faced.
People are trying to tell you that they feel lied to, cheated, and taken advantage of. The fact that you still explicitly express your lack of remorse over the release shows that you either don't get it or don't care that you disrespected your fans by lying to them.

This reads exactly the same to me as "We are not sorry we took advantage of our enthusiastic fans by using a dishonest marketing campaign to sell them a broken, unfinished game at full price."
 
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**This is meant to be as constructive as possible given where the game and community are as of mid-February**

I've got mixed feelings about where WOTW has gone since its inception. It was great to hear the CEO talk about the future of the game and have other members of the team provide additional context or information regarding bugs/improvements, albeit with lots of "less than stellar" updates on critical features still missing or broken in the game; it at least gave us some form of hope that things are being seen, acknowledged, and worked on. Now, it's just an FAQ with nothing very relevant to what players are wanting/needing to hear. Maybe it's true that there is nothing new to update the community on (nothing regarding mods, performance, bug fixes, CTD's, etc), leading the team to have to talk about SOMETHING regarding the game for these WOTW posts. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it's been productive for anyone's sake (neither for the team nor the community); arguments end up being anything but constructive or helpful for anyone to respond to and address, and communication continues being vague/deflective of justified concerns about where priorities are as a whole. Maybe these announcements should become bi-weekly (every two weeks) instead of weekly, allowing for (potentially) more substantial announcement posts, rather than these weekly FAQs on "deep-dives of the game's systems" that (appear to) have been "less than well-received" given how players don't feel like the systems are working as designed (nor explained in the FAQs that are supposed to help players understand the nuances between C:S1 and C:S2).

I want to continue playing this game and enjoying it (already having over 240 hours), but given how much progress is left to even get the game in a more justifiable position for the majority of the community to enjoy, I'm not sure how much energy I have left to do so. I'm tired of relying on unofficial stuff to fix things that should've already been addressed and fixed (or at least show significant improvements in). The lack of anything significant going from C:S1 to C:S2 (besides road tools and "enhanced traffic AI", at least for now) is pushing me towards leaving this game on the figurative shelf for a month or so (maybe longer), keeping up-to-date on WOTW (when it's got relevant information regarding the future of the game and not about systems that players don't understand because of how poorly it's communicated in-game [seriously: WE WANT INFO IN THE GAME; TELL US MORE, NOT LESS, IN-GAME]), and HOPING that the team doesn't give up on the game. The potential is there; we're just desperate for things to be in a better position sooner given how things have changed since January's first WOTW.
 
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The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.
I'm confused by what this is implying. 1000 students would be a HUGE elementary school where I live (a city of ~100k, which is the size of city CS2 seems to want to simulate). My kid goes to one with a capacity of ~400, and that's pretty normal. 1000 students for an elementary school isn't "unrealistically small", it would be the biggest one in this city capacity wise (the only schools that break 1k are high schools here).

Or do you just mean it'd be physically small when placed in the game? I'd be okay with that with how big the ones in there now feel vs how many of them you need. It feels like there's too many elementary students in general vs a real city, and that doesn't seem to be addressed here.
 
I'm going to get so many negative reactions to this post, but thank you CO, CO CEO, and devs. Y'all rock.

To the CEO - Mariina, lead through this storm with conviction in your product This is a good, albeit buggy, simulation. Forget the haters.

To the Devs - just keep chugging through the bugs. There is a light at the end of this tunnel. Don't stop believin'.
 
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Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina


The problem with elementary schools is that there is only one asset. The more buildings of the same type are required the more different assets there should be. For example 3 assets of elementary school, 2 assets of colleges. More assets of police, firestation etc. Assets aren't hard to make.
 
I fear we've been a situation where we are damned if we do and damned if we don't when it comes to the communication with the community. We will not subject our personnel to any form of abuse and in the current climate it's very difficult for us to have interaction that is not overwhelmingly stressful. Therefore I asked for civility and we all saw how that went. We are doing our best and we'll just have to wait and get the results in the game to get passed this.
I'm a (very) long time Paradox customer but nowadays hardly ever post anymore. I do regularly lurk on these forums though, and these responses genuinely confuse me. I have followed this forum and reddit since the game's release. There is an important difference between "abuse" or "toxicity" on the one hand, and "stress" or anger on the other.

I completely understand that communication is stressful and unpleasant at the moment, but "toxicity" is not the same as angry customers or bad vibes. Toxicity is actual abuse, bullying, foul language, racism, sexism, etc. There's been a lot of anger and frustration by paying customers, but I have seen very little "toxicity". Of course the internet always has some trolls but, generally, I see a community that deeply cares and feels increasingly abandoned by the developers of a game they are passionate about. People on here are overwhelmingly respectful, just disappointed and frustrated, and criticise the many things that obviously have gone awry.

Stressful situations and difficult communication streams occur all the time in any profession, especially if things don't go as planned/hoped for. If a project I'm working on goes wrong, clients will get upset. This creates a negative atmosphere. That, however, is not toxicity or abuse. It's unhappy customers expressing their frustration, sometimes aggressively so. In such situations, I need to increase communication, not avoid it, even if I feel that some of their criticism might be unfair. It's not fun, it's stressful, but it's my obligation towards paying clients and in the long-run will help all of us to get things back on track again.

It's therefore a mistake to use terms as "toxicity" or "abuse" in this context; they come across as an excuse to avoid dealing with the frustration by mostly respectful customers, thereby only increasing the breakdown of trust between developers and players. By all means, delete posts that are actually toxic, and ban those who engage in abusive behaviour, but please don't use such terms in generalised, blanket, non-specific statements. Doing so only creates a further wall between you and your customer base.
 
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