• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CO Word of the Week #13

Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
  • 67
  • 63Like
  • 6Haha
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
Hello, any word about the perceived "lacking challenge" or "nothing matters" from a big part of the community and content creators?


Are there any plans to make a more challenging mode with impactful consequences in the future?
I really hope they make the game more challenging. Because of the subsidies, it feels that money isn’t an issue, and I am able to spend as much as I want without getting near debt.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Attachments

  • IMG_20240219_174904.jpg
    IMG_20240219_174904.jpg
    232,9 KB · Views: 0
  • 4Like
  • 3
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
I am wondering if I am the only one having issues with the cargo trains and sending merch outside of the city? It never worked for me. Trucks only used my station as a depot, then picked it up to deliver it outside themselves. The line worked — to bring things from outside. But nothing ever went out. I ended up turning the cargo station and train yards off as they were draining all my money. And trucks are still using it as a depot even if it’s turned off…
 
  • 1
Reactions:
The big company
They have... they have only 30 people?? What kind of a business management is this?? You would expect a company that has made a name for itself to have some proper numbers... where did all the revenue from CS1 go..?

Well I guess they doubled their numbers since CS1 launch :D (insert kek_laugh meme). But they are big financially at least. Being big doesn't only happen with number of people
 
  • 3
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Certainly, it seems Cities Skylines 2 aspired to set a new industry standard not just with its unparalleled graphics and complexity, but also with the revolutionary idea that players don't actually need optimization, functioning simulations, or the ability to install mods. Apparently, true mastery is to test the players' patience to the limit, offering them to explore not the cities of their dreams, but the boundless expanses of errors and lags. Who knew the most thrilling challenge in the game would be trying to make it run ?
 
  • 14Haha
  • 4Like
  • 1Love
Reactions:
The release has been discussed on multiple occasions and we have expressed that we are sorry for not meeting the expectations. We are not sorry to have released the game and we are proud to have overcome multiple issues during development, that was the most challenging we've ever faced. With that said, there is still a mountain to climb and we're working on the game; bugfixes and improvements, modding support, the promised DLC for the Ultimate Edition and the missing platforms. We believe the best way forward is to keep working on the game and learn from the mistakes. There are people playing Cities: Skylines II and we're committed to them and to this game.
The release of this game in a such a state borders on fraud, after all you SOLD this obviously broken product at full price; therefore, I cannot wrap my head around how you still defend that decision. You even put the word "pride" somewhere in your answer. The only reason you got away with this without legal consequences is because there is virtually no regulation in the software industry. Not recognizing the game's release as morally unacceptable is worrying to say the least.

Also, you cannot just be commited to the players who are still playing the game; your responsibility is to EVERYONE who purchased the game. Alternatively, refund everyone who gave up on this product that does not work as intended or advertised. Until you do that refund, you owe us ALL an apology and a working product.
 
  • 18Like
  • 4
  • 2
Reactions:
I really do appreciate you guys keeping up this weekly thing, but this doesn't really say anything. Same with last week. When are you going to address the issues most of the people, and especially content creators, are asking for? This feels a bit tone deaf if you ask me.

The video Diana made was exactly right, fun and all that you address the mechanics, but I don't really care about how they work. I care about that it just works, same goes for water physics, sim behaviour and land value. It just needs to work, cuz I don't want to know how it works. I'm a gamer, not a programmer lol
 
  • 10Like
Reactions:
How many more code and gameplay proofs would you like to see the "base" of this claim? Or do you still want to play 3 monkeys? If you ever want to learn, go google some.
I would like to see just one proof. Please send it to me and I'll do my best to analyze it. I am no longer working for CO so I can't be sure what's really happening and can't seriously debug a save, but I'd like to understand what you're claiming is happening instead of listening to things you just imagine, compared to how I know the game works.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:
The release has been discussed on multiple occasions and we have expressed that we are sorry for not meeting the expectations. We are not sorry to have released the game and we are proud to have overcome multiple issues during development, that was the most challenging we've ever faced. With that said, there is still a mountain to climb and we're working on the game; bugfixes and improvements, modding support, the promised DLC for the Ultimate Edition and the missing platforms. We believe the best way forward is to keep working on the game and learn from the mistakes. There are people playing Cities: Skylines II and we're committed to them and to this game.
You realize that the bolded part of this statement makes it much harder for a lot of us to ever buy a CO product in the future, right?

If you aren't sorry that you took our money and gave us a product that you misleadingly advertised (purposefully or not) then pulled the rug on us re: the schedule of things after the refund window was closed to virtually everyone that wanted to support you by buying the game, I don't think this is a company (or publisher) that I'm going to support in the future.

No refunds. No roadmap. No idea of what you're working on besides addressing bugs, still working on the modding support that was supposed to be finished months ago, and the console port that actively takes resources away from the game you decided to release in this state.

Also:
When it comes to the streamers (and community) we have received the feedback and it's taken into account. Before there are any concrete results we're not able to share it.
I sincerely wish that approach of not sharing anything before you had concrete results had applied around release...
 
  • 20Like
  • 5
  • 3
Reactions:
They have... they have only 30 people?? What kind of a business management is this?? You would expect a company that has made a name for itself to have some proper numbers... where did all the revenue from CS1 go..?

Well I guess they doubled their numbers since CS1 launch :D (insert kek_laugh meme). But they are big financially at least. Being big doesn't only happen with number of people
Search CO in linkedin. They have more like 20 people rather than 30. Yes, this is still more than the ~10 for CS1 launch, but the games are also not being evaluated on the same expectancy level.
 
Dear Colossal Order Dev Team, I've never had any reason to comment until now, but this word of the week is pretty much useless. You could've just created a FAQ page and answered the questions there.

Anyway, I will try my best to be a bit more constructive.

First of all it would be nice to receive bi-weekly (or even weekly) patches for the game, because the game is just not fun. It get's boring really fast and the lack of assets or variations of the existing assets limits replayibility massively. For example the train station is either too big or too small for most use cases. We should at least get a suburban smaller station or a bigger version of the existing one.

The base game needs to be fixed, before you release any dlc's. We all have noticed that you already integrated a ton of feautures from the CS1 dlc's into the base CS2 game, but it all feels sometimes useless due to them only being partially implemented.

I know that you are all under a lot of stress, but please just listen to the community before you run your reputation into the ground. It would be nice if you would pull a "No man's sky" or a "Linus Tech Tips" moment off, because the base game really has a lot of potential.

Nevertheless thank you for all your work until now.
Geez, there must be something wrong with me because I have played CS 2 for slightly over 100 hours now and I find it a very useful tool to release my creativity and also to mellow out from stress while listening to Zen music while I play. I am still learning how to construct better major traffic interchanges, more interesting communities and neighborhoods--I just LOVE THIS GAME as it is and I know it will get even better over time!
 
  • 7Like
  • 7
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Geez, there must be something wrong with me because I have played CS 2 for slightly over 100 hours now and I find it a very useful tool to release my creativity and also to mellow out from stress while listening to Zen music while I play. I am still learning how to construct better major traffic interchanges, more interesting communities and neighborhoods--I just LOVE THIS GAME as it is and I know it will get even better over time!
It's already great in a lot of ways, and yes, both CS1 and 2 can be good stress relief. And yes, laying down roads and seeing your city grow can be a really good experience. Especially when the music is nice and the game is beautiful.
However, it was advertised as a deep and complex simulation, and it just isn't there yet. Everything balances itself out because nothing works as it should, so they have to put in all kinds of fail-safes which basically makes the game play itself.

Stellaris had (has?) the same issues --the initial exploring and colonizing was fun, but then the game just... stopped being interesting. Not much of anything happened unless you started a war, and the experience just devolved into managing colonies. The events and "side-quests" thrown at you were scripted and grew stale fast, there was little systemic gameplay like in the Crusader Kings games, where things evolved organically around you and you felt like you were telling a story while playing.

CS2 is beautiful, and ultimately promising. It can be a great classic. Right now, though, all you really do is lay down roads, plop down some buildings, and watch the game play itself. Which, yes, can be awesome stress relief, but isn't exactly engaging gameplay.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Busses are getting bunched up at the bus station because they have to wait for a gap in the steady stream of pedestrians walking to the bus station and crossing over the bus entrance. Since both the busses and pedestrians enter the station from the front, there is no way to design around this at all, resulting in a bus line grinding to a halt if I use a bus station. The workaround is to use bus stops and no stations whatsoever, making the station a fairly useless asset.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
The design team is looking into this and we'll communicate about it when we have something concrete to share.


The release has been discussed on multiple occasions and we have expressed that we are sorry for not meeting the expectations. We are not sorry to have released the game and we are proud to have overcome multiple issues during development, that was the most challenging we've ever faced. With that said, there is still a mountain to climb and we're working on the game; bugfixes and improvements, modding support, the promised DLC for the Ultimate Edition and the missing platforms. We believe the best way forward is to keep working on the game and learn from the mistakes. There are people playing Cities: Skylines II and we're committed to them and to this game.


We have agreed not to release any information that is not concrete and could cause further disappointment. When it comes to the streamers (and community) we have received the feedback and it's taken into account. Before there are any concrete results we're not able to share it. Progress is being made and it will be communicated. We have not abandoned the game. Thanks for the feedback on the open positions, didn't think of that!


9 women can't make a baby in one month is probably a good way to describe the situation we've faced. Unfortunately throwing money at a problem doesn't always solve issues. With that said we are indeed looking to strengthen the team and we wish to find suitable people to work with us so we can speed up the development in the long run.

Consoles are something we've committed to at announcement, but as those are not available to purchase there's no revenue from them. All the optimizations required for it will benefit the PC. We believe we can find places to still optimize the game further without dumbing down the simulation. Though it also requires work for different reasons.


I fully understand and respect this and it's not urgent. It took 10 years to get CS1 to the point it is today. We'll be happy to welcome you to Cities: Skylines II in the years to come, when you feel the game (or the modding) is ready.

Hi
THIS! This is what the community is looking for. I think this is/was the very first interaction between Colossal Order and some not so simple questions/concerns. I appreciate and I think I can say this in the name of many: Please do this in the word of the week. In general, there are so many questions unanswered but popping up every time which could be answered with a simple FAQ. Even if it means "we don't know yet". But at least, it shows the community that you're reading, listing, watching.

However, at least me, I'm disappointed to read that you won't apologize for the launch of the game. It shows that you won't take responsibility. Yes, you have not met our expectations. But this expectation was created and established by you through the year of 2023, with all your little sneak-peak videos. It just surprises me, after all you can still do a No man sky U-turn. You know yourself the game in its current state should have never been launched. There are only two options, either you really weren't aware of the following three points or you decided to publish anyway knowing that the game is not ready:
  • Performance issues (which you mentioned right before launch date)
  • Severe game-breaking bugs
  • Lack of mod support (as promised)
Someone in the community made the comparison last time that if you buy a blender you'd expect one that works. If you come home and realize that the most important part doesn't work, you'd naturally go back to the seller and either ask for a refund or an explanation. The first one is no longer possible because it was not obvious right away that the game has so many severe issues that it took some time to see what state the game is truly in but because of that we can't refund it anymore (plus the lack of content which was promised etc.). The second one we're trying to do but are not getting anything back. Now we're sitting here, with a half-working blender and the manufacture tells us "Don't worry I'll send you in about 6 months maybe the working parts". And "sorry we didn't meet your expectation". In all honesty, does this behavior make any sense to you? It doesn't to me, and to the whole City Skyline Community (and hey, don't worry, you're not the first publisher / dev studio going through this process, I don't need to mention names but it should be obvious by now that this game launching strategy (and especially how you're cleaning up the mess currently) does nothing but hurt the brand).

The game has some cool new mechanics and over all, yes one can play it. But it feels unfinished. You could have prevented a lot of discussions with pushing the release for another half of a year. Cities Skyline I was doing so well anyway, with its peaking amount of players at the same time. But ever since your launch you lost almost all players for Citites Skyline II and reduced the amount of player for CS I. It was just a bad move, shooting the stocks down from paradox interactive. So No, I can ensure you, if Colossal Order won't take full responsibility and apologize for this mess, there will be a scar left. And obviously new players in 5 years won't know anything about this, but your core community will remember.

That being said, I wish you a lot of strength and wisdom for the next few months. Thanks for your work and that you try to communicate to the community even if it doesn't always meet their "language".

Best,
A player from your community
 
  • 14
  • 6Like
  • 1
Reactions: