So about the Papacy...

[Emp. Theodosius]

I was wondering, does anyone else feel like the Papacy in CKII is just a bit underwhelming? It's so easy to conquer the Pope, excommunications are hardly ever used and it's just in general is more useful if the pope is conquered rather then independent?! Anyone else agree here that this should be fixed with some minor overhauls just to make the Pope feel like a massive presence for any Christian based ruler? Outside of calling crusades, he really doesn't do very much while historically the Pope was definitely something to be reckoned with.

And would anyone agree that some of these fixes might be useful and wouldn't throw off the balance too much?

Excommunication is used a LOT more frequently and has more negative maluses!
Papal States is moved up to an Empire-Tier title to make it more powerful and harder to conquer.
The Pope can call wars to depose excommunicated rulers.
The Pope can request/ask a ruler to eliminate an excommunicated duke/count/bishop in his realm.
The Pope can take 'direct intervention' against an excommunicated ruler by attacking for a duchy title within the realm.
Manpower bonuses for the Pope in addition to the Empire-Level boosts.
Request excommunication is taken away; new button 'Present evidence for heresy' comes up. You get several options which include bribery, or other ways of persuading the Pope to excommunicate a ruler. Also this can be used by the A.I.
Minor Crusades for Duchy Titles can be called once every 3 years. Exclusive to Catholics. Represents the more minor Crusades that happened. Less A.I. rulers will join it though if preoccupied.

 

[moscal]

Papal States is moved up to an Empire-Tier title to make it more powerful and harder to conquer.

IMO not. Holy Roman Emperor was advocate that HRE stands above the Pope; also in practice - in time "Avignon Papacy" Pope was vassal of French King (in CK2 mechanism - French Emperor).

 

[classicist]

Request excommunication is taken away; new button 'Present evidence for heresy' comes up.

That is not really very historical as a rework. Rulers would not have been the ones to present anything about other Christian characters' doctrinal position. Moreover, while excommunication would have been part of the range of actions against heretics, accusations of heresy were by no means a typical reason for a ruler's excommunication.

 

[Emp. Theodosius]

IMO not. Holy Roman Emperor was advocate that HRE stands above the Pope; also in practice - in time "Avignon Papacy" Pope was vassal of French King (in CK2 mechanism - French Emperor).

Well, obviously one ruler would claim that his title stands above another one that even remotely compares to his. As can be seen from many of the conflicts between the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope, namely the Investiture Controversy (which is an important controversy that happened around the time of the 'main' starting date of CKII) it is pretty clear that there were power struggles going on. Henry IV was excommunicated FIVE TIMES! I'm not saying that the Pope cannot be subdued; I'm saying that he should be given an Empire tier title (And maybe add a couple of provinces) so he can actually fight back and not get 'vassalized' any time a player sets up an Anti-Pope. Another way to possibly fix this is to make it much harder to set up an Anti-Pope. I agree with the French Emperor part, but all of those Popes had been French and were loyal to the French crown. Later anti-popes that branched from Avignon had no real power as well to challenge anyone, whereas in CKII in this case a French ruler would simply use it to subdue the entire papacy because he simply has a larger army.

That is not really very historical as a rework. Rulers would not have been the ones to present anything about other Christian characters' doctrinal position. Moreover, while excommunication would have been part of the range of actions against heretics, accusations of heresy were by no means a typical reason for a ruler's excommunication.

Alright, point taken. Maybe 'Accuse Sinner' or something then, perhaps relating to the traits of the targeted character? There's multiple things that could fit in to this. Point is, I just don't like how it is now: a simple yes/no decision. I think it would be better for it to be more of a variable decision, especially if it is buffed like I've suggested above.

 

[Garranger]

I think it should be easier to join the Pope's wars, either with an automatical call to arms or with a new button on the interface. Right now I hardly notice if Rome is in trouble, even when playing in Italia. I'll idly pan my camera over Italy and go 'huh, Pope got conquered.'

 

[classicist]

Point is, I just don't like how it is now: a simple yes/no decision. I think it would be better for it to be more of a variable decision, especially if it is buffed like I've suggested above.

Certainly. It needs to be made more dynamic. For one thing, the Pope could perhaps be made to be very likely to excommunicate whomever he considers a rival - and ideally, events about free investiture would be re-tailored to have a high chance of antagonizing the pope into a rivalry.

 

[Yeekim]

I agree that the Pope should be quite lot more "visible" than he is.

 

[Thure]

The pope as empire makes no sense. There were perioids were the Pope was no more than a vassal which would be impossible in this way.

 

[Andrzej2]

The Pope can call wars to depose excommunicated rulers.
The Pope can request/ask a ruler to eliminate an excommunicated duke/count/bishop in his realm.

I agree to those points.

Also every catholic ruler should be able to offer to join war on Pope in any circumstances. I have seen plenty of situations when Pope is about to lose Rome ( to Byzantines for example) but you can't help him in any way.

Another issue with papacy - spending gold for cardinals is a waste of money. I never do that, nor any other player I know. We should spend piety or some kind of papal influence points to be able to have fun in curia.

When antipope exist all rulers should be able to choose sides. For example as a king of Poland I could support French antipope in Avignion or side with Rome. It was a real thing. Also antipopes should have their own curia. If war is declared to depose antipope he or his suzerain should be able to call rulers who sided with him.

That would make things interesting.

 

[SaveScumPuppy]

The first several months I played CK2, I never had the slightest inkling that the Pope could actually be vassalized. In fact, I assumed that acting aggressively against the Papacy would essentially be suicide since he'd just be able to call all Catholic rulers to his aid. This seemed so self-evident to me that I never even considered it until I came across something about papal vassalization in the forums. Suffice it to say I was pretty disappointed when I learned about this.

I wholeheartedly agree the Papacy should be Emperor tier and that he should have an automatic call to arms for all loyal Catholic rulers when being attacked.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Oh! Better Catholicism! Yes Thanks!!
- Curia for Antipopes
- Higher tier bishoperics inherited by lower tier bishops
- You should never pay for naming a good bishop(Actually the opposite! Pope should like a pius virtuous littlebroter/son from a grand dynasty).
- Having a Cardinal as vassal should matter.

 

[Tryvenyal]

I wholeheartedly agree the Papacy should be Emperor tier and that he should have an automatic call to arms for all loyal Catholic rulers when being attacked.

All religious heads are lower than Empire. Why the pope? Why not the Caliph or Orthodox religious head? All we need is to change the antipope-claim war CB to not vassalize.... Kingtier is already higher than most and is diplomatically unvassalizeable.

Edit: And fully agree, all Catholic characters should be called to arms when pope is attacked. At least to 100% when attacker is not Catholic.

Also, it should be possible to surrender b_roma(the church) only to pope and hold county yourself.

 

[Thrake]

The Pope should not just give candies to good christians but also resort to the beat stick whenever necessary. Especially with traits, a zealous Pope should be eager to press the excommunication button at every unpious acts while a sinful one should try to be more aggressive diplomatically (let the Pope actually go to war as he realize that he can hire half of the mercenaries in the known world) or more lenient with the right bribe. That would spice things up.

 

[Kapitalisti]

I agree that the Pope should be a lot stronger and a lot more visible when playing as a Catholic but I also think that the whole "empire tier Papacy" is monumentally stupid.

 

[Caeserion]

The Pope should not just give candies to good christians but also resort to the beat stick whenever necessary. Especially with traits, a zealous Pope should be eager to press the excommunication button at every unpious acts while a sinful one should try to be more aggressive diplomatically (let the Pope actually go to war as he realize that he can hire half of the mercenaries in the known world) or more lenient with the right bribe. That would spice things up.

Christianity places a lot more worth on forgiveness and stuff - Henry II of "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest" fame wasn't excommunicated, he was just made to repent (I don't remember any ruler being forced to do anything comparable in order to show repentance however). Rather than excommunication, messages first that say 'stop doing this sin and do this shameful thing to repent' should be sent out, each with increasing piety and prestige losses for whatever option you take. After 2-3 messages, excommunication. Once given out however, excommunication places far more penalties on the character - claimant factions are more likely to form, excommunication CB now results in deposition to nearest adult heir (if your dynasty is all kids, too bad), vassals may choose to withhold troops entirely, etc.

All catholic rulers should be able to intervene on the pope's side on any defensive wars, even if you are a vassal of the guy waging war against the pope (not sure if no vassal liege wars is hardcoded though).

Popes should remain king tier, since the popes were under the Roman Emperors for a long time (and the Byzantine Emperors as well). Pope should have a much higher chance of joining independence factions however, to better simulate the supremacy conflict.

The Minor Crusades for Duchy Titles should only be allowed if: The top liege is catholic, the duchy is either fully catholic with the duke being heretic or the duchy has heretical lands and duke is catholic (independent dukes with heresy in their lands should be allowed to request an 'inquisition' which basically forces a battle between the ducal+papal troops and heretical fanatics)