Plots : Too cheap and easy?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Thing is - I dont think it IS a bug .. I think it's more an inherint flaw in the plot system as a whole. No matter the game (and I've played loads the last 6 weeks) - Plots are just way way way way too easy (in my experience) to achieve things with. I've not had a single one fail out of the 100s I've instigated once I've had a backer - and I've only ever waited a short amount of time to get a backer.

The way you describe it, it surely doesn't seem likely that the intended behaviour is that it should be so easy to accomplish, so report it in the bug forum, preferably with a link to a game save that'll allow reconstruction of the situation. E.g. "I've started plotting and invited duke X, then saved, when you reload the attached save, note that I've got 102% chance of success, so I press OK and become king; This is wrong since a) I am weak, b) he just fought to become king, c) there's no reason to give in to me, d) it sucks that it is so easy".

So please do report it; It really does help when such aberrant behaviour is reported in the proper subforum (and preferably with steps to reproduce given, if possible). Now, it'll also get noticed here due to the number of betas and moderators present, but it is so much simpler when people report buggy behaviour or behaviour that seems so out of whack with the expected in the bug forum.

 

[riknap]

The way you describe it, it surely doesn't seem likely that the intended behaviour is that it should be so easy to accomplish, so report it in the bug forum, preferably with a link to a game save that'll allow reconstruction of the situation. E.g. "I've started plotting and invited duke X, then saved, when you reload the attached save, note that I've got 102% chance of success, so I press OK and become king; This is wrong since a) I am weak, b) he just fought to become king, c) there's no reason to give in to me, d) it sucks that it is so easy".

So please do report it; It really does help when such aberrant behaviour is reported in the proper subforum (and preferably with steps to reproduce given, if possible). Now, it'll also get noticed here due to the number of betas and moderators present, but it is so much simpler when people report buggy behaviour or behaviour that seems so out of whack with the expected in the bug forum.

to be fair, based on the discussion so far, I'm reluctant to consider it a bug as well, and more of a not-so-well-designed-plot.
That said, it's still better to report it in the bug forum anyway, as it's more likely to get appropriate attention that way.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

to be fair, based on the discussion so far, I'm reluctant to consider it a bug as well, and more of a not-so-well-designed-plot.
That said, it's still better to report it in the bug forum anyway, as it's more likely to get appropriate attention that way.

Well, whether you consider it a bug or balance issue, if it is something that seems so utterly out of whack with the intention of the game, it needs to be reported in the bug forum.

 

[Arizal]

Contrary to what was said earlier in this thread, I consider plots really interesting as a mechanic. Sure, it should be less powerful in some cases, but I don't want a limitiations of the number of plots. I would even like multiple plots at the same time, if this wouldn't be too CPU consuming. That way, you could make a web of plots and risking the support of another backer if you begin a plot which is against his interest. It isn't realistic to say : you can have only one plot by 5 years.

 

[Sotof]

Honestly I think plots lack... Plotting. It's basically a plan of:

1. Gather loads of people with power
2. ??????
3. Send letter and hope things go well

Should it not be more like...

1. Gather people with power
2. Start the plot
3. Given your choices and the people you brought in you may fail/succeed on different levels.
3a. Failure could range from civil war to a loss of prestige, while success could range from increased plot spoils to just barely getting what you wanted at a loss of prestige and relations.

But hey, it works as a feature right now. Just throwing the idea out there.

 

[Arizal]

I completely agree with you, Wallain, even when you say that plots right now work fair enough but could be enhanced. I would like more interactions with the plotters, and maybe the possibility that a lot evolve in sub-plots (I will give you that, but give me that). Those would be promises that, if broken, could reveal the whole scheme. And I don't think someone plotting to kill his wife could be called "holy" after such a scandal.

 

[Thunda]

I've actually moved on and the save game will be gone now - but I'll look out for it again .. it's happened nigh on every game for me!!

I said a few posts back :

2) Make "deals" with backers before they agree to back you. Just sending them money in the hope of raising their opinion is silly. Have them say : Promise to grant me the title Duke of York when your on the throne and I'll back you - if you renage, I'll knack ya and burn yer gerbils

To me - this is what plotting should be about. You make deals with people - sometimes even another "enemy" - to get their support and not just simply a case of sending them money till they like you enough. They might want your support in their own plot - something you'd rather not do or agree with - but you need them on board so you have to reluctantly agree.

A case of "plot to take the throne and send people money till they agree" is a bit crap really compared to what it could be.

 

[Dominae]

I think if the non-Assassination plots triggered and then you got a series of events over the next few days/weeks/months (depending on the severity of the plot) it could be more interesting.

So you're trying to revoke a Count's title on a county, you get options to try and fabricate your own claims (say, of a long-lost, probably fake but interesting dead relative - i.e. "Well I'm descended from Grandpa So-and-so the Awesomely Powerful, so the land is actually mine!") or you try and prove their claim to the lands as false, or maybe just bureaucratic wrangling (well, actually Count XYZ, you forgot to get your paperwork notarized by the proper officials).

Have a pool of possible events, or possible options to choose that are random so you can't just "always choose the top option" and succeed.

Factoring in the other members of the plot would be nice too. Maybe the other dukes you invited all confront the king at a feast together, and "suggest" he abdicate. Perhaps the high intrigue plot-invite fakes an assassination attempt on YOU, and leaves obvious evidence it was from Count ABC, framing them and allowing you to imprison & revoke on them.



Otherwise, yes, plots just seem overpowered at times, or completely impossible if your dynasty head isn't well liked.

 

[Sotof]

I completely agree with you, Wallain, even when you say that plots right now work fair enough but could be enhanced. I would like more interactions with the plotters, and maybe the possibility that a lot evolve in sub-plots (I will give you that, but give me that). Those would be promises that, if broken, could reveal the whole scheme. And I don't think someone plotting to kill his wife could be called "holy" after such a scandal.

Aye. I would like some more plotting, intrigue, consequences, and so on in the system. It would be nice. And maybe it could even backfire like the plot that killed Julius Caesar (especially if you kill a beloved king/ruler/whatever). I also like this idea:

So you're trying to revoke a Count's title on a county, you get options to try and fabricate your own claims (say, of a long-lost, probably fake but interesting dead relative - i.e. "Well I'm descended from Grandpa So-and-so the Awesomely Powerful, so the land is actually mine!") or you try and prove their claim to the lands as false, or maybe just bureaucratic wrangling (well, actually Count XYZ, you forgot to get your paperwork notarized by the proper officials).

Have a pool of possible events, or possible options to choose that are random so you can't just "always choose the top option" and succeed.

Factoring in the other members of the plot would be nice too. Maybe the other dukes you invited all confront the king at a feast together, and "suggest" he abdicate. Perhaps the high intrigue plot-invite fakes an assassination attempt on YOU, and leaves obvious evidence it was from Count ABC, framing them and allowing you to imprison & revoke on them.

Where you pick a strategy on how to actually put this plot to life. It just makes it feel more like an actual plot is going on rather than... Well what happens now.

 

[Arizal]

Another little thing, not necessarily related to plot, but to realism. I realize that claims are important, but shouldn't there be a scale in their importance? In my Caithness game, I married a scottish princess, then had a son, then assassinate the horrible bitch (really, she was that horrible in her sins) and claimed Scotland to avoid the destruction of my realm between my two sons. My son's claim wasn't so strong, since the scottish king was still alive and well and had personally authorized the mariage. Such claims should happen in trouble circumstances, such as for the 100 years war, not after such an unwilling and stupid scheme. Granted, I had difficulties to be accepted by the scottish, but I shoudn't have been able to claim the throne in the first place!

It would be great if we had a scale for claims related to the current owner, like "stronger", "equal*", "weaker" and other possible levels. That could show the degree of legitimacy we have.

*Equal would be really rare and could trigger a great succession crisis.

 

[Alerias]

The base odds to accept the plots without a fight are 9 to 1, modified a bit by traits and such. You got lucky.

Plots are actually fun and balanced IMO. I like the new plots that help you reshape your realm a bit as a ruler even though they take effort. I do think there could be some interface improvements though, theres alot of mindless and needless clicking both to execute and battle plots.

 

[Alerias]

*Equal would be really rare and could trigger a great succession crisis.

Well we had 'claim strength' in Eu3 so I guess its not impossible to do but it would add a layer to an already very complicated system. Still maybe it would be worth looking into a three-tier system for an expansion.

 

[Sotof]

I like the idea of claim strength. An "easy" way to do it would be to let be dependent on the line of succession (the higher you are the stronger your claim is). Elective could for example give a claim to other people that were voted for and if the voting was really close it could spawn a succession war. It could also reflect on how likely a character would be to pursue the claim, I mean... Someone with an extremely weak claim to the throne might not want to really press it, but in game they almost always do.

 

[Arizal]

This is exactly what I was thinking, thanks for the word "strength", I was unsure of how to name it. Additionnaly, this could help us getting rid of the "pretender" trait. I really don't like that when fear having a second son because he will surely hate me. I should be pleased, at contrary, that my dynasty expands.

 

[Alerias]

This is exactly what I was thinking, thanks for the word "strength", I was unsure of how to name it. Additionnaly, this could help us getting rid of the "pretender" trait. I really don't like that when fear having a second son because he will surely hate me. I should be pleased, at contrary, that my dynasty expands.

Have pretenders ever really been a problem for you? I dunno, Ive had a couple second/third sons revolt, but they only get their special CB once, and only few a few years...

 

[whosthebestcop]

I've actually moved on and the save game will be gone now - but I'll look out for it again .. it's happened nigh on every game for me!!

I wonder if you could post a pic of your characters skills and traits as well as the kings who you were plotting against. Some skills and traits make it easier to get higher % and more willing backers.

 

[Arizal]

Have pretenders ever really been a problem for you? I dunno, Ive had a couple second/third sons revolt, but they only get their special CB once, and only few a few years...

No, not really, because I always give them nothing. Though, I find it odd that my younger sons automatically seem to hate their older brother (-50 is a big hit). I'm pretty sure the reality wasn't that bad. If the principle of succession is well recognized, they should be kinder.

 

[Alerias]

No, not really, because I always give them nothing. Though, I find it odd that my younger sons automatically seem to hate their older brother (-50 is a big hit). I'm pretty sure the reality wasn't that bad. If the principle of succession is well recognized, they should be kinder.

Penalty or not I always give the sun and the moon (the best duchies) to my brothers and very rarely do I have to fight them. The penalty doesnt tell the whole story.

 

[Sotof]

No, not really, because I always give them nothing. Though, I find it odd that my younger sons automatically seem to hate their older brother (-50 is a big hit). I'm pretty sure the reality wasn't that bad. If the principle of succession is well recognized, they should be kinder.

I agree. Might even add the option for those sons to recognize the successor to the throne, making their own claim disappear(or make it weaker), but giving them a relations boost. Of course someone ambitious should be unlikely to do this, but someone content should often do it.

 

[Arizal]

I agree. Might even add the option for those sons to recognize the successor to the throne, making their own claim disappear(or make it weaker), but giving them a relations boost. Of course someone ambitious should be unlikely to do this, but someone content should often do it.

This is a wonderful idea which would solve much problems without being too difficult to implement in its first expression (if we doesn't want the claim strenght right now). It seems artificial for me that only two people are pretenders, and then all is calm. More political manoeuver should be necessary to allow someone to overtly claim something that "rightfully" belong to another. I'm not saying if the heir is an imbecile (or, sadly for the feminists, a girl where most of the others were men) there shouldn't be some tensions, however. Some factors should add concerning the likelihood of an uncertain succession, such as religion, culture, capacity, sex, age of the dynasty (if they are in power since 25 or 250 years) and place in the succession line.