Plots : Too cheap and easy?

[Sotof]

This is a wonderful idea which would solve much problems without being too difficult to implement in its first expression (if we doesn't want the claim strength right now). It seems artificial for me that only two people are pretenders, and then all is calm. More political manoeuvre should be necessary to allow someone to overtly claim something that "rightfully" belong to another. I'm not saying if the heir is an imbecile (or, sadly for the feminists, a girl where most of the others were men) there shouldn't be some tensions, however. Some factors should add concerning the likelihood of an uncertain succession, such as religion, culture, capacity, sex, age of the dynasty (if they are in power since 25 or 250 years) and place in the succession line.

Yeah. I don't have that much to add to this really, I just find we truly agree on this one.

 

[Philo32b]

My Solutions :

1) Tone down the plot power %. It's crazy how one man can have over 100% individually against an entire realm the size of England and it's just a matter of finding a mug to say "yeah, alright".

2) Make "deals" with backers before they agree to back you. Just sending them money in the hope of raising their opinion is silly. Have them say : Promise to grant me the title Duke of York when your on the throne and I'll back you - if you renage, I'll knack ya and burn yer gerbils

3) Have a timer both between choosing of plots and a "cool down" timer ie, if you lose the throne start any Plot Powers to recover it at a -200% penalty and then each month the penalty lessens.

I like Thunda's fix back on page 1. It would help in another area that plots fall down in: exploiting courtiers for their claims. Lately I've been experimenting with a nuance on the old "invite a courtier with a claim to my domain, grant one of my counties, and then push their claim" tactic. Immediately once they have their new county I start a plot to revoke my new vassal's county in my domain. My plot score is already way high and there's always someone who will back it. And if the poor bastard fights to retain the new county (most do), I can imprison him afterwards and revoke the title for free anyway. So I'm able to instantly reuse the county to continually expand without dealing with the mess of trying to get my new vassal to revolt. This isn't right.

Plots need to have some collateral effects that constrain you or tie you up, which is why I liked Thunda's #2. Maybe something as simple as an event likely to follow within a year or two where that plot backer asks for something in return, with a loss of prestige and a big malus if you refuse. That would make using it more realistic and more balanced in gameplay.

 

[unmerged(464016)]

I think if the non-Assassination plots triggered and then you got a series of events over the next few days/weeks/months (depending on the severity of the plot) it could be more interesting.

So you're trying to revoke a Count's title on a county, you get options to try and fabricate your own claims (say, of a long-lost, probably fake but interesting dead relative - i.e. "Well I'm descended from Grandpa So-and-so the Awesomely Powerful, so the land is actually mine!") or you try and prove their claim to the lands as false, or maybe just bureaucratic wrangling (well, actually Count XYZ, you forgot to get your paperwork notarized by the proper officials).

Have a pool of possible events, or possible options to choose that are random so you can't just "always choose the top option" and succeed.

Factoring in the other members of the plot would be nice too. Maybe the other dukes you invited all confront the king at a feast together, and "suggest" he abdicate. Perhaps the high intrigue plot-invite fakes an assassination attempt on YOU, and leaves obvious evidence it was from Count ABC, framing them and allowing you to imprison & revoke on them.



Otherwise, yes, plots just seem overpowered at times, or completely impossible if your dynasty head isn't well liked.

You would eventually learn the right sequence to get the result you want though. Only other way would be to rely heavily on RNG , which doesn't lead to a more complex or better system than the current. Risk vs Reward RNG is better than arbitrary rng.





To me the real issue is the lack of ability to entertain and woo other nobles. As it stands you have like 2 options to get someone who is borderline to join your plot.

1. Send them a "gift"..... so you pay them basically.

2. Park your chancellor in their province and hope for the best.

I don't really think the game could handle an overly complex relations simulator (and besides , its CK 2 not the Sims). But a few more options here would make plots flow a bit better. Maybe your spy master knows a few dirty secrets about a potential plot backer? maybe your spymaster has been told to "follow" a potential plot backers Son , and may be liable to shiv him for some reason....... Perhaps you might promise a potential plot backer a piece of the prize (you are trying to usurp the throne , im sure you could sling him another county or maybe even promote him to duke!). It doesn't need a huge overhaul (or more so i don't think one would be viable here) , the player simply needs more options to influence the number of backers they get ( and with that should come the opposite. Attempt to bribe the wrong person and he may permanently be out of the plot , or worse , spill the beans on it). Likewise with regards to "wooing" them , maybe you could invite them to a party or a feast (with REAL options lol. Provide wenches to a chaste , shy , homosexual and he might be unimpressed with your hosting abilities). And with these new choices , perhaps a percentage change wouldn't hurt. As it stands , sometimes the percentages seem odd. Ive plotted to see the duchy of someone go to another ruler. I found 1 backer and he instantly gave the plot 110% power even though he was just a weak trash count (tho there was no way i could get any other person to back it). I asked the Emperor to join it , he accepted but didn't do anything lol. The whole thing made no sense.

 

[Dearmad]

This is just getting silly ..

Upon my King dying the usual hullabaloo occurred when every vassal decided to want a piece of the throne and due to being spread to thin in an external war at the time, I actually got mullered by the treasonous scum at home and lost the throne ..

Great! Seriously! Great!

But then what? I check in the Ambition / Plot window and see "Plot : Acquire the throne" .. so I say to myself .. lets see .. I instigate the plot .. see that I have one backer to take me to about 200% plot power .. Send of a letter to the King who's been crowned for all of 1 day ... and ... Yep, he gives me the throne back that he's just won.

I'm sorry - but that is seriously borked if that's WAD. He just destroyed my armies at home with the support of 4 of the other 5 Dukes and then gives it up after 1 day after I send him another harsh letter telling him off for being a very naughty boy.

House rule : Completely ignore the plot system in CK2 ..

It's because you are the only literate person in England and WHO KNOWS what your letters may say... so perhaps best to just make you King.

 

[unmerged(475846)]

I agree that plots are too easy. I don't use them when I play since they are too imbalanced - you can wipe out whole chain of pretenders in no time free of charge. They are great idea that should be in the game, but they need a lot of fixing I think. Here is what occurs to me right in the moment:

- plot needs time to organize and to execute it - if plot gains power over time it would be a better idea than to start right ahead with more than 100% - it is unreal to organize and kill a King in an instant and his successors right away after him !!! At least successors should be suspicious...

- also plot discovery should lower significant the chance of success - if you know someone is about to kill you you can at least take some precautions.

- you must be able to participate in more that one plot - let say 4-5 max. In real life you can participate in few projects simultaneously.

- I have never seen plot against me to succeed - I have 70+ courtiers. 1/3 of them hate me in their guts. I have more than 10 pretenders to my titles rich in money but no one is killing me !!! This needs fixing. You should not try to please only vassals but your courtiers too.

- I see plots with dozens supporters at 100% and above staying for years till their initiator dies - this is bug I believe

- plots must have different "weight" - it is not one and the same to kill a count and to become The King with no claim at all - such situation is unreal and does not corresponds to old customs. Also you can easily poison someone in your court but I believe it is much harder to do the same to some prestige ruler... Also if you try to assassinate the most estimable Emperor with 3000+prestige and when you fail it is not real the other rulers (or all the other characters with positive attitude towards him) to think good of you...

I can guess of other issues too, but it is already a big post :glare:, I just believe this feature with plots is not yet ready and balanced. I hope to be fixed it in next patches.

 

[unmerged(485423)]

I dunno - maybe I've just been lucky with the "dice rolls" .. or at best, under-estimating how well I'm actually doing ..

Maybe Thunda. I have been playing as the King of Poland for 3 generations, attempted a plot to kill a greedy Duke who was also a herectic and 102% plot power... and failed. I had to endure endless years of killing him and his kin off before I could restore the Duchy to its 'rightful' place. I would say you are probably doing quite well to have achieved a successful plot twice in a row. As Snaake said, in Scotland's case, it was probably the warring families which gave you a window of opportunity rather than providing a hinderance. That's my take on it anyway.

 

[Callendor]

Well, this rarely happens (even with players) and strange things happen in History. So, I guess it's all right as long as it is really rare.