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I still think the key word here is "legacy". I would be great to to have a DLC that overhauled the Holy Roman and Eastern Roman Empires, Empires in general, and maybe even add a decision to reform the Original Roman Empire if you control a lot of land( and Rome), but the first thing that comes to mind for a dlc dealing with the HRE and ERE would be "Successors of Rome", so I think that Legacy of Rome may be directed toward republics, as republics and democracy are some of Rome's legacies. There are a lot of interesting gameplay mechanics that could be added for republics (and even feudal players) such as:
Centers of Trade
Political factions
Playing as unlanded characters, which I think would be the most important aspect of this dlc, and one of the barriers to playing as republics.
 
Gedierond said:
Some people referred to a translatio imperii mechanic. I understand what the concept meant for feudal Europe, but how would it translate to a gameplay mechanic?
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It's something that many, including me, would love. The thing is that everyone has his own version of how it should work. My idea is to give unique features to the Holy Roman Empire (the usual set of extra opportunities plus extra challenges to balance them out) but, if any alternative Catholic Empire had to emerge, it would have the opportunity (according to some, I personally am not sure: it should) challenge the authority of the HRE as the only legitimate heir of Rome. This would imply some set of intra-chacters diplomacy and warfare, and would mean to substitute the HRE as the actual HRE (but possibly retaining the original empire's CoA/shield, color and culture/capital).

I personally extend this idea saying that in this case, a 'demoted' HRE would be simply called 'Empire of Germania'.

This view takes the introduction of the new 1.06 empires as an irreversible fact. Before that, when the new empires were still (hotly) debated, there where people who claimed that in order to form a new Catholic Empire you had to defeat the HRE via a special CB or something like that, and that there cannot be more than one Catholic/Western Empires (of course the Latin Empire, or more properly the Empire of Romania, can still be there at the same time). Personally I think that despite this being a more historical take, it would also be more gameplay limiting and not be that distinct from the pre-1.06 apparently common flooding of Invasion CBs against the HRE.
 
Ciccillo Rre said:
It's something that many, including me, would love. The thing is that everyone has his own version of how it should work. My idea is to give unique features to the Holy Roman Empire (the usual set of extra opportunities plus extra challenges to balance them out) but, if any alternative Catholic Empire had to emerge, it would have the opportunity (according to some, I personally am not sure: it should) challenge the authority of the HRE as the only legitimate heir of Rome. This would imply some set of intra-chacters diplomacy and warfare, and would mean to substitute the HRE as the actual HRE (but possibly retaining the original empire's CoA/shield, color and culture/capital).

I personally extend this idea saying that in this case, a 'demoted' HRE would be simply called 'Empire of Germania'.

This view takes the introduction of the new 1.06 empires as an irreversible fact. Before that, when the new empires were still (hotly) debated, there where people who claimed that in order to form a new Catholic Empire you had to defeat the HRE via a special CB or something like that, and that there cannot be more than one Catholic/Western Empires (of course the Latin Empire, or more properly the Empire of Romania, can still be there at the same time). Personally I think that despite this being a more historical take, it would also be more gameplay limiting and not be that distinct from the pre-1.06 apparently common flooding of Invasion CBs against the HRE.
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Ok, I understand your idea, and it´s in fact quite interesting. What I think would be difficult is to give advantages to the Holy Roman Emperor that make it worthy defying him for the title, but without those advantages being too OP. Maybe prestige/piety boosts similar to those obtained when you create the Kingdom of Jerusalem...

EDIT: And Prestige/Piety losses if you lose the title, so as to avoid exploits.
 
cl4yn4tion said:
I still think the key word here is "legacy".
Click to expand...

I think the key word here is "imagination." We have nothing other than a name and yet there is post after post of nothing but wild speculation.

Remember when the Steam info for the African DLC leaked? Everyone quickly made comments to the tune of "oh goodie, African portraits!" and that DLC ended up being sprites. I think it's more likely that "Legacy of Rome" is a song pack rather than a substantive content pack. That's not to say that it's not possible that it is a content pack, but to ignore the very likely scenario that "Legacy of Rome" is just a cool sounding name for a new DLC track is pretty naive.
 
Gedierond said:
Some people referred to a translatio imperii mechanic. I understand what the concept meant for feudal Europe, but how would it translate to a gameplay mechanic?
Click to expand...
Some basic things...
- having your empire called "Holy Roman Empire (of Germany/Spain/Brittania)"
- having the pope crown you personally
- more prestige than any other empire title except BYZ
- mission / obsession with controlling the city of Rome.

Other stuff could be added on top. Events revolving around how you can (try to) boss other rulers around. But since there aren't any events in the game that make the HRE special as opposed to other empires, at present there wouldn't be anything else.
 
Jia Xu said:
I think the key word here is "imagination." We have nothing other than a name and yet there is post after post of nothing but wild speculation.

Remember when the Steam info for the African DLC leaked? Everyone quickly made comments to the tune of "oh goodie, African portraits!" and that DLC ended up being sprites. I think it's more likely that "Legacy of Rome" is a song pack rather than a substantive content pack. That's not to say that it's not possible that it is a content pack, but to ignore the very likely scenario that "Legacy of Rome" is just a cool sounding name for a new DLC track is pretty naive.
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well, every song DLC so far had the name "Song of XYZ" , so that's statistically unlikely.
besides, I doubt they'll want to name a small-content DLC something cool, for marketing purposes
 
Pagans aren't very important or DLC worthy, unless they expand the timeline backwards a bit. Pagans are only present in the backwaters of Europe and they quickly get wiped out, with the exception of the Mongols who usually convert.
 
PorkSol said:
Pagans aren't very important or DLC worthy, unless they expand the timeline backwards a bit. Pagans are only present in the backwaters of Europe and they quickly get wiped out, with the exception of the Mongols who usually convert.
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i agree, i dont see what all the fuss is about with playing pagans...

it deffinately wouldnt be a DLC i would buy... at full price.
 
PorkSol said:
Pagans aren't very important or DLC worthy, unless they expand the timeline backwards a bit. Pagans are only present in the backwaters of Europe and they quickly get wiped out, with the exception of the Mongols who usually convert.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Euro-pagans have next to no chance of surviving. The holy war CB and the ability to revoke titles from infidels at medium crown authority stakes the odds against them so badly that they wouldn't be worth playing. The only decent pagans are the Mongols (who are targeted by specific events which convert them out of paganism), and maybe a united Cumania (which has no future in any case, because it would be the first target of the Golden Horde when it lands in Surgut).
 
The pagan dlc is probably gonna be combined with republic or theocracies.. or both. Personally i would very much like to try out pagans, its gonna be a real challenge. Hoping for expanded timeline tho.
 
cl4yn4tion said:
I still think the key word here is "legacy". I would be great to to have a DLC that overhauled the Holy Roman and Eastern Roman Empires, Empires in general, and maybe even add a decision to reform the Original Roman Empire if you control a lot of land( and Rome), but the first thing that comes to mind for a dlc dealing with the HRE and ERE would be "Successors of Rome", so I think that Legacy of Rome may be directed toward republics, as republics and democracy are some of Rome's legacies. There are a lot of interesting gameplay mechanics that could be added for republics (and even feudal players) such as:
Centers of Trade
Political factions
Playing as unlanded characters, which I think would be the most important aspect of this dlc, and one of the barriers to playing as republics.
Click to expand...

Most medieval text refers to the early medieval period not in disruptive way regardign the Late Roman Empire, but more like a transformation period, as such I've seen more than one book refering to the grey area in the 5th and 6th century as an in-between period, in which it's often remarked the legacy of the Roman Empire... of course, it's a lot of words to say "I hope it's an early medieval period DLC" =P
 
PorkSol said:
Pagans aren't very important or DLC worthy, unless they expand the timeline backwards a bit. Pagans are only present in the backwaters of Europe and they quickly get wiped out, with the exception of the Mongols who usually convert.
Click to expand...

Totally agree, but if they do expand the timeline, then it's almost fundamental!
 
1. Pagans could be made to, as they did in real history, be more capable of survival than they are in CKII at the moment. It was almost heartbreaking in my current game as the 1122 Catholic Gryfs of Pommerania to see Lithuania and Finland almost completely obliterated within about five years. As it currently stands, it's unrealistic and the land just serves as a super easy land grab for anyone who borders them. I think removing Holy Wars against European pagans might do the trick, and instead make the player/AI have to work to be able to take the land. I'd still be in favor of an expanded timeline, but with the right mechanics it wouldn't be a complete necessity. Heck, I don't typically play with it but CK2+ has European Pagans that have a shot at survival. I'd like to think PI could do an ever finer job.

2. Now, I know you can twist this other ways... but ultimately, how is "Legacy of Rome" anything BUT Orthodox/ERE content? Yes, they were a Republic at one point too, but that's not the first thing regarding Rome one thinks about when they're brought up. Not only that, but would "Legacy of Rome" really be the title you'd go with for an expansion that focuses on merchant republics? Yeah, there's a certain connection, but it hardly strikes me as a logical way to market Republic DLC. I don't go "Legacy of Rome... OMG, VENICE IS A REPUBLIC LIKE ROME WAS A LONG TIME AGO SO VENIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!!!" It's going, in some way, to deal with the ERE. With any luck it'll include with it tweaks for overall Orthodox gameplay and perhaps some internal strife mechanics to keep the big blobs in line.

That, and Republics are an even smaller part of the game world than Pagans, even excluding the Mongols. You have Venice, Genoa, a county in Ireland, and I think a couple more Italian counties, and I think that's it. I'd like to see them playable some day, but on their own they're an absolutely tiny piece of the game world (and, like the Pagans, I've often seen them get stomped by the HRE). They'd need to be included with some over-arching economy mechanic overhauls, I think. And, again, when I think "Legacy of Rome", creating a trading empire ala The Hansa in EUIII isn't what comes to my mind. Both of those would be fun, Pagans and Republics (and maybe someday theocracies, but they're even less significant than Republics in the timeline of CKII). Personally, being able to play a Pagan and try to carve out my own piece of the world while holding off the Christians sounds like amazing good fun times, and it was when I've played with em'... just empty due to lack of unique Pagan stuff. Though I'd welcome Republics if only because it'd likely mean an overhaul to the economics of the game. But playing as Venice or Genoa and just focusing on building a super trade network sounds incredibly boring next to leading the barbarians of Lettigalia in glory against the Christian invaders.
 
I'm not really sold on the idea of a pagan DLC. I think an interesting game could be built around the decline of ancient and medieval paganism, but CK2 is not that game. The meta-narrative of any CK2 game is a growth in player power and resources. Pagans in the CK2 period, on the other hand, experienced a steady decline in numbers and territory until they were virtually extinct in Europe by the end of the game's time period. So you can either have a realistic game where the player's pagan kingdom is increasingly constrained and Christian attacks become more vicious and more frequent until your kingdom is inevitably destroyed, or you can have some wildly ahistorical nonsense where a pagan player conquers huge swathes of Christian territory and converts half the map to Asatru. Neither of those options sounds very satisfying to me. They certainly sound a lot less fun than playing Christians or Muslims.

Also, just from a historical knowledge standpoint, there are few primary sources about pagans from this time period (and none, AFAIK, actually written by the pagans themselves), so I'm not even sure what kind of information could be used to build pagan game mechanics. It's hard enough to create fun and satisfying game mechanics even for societies that left tons of primary sources like Christians and Muslims.

Now if Paradox wanted to do a bundled "Pagans and Heretics" DLC that includes a revamp of holy wars and antipopes, introduction of the Northern Crusades, the growth of heresies like the Cathars, and so on, I could get on board with that. But that's pretty different from what people in this thread seem to want.
 
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