El Pip said:
What, surely the people yearn for the return of the king?
Hrmm. At the risk of bogging down in semantics, why not a minority government?
I gleefully predict the Turks... do nothing.
- 1
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
What, surely the people yearn for the return of the king?
Hrmm. At the risk of bogging down in semantics, why not a minority government?
I gleefully predict the Turks... do nothing.
The Greeks are united in their struggle against the common enemy - each other.
Will Phil the Greek get a look in here? Possibly on one of the new destroyers, before romancing a young and impressionable English princess....
Will Phil the Greek get a look in here? Possibly on one of the new destroyers, before romancing a young and impressionable English princess....
- 1
That was a great update, and it's length is demonstrative of how convoluted the Greek situation was, thereby giving us a clear indication of why you were so frustrated prior to the original balkans update.
I am curious about how much power George II has, and what the limitations are wrt how he can intervene in domestic issues. It would seem to me that if Greece is heading into a state of paralysis due to the influence of radicals on each wing of the political spectrum, perhaps he could intervene and act as a moderator... with force, so to speak. Perhaps not exerting his will through force, but at least with everyone acknowledging that he could.
Oh... And I agree with Faeelin, outside of completing their exertion of control over the straits, they aren't likely to look beyond their own borders, especially when the Great Turk makes his final exit.
I am curious about how much power George II has, and what the limitations are wrt how he can intervene in domestic issues. It would seem to me that if Greece is heading into a state of paralysis due to the influence of radicals on each wing of the political spectrum, perhaps he could intervene and act as a moderator... with force, so to speak. Perhaps not exerting his will through force, but at least with everyone acknowledging that he could.
Oh... And I agree with Faeelin, outside of completing their exertion of control over the straits, they aren't likely to look beyond their own borders, especially when the Great Turk makes his final exit.
- 1
Can I post a dissenting opinion on Turkey here?
Greece is tottering on the edge of an early civil war
Italy is neutered
UK has pissed off Turkey by a) ignoring her in the Montreux non-Conference and b) occupying the Ionian islands (and Cyprus/Iraq come to that)
Bulgaria is unaligned
Romania is also unaligned
Should Romania and/or Bulgaria align with the Germans (I hesitate to call a Nazi-Yugoslav alliance the "Axis" :rofl: ) then it would make sense for Turkey to do so as well, either formally or informally.
A more strongly pro-German, anti-British Turkey could cause trouble in Greece or Iraq or even in Syria
Greece is tottering on the edge of an early civil war
Italy is neutered
UK has pissed off Turkey by a) ignoring her in the Montreux non-Conference and b) occupying the Ionian islands (and Cyprus/Iraq come to that)
Bulgaria is unaligned
Romania is also unaligned
Should Romania and/or Bulgaria align with the Germans (I hesitate to call a Nazi-Yugoslav alliance the "Axis" :rofl: ) then it would make sense for Turkey to do so as well, either formally or informally.
A more strongly pro-German, anti-British Turkey could cause trouble in Greece or Iraq or even in Syria
- 1
Not to mention the issue over the now British-run Ionian Islands off the coast of [Edit*] Greece, an overtly aggressive Turkey (increased naval presence around Bosphorus) brings a further complication for protecting British supply lines and oil into / out of Iraq / Egypt etc (and some other inconsequential assets...like...err...churches). In turn it may give the Greek people - drifting along in a kind of limbo - the focus and direction socially, economically and politically and backed by an increasingly more strident Britain under the auspices of defeating an old enemy once and for all.Derek Pullem said:
I wonder what Stalin will think of restricted trade through this route? Also, whatever Turkey does, Greece is not far behind. There are naval contracts for Britain to strike here with Greece who has always been keen on her navy. Russian oilfields in Baku would be under-threat if Turkey lost this kind of conflict between a potentially pro-British Greece and a potentially pro-Nazi Turkey. Russia's own interest's here are key I would think. Perhaps a Turkish-style Molotov-Churchill pact is already being carefully written up in the hushed corridors of power should Britain and Russia be pulled into this minor melee? There would certainly need to be a large Greek presence (and Brit's - peacekeeping?) to quell any Turkish dissent of a completely conquered Turkey...so maybe a division of Turkey between British and Russian interests would be of suitable benefit for both sides...but certainly the repercussions there are mouth-watering.
Very complex ideas above, not sure I have sorted them out completely or hi-jacked Pip's storyline off onto another tangent (Pip, I apologise in advance and I'm sure you'll set me straight if indeed this is the case
) Purely supposition on my part old chap. Hmmm...it's definitely a two-piper. *scratches head quizzically*
Last edited:
- 1
I'd rather expect the Greeks to come off worse in any conflict with Turkey - unless Britain intervenes. It would depend on how far Turkey pushes the conflict. Certainly if Turkey had strong allies (like a German recently victorious against the Italian alliance) it could get interesting in the future.
How many places can Britain get entangled and still have the resources to respond to each conflict. North Africa, Abyssinia and now the Balkans and Turkey - throw in the Middle East if the Arab Revolt kicks off on schedule.
Greece may just go hang if other priorities exist.
How many places can Britain get entangled and still have the resources to respond to each conflict. North Africa, Abyssinia and now the Balkans and Turkey - throw in the Middle East if the Arab Revolt kicks off on schedule.
Greece may just go hang if other priorities exist.
- 1
Balkan politics - more fun than a sackful of ferrets.
But yes, it does look as if the constitutional factions are busy scoring points off each other while all hell breaks out on the streets. The King appears worryingly dependent on the Far Right-infiltrated army - is Greece nominally a democracy or a PA? (And if so, who's the autocrat?)
The Greeks can't hope to win a war with Turkey - fortunately for them, Turkey has no real claims against Greece and is more likely to worry about Britain, France or the Soviet Union. But that may not stop the nationalist nutters trying to start something as way of uniting the nation.
The British presence in the Dodecanese (it is the Dodecanese and not the Ionians, isn't it?) is another wild card. On the one hand, it is the bounden duty of every good Greek nationalist (and communist, for that matter), to bitterly resent to vile foriegn imperialists unjustly despoiling sacred Greek soil - and on the other, a British military presence in the Dodecanese effectively puts Britain on the side of Greece against Turkey. Expect the nationalist ranters to furiously demand immediate British withdrawal - right up to the point when withdrawal becomes a real possibility.
Are the Greeks distant relatives of the Scots by any chance?Davout said:
But yes, it does look as if the constitutional factions are busy scoring points off each other while all hell breaks out on the streets. The King appears worryingly dependent on the Far Right-infiltrated army - is Greece nominally a democracy or a PA? (And if so, who's the autocrat?)
The Greeks can't hope to win a war with Turkey - fortunately for them, Turkey has no real claims against Greece and is more likely to worry about Britain, France or the Soviet Union. But that may not stop the nationalist nutters trying to start something as way of uniting the nation.
The British presence in the Dodecanese (it is the Dodecanese and not the Ionians, isn't it?) is another wild card. On the one hand, it is the bounden duty of every good Greek nationalist (and communist, for that matter), to bitterly resent to vile foriegn imperialists unjustly despoiling sacred Greek soil - and on the other, a British military presence in the Dodecanese effectively puts Britain on the side of Greece against Turkey. Expect the nationalist ranters to furiously demand immediate British withdrawal - right up to the point when withdrawal becomes a real possibility.
- 1
True, however there is still a significant British military presence in the central and eastern Med to engender some form of Turkish resentment towards the Brit's. Seeing an excuse (Britain's Imperialism laid bare by the occupation of the Ionian Islands?) to re-claim the Meditteranean version of Alsace-Lorraine. This may push Greece closer to Britain which has a military presence in the region or not. Turkey may also expect the Middle East to tow the line over any affirmative action against a ham-strung Greek parliament and with that assumption and additional foreign aid / support could feel confident of a (bloodless?) victory. Let's not forget the possibility of certain elements working behind the scenes within Arab circles that could actually tip the Arab cause in Britain's favour however.....Derek Pullem said:
Does Turkey have to have any claims to Greece? There is a several centuries-old enmity between the 2 factions and a hamstrung Greece could see Turkey push for an invasion of the Dodecanese supported by their larger naval presence around the Bosphorus. Turkey could be duped into a more provocative position if she has the political and economical backing of another European country looking for a significant victory abroad? Britain can't have it all her own way, and rightly enough, maybe she will over-stretch herself in this matter after all.merrick said:
Last edited:
- 1
El Pip said:The anti-left bias is subconscious, I'm not trying for any political slant so I guess its just my own views seeping through. Didn't realise it was 'massive' though, I'm trying for historic/accurate but I guess I can't help myself. That said we've just passed 65000 views so it can't be putting to many people off.
Never said it was, old boy
- 1
Sorry Merrick...we're both right and wrong at the same time.merrick said:
The Brit's are occupying the Ionian Islands which are off the West Coast of Greece while the Dodecanese are off the West coast of Turkey and near to the Bosphorus straits. I have sort of re-jigged my own thoughts due to my mix-up of that geography. Hopefully they now make more sense and won't confuse anyone else
Last edited:
- 1
TheHyphenated1 - The British updates comes at the end of this little tour, the next stop on our global review is Africa/Middle East.
Faeelin - While many people did want the Return of the King there were others torn between the Two Towers of monarchism and republicanism. Therefore the army had to make sure the Fellowship of citizens Ringed the correct box on the ballot paper.
No idea where that came from, but it made me chuckle.
Anyway on the question of a Liberal minority government I believe George II would be dead against it. As Venizelists Liberals have exiled him twice, the second time stripping him of his Greek citizenship to boot, I believe he'd fight that possibility tooth and nail. Of course he may have relented if there was no other option, but events intervened before that.
On Turkey you are wrong, if nothing was going to happen I wouldn't have written the paragraph.
Lord Strange - You are correct, British interests in the region demand she pays some attention to ongoing events.
Davout - Greece is suffering the chronic side-effects of being indecisive; either pick a monarchy or not, just don't keep changing every few years. Phil the Greek is knocking around the Highlands I believe, still a few more years of school for him.
Bafflegab - The King's role is vaguely defined at best, certainly as the historic Metaxas' regime was mostly legal (ie he abused the existing laws and constitution to establish his dictatorship) but depended on Royal support I'd say the King can have a great deal of power in the right circumstances.
However to do that the King will need an alternative to support, at the moment his favourite candidate (Metaxas) is prime minister he'll be reluctant to change.
I'm also glad you appreciated my frustration. And even gladder that you like the final result.
Derek Pullem - You are more than welcome to dissent on Turkey, because your are mostly correct. Turkey has the motivation and the opportunity to be far more active than historically, that brief strategic overview covers it quite neatly.
Vann the Red - It does open a multitude of possibilities, hopefully.
scubadoobie2 - First things first;
Post war Eastern Mediterranean, Ionian Islands still Greek, Dodecanese Islands and Rhodes British.
As to the rest, Turkey still hasn't formally announced re-arming the strait so it's going to be a very unpleasant surprise for the Black Sea nations. Historically the conference limited everyone, but gave the Black Sea nations extra tonnage (but still limited on no carriers, etc).
Without such a deal the fleets and trade of Russia/Bulgaria/etc will be utterly at the mercy of Turkish good will, that has to be sorted somehow but the terms are probably going to depend on the bigger strategic situation at the time. If Russia feels its getting a bad deal, and feels it can risk it with everything going on, then it may start issuing threats.
Derek Pullem - Again correct, Britain will be committed worldwide. Policing the former Italian territories, something in the Middle East (not saying what yet ) and the need to garrison India and the North West Frontier. All this with an army only slightly larger than pre-war.
That said the RN will be far less stretched and with Churchill at the RAF that service will certainly be expanding so Britain has some muscles to flex if needed.
merrick - Well the national dress of both Greece and Scotland is.. well a dress, so there is some link there
I think HOI2 gets Greece horribly confused. It starts life as a PA (with the exiled liberal Eleftherios Venizelos as head of air force!) then after Metaxas' coup the country becomes SC (ie more democratic). Swapping those two round would be far closer, as I don't think banning all opposition normally counts as democratic.
But then, as we all know, the Swedes are inept and lazy so we can't be too surprised.
Strategically I think you've hit the nail on the head, the British presence will be bitterly resented up to the point of them leaving, but not further. On this regard the Liberals are a good party to be in power, historically they're the party of Western Alliances (led Greece into the Great War, after the National Schism and changing King of course). But they also have the massively patriotic credentials to make public complaints (and private apologies for said complaints).
scubadoobie2 - Certainly Turkey will need support, as many have touched on there's a web of possible alliances in the region and many possible partners who'd have an interest, Bulgaria and Italy top of the list. Italy for revenge, Bulgaria for an Adriatic coast to break free of the Black Sea dependency.
Alexus - Spiffing news, although by coincidence I've got some more rightwing incompetence coming up in the next update.
Faeelin - While many people did want the Return of the King there were others torn between the Two Towers of monarchism and republicanism. Therefore the army had to make sure the Fellowship of citizens Ringed the correct box on the ballot paper.
No idea where that came from, but it made me chuckle.
Anyway on the question of a Liberal minority government I believe George II would be dead against it. As Venizelists Liberals have exiled him twice, the second time stripping him of his Greek citizenship to boot, I believe he'd fight that possibility tooth and nail. Of course he may have relented if there was no other option, but events intervened before that.
On Turkey you are wrong, if nothing was going to happen I wouldn't have written the paragraph.
Lord Strange - You are correct, British interests in the region demand she pays some attention to ongoing events.
Davout - Greece is suffering the chronic side-effects of being indecisive; either pick a monarchy or not, just don't keep changing every few years. Phil the Greek is knocking around the Highlands I believe, still a few more years of school for him.
Bafflegab - The King's role is vaguely defined at best, certainly as the historic Metaxas' regime was mostly legal (ie he abused the existing laws and constitution to establish his dictatorship) but depended on Royal support I'd say the King can have a great deal of power in the right circumstances.
However to do that the King will need an alternative to support, at the moment his favourite candidate (Metaxas) is prime minister he'll be reluctant to change.
I'm also glad you appreciated my frustration. And even gladder that you like the final result.
Derek Pullem - You are more than welcome to dissent on Turkey, because your are mostly correct. Turkey has the motivation and the opportunity to be far more active than historically, that brief strategic overview covers it quite neatly.
Vann the Red - It does open a multitude of possibilities, hopefully.
scubadoobie2 - First things first;
Post war Eastern Mediterranean, Ionian Islands still Greek, Dodecanese Islands and Rhodes British.
As to the rest, Turkey still hasn't formally announced re-arming the strait so it's going to be a very unpleasant surprise for the Black Sea nations. Historically the conference limited everyone, but gave the Black Sea nations extra tonnage (but still limited on no carriers, etc).
Without such a deal the fleets and trade of Russia/Bulgaria/etc will be utterly at the mercy of Turkish good will, that has to be sorted somehow but the terms are probably going to depend on the bigger strategic situation at the time. If Russia feels its getting a bad deal, and feels it can risk it with everything going on, then it may start issuing threats.
Derek Pullem - Again correct, Britain will be committed worldwide. Policing the former Italian territories, something in the Middle East (not saying what yet
) and the need to garrison India and the North West Frontier. All this with an army only slightly larger than pre-war. That said the RN will be far less stretched and with Churchill at the RAF that service will certainly be expanding so Britain has some muscles to flex if needed.
merrick - Well the national dress of both Greece and Scotland is.. well a dress, so there is some link there
I think HOI2 gets Greece horribly confused. It starts life as a PA (with the exiled liberal Eleftherios Venizelos as head of air force!) then after Metaxas' coup the country becomes SC (ie more democratic). Swapping those two round would be far closer, as I don't think banning all opposition normally counts as democratic.
But then, as we all know, the Swedes are inept and lazy so we can't be too surprised.
Strategically I think you've hit the nail on the head, the British presence will be bitterly resented up to the point of them leaving, but not further. On this regard the Liberals are a good party to be in power, historically they're the party of Western Alliances (led Greece into the Great War, after the National Schism and changing King of course). But they also have the massively patriotic credentials to make public complaints (and private apologies for said complaints).
scubadoobie2 - Certainly Turkey will need support, as many have touched on there's a web of possible alliances in the region and many possible partners who'd have an interest, Bulgaria and Italy top of the list. Italy for revenge, Bulgaria for an Adriatic coast to break free of the Black Sea dependency.
Alexus - Spiffing news, although by coincidence I've got some more rightwing incompetence coming up in the next update.
- 1
I suspect that's a gameplay decision: With Metaxas at the helm Greece has a better chance of joining the allies (and harder to sway for the Axis)
- 1
Derek Pullem said:
You might be looking in the wrong place for a Turkish alliance. A hostile Britain and Greece? Well, the last time this happened, the Turks turned to the Soviet Union.
- 1
Indeed, quite a lot of text for the simple conclusion "Greece is heading towards political paralysis". At least now we all know how Greek politics were in the 30's, even if we didn't need to know that.
Looking forward to the more familiar low countries update.
Looking forward to the more familiar low countries update.
- 1
Hey, I love the depth inherent in these background articles- I haven't seen another AAR from the perspective of a major power that even mentions smaller countries like Greece. It's that sort of depth of research that makes us all tolerate your slower-than-real-time updating speed.
On a note that only I notice, you missed the last update to the table of contents.
On a note that only I notice, you missed the last update to the table of contents.
- 1
Faeelin said:
I considered that but the situation is not as desparate as 1921 and the Communists have shown their "true" colours in the intervening period. If we assume USSR and Germany will be anti-British (eventually) then so long as Turkey does not occupy Greece (something it is probably unable to do and something which would antagonise USSR and UK), it can count on tacit acceptance of its actions by USSR, particularly if it is mostly aimed at French controlled Syria and/or meddling in Iraq politics.
I would say that Germany is more politically acceptable than the godless heathens of USSR
- 1
Thanks for the clarification Pip, I knew you wouldn't let me down. The important point in all this is that the Brit's are now holidaying off the coast of Turkey and in all probability have some navy moored in Rhodes. British tonnage will have a field day with the Turkish navy if they play up. I almost want the Turks to get offended and try and make some demands, but the much wider implications and strategic value of the Brit's in the Dodec's hasn't gone un-noticed, such lovely reward for bringing about the end of the Regia Marina.El Pip said:scubadoobie2 - First things first;
Post war Eastern Mediterranean, Ionian Islands still Greek, Dodecanese Islands and Rhodes British.
Now...is that Nat King Cole I hear warming up in the background.....?
- 1
Hmm, it seems to me that Bulgaria is suddenly in a very interesting position. With territorial demands towards Yugoslavia, Greece and Romania, Tsar Boris has many interesting foreign policy options to pursue. For now his kingdom has few potential allies in the region, but things might get interesting if (and when) local Realpolitik eventually forces Bulgaria to choose sides.
- 1