When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

[Enlil]

In general, I think the distribution of cultures is good. There are nitpicky placement issues (like my stupid Tocharian, Khwarezmian bullshit a few pages back) but the cultures you've chosen to represent are largely solid and major participants in the history of the time. The existence of smaller cultures, for example Galatian which I saw mentioned a little while ago, doesn't mean they should be included, not to undermine their role in history, but because they represented no majority, did not hold independent political power and had mostly been displaced. This is why I don't think it's meaningful to include cultures like Corsican, Sardinian, Sicilian. What do they represent and are they sufficiently different from their neighbors and each other to warrant representation? Are the differences between Geats, Norse and Jute political or cultural? Lastly, I don't think cultures like Suebic, Vandalic and Hepthalite held majorities in the areas they conquered. They were ruling classes over an ethnically and culturally different population. They should definitely rule over these places, but I don't think the places themselves should share their culture initially.

For the purpose of balance, it hurts the game to create significant cultural fault lines where they probably didn't exist.

I see, but the reason some smaller cultures exist is because some of them are important. The Isuarians and the Laconians were participants in history, and were a majority in their own areas. And the Corsican, Maltanesse, Sardinian, Silician, Galatian, and Pontic cultures give neat possibilities. They are small, and will soon probably be wiped out, but to see a Galation warlord create a Celtic Anatolia, or the Corsican language becoming the language of the Kingdom of Corsica (Italy). Those little possibilities give minorities a chance, a chance that a Pontic rebel will liberate a new Pontus. Normally, you will see wide cultures, but the minorities make the game more interesting. In a play-through, I got a Massalian in my court as the Visigoths. He became my steward, and little actually happened. But it was neat to see a minority appear in game.

 

[TSSL]

This looks really great and interesting. Going to throw out a few thoughts in regards to the religion and culture maps:

1. You misspelled "Semitic." On which note, was the Jewish part of Arabia really that large? I don't really know, but it'd be worth checking.
2. What's that lighter shade of green in the cultural map of Britain?
3. A little of Ireland ought to be Christian by this point.
4. Definitely seem to be larger amounts of Germanic settlement than would really be plausible (Suebic, Visigothic, Gothic)
5. In regards to the Punic culture argument... definitely there wouldn't be "Carthaginian" culture, but you could definitely justify a couple of provinces worth of "Punic." After the Romans destroyed (the city of) Carthage, Punic-speakers still existed outside of (the city of) Carthage. I've even read some arguments that the Punic language influenced the development of Maghreb Arabic, though I don't remember the source. But Berber really should be dominant, yeah.
6. What are the different blues in the culture map of Finland and to the east? And the goldish colors in the Baltic?
7. To what extent were Hunnic and Bolghar cultures really distinct at this time? As for Bolghars, do you have melting pot events for the Bulgarian culture to arise if they move into Slavic areas? Melting pot events for other steppe people?
8. Probably should be generally more cultural diversity in Anatolia. Wouldn't all have been Hellenized yet.
9. Not sure that Germanic cultures and religion would extend quite as far east as you have it do so. At least, the New Penguin Historical Atlas of Medieval History would suggest that when Germanics ruled over the more easterly areas, they weren't the majority population, having only moved in recently. I'm pretty sure this atlas overstates the extent of Slavic expansion by this era, but I'd still suggest some Slavic religion or culture areas with Germanic rulers.
10. Might you want to consider splitting up West African paganism? It's kind of a generic catch-all term. While I don't really know anything about their belief systems, I'd be surprised if people in Ghana and the Berber people had too much religious similarity, considering that those peoples have very different origins.

I could probably make some more interesting comments once I get to a history book.

 

[Emir of Aleppo]

The Baloch were mostly Zoroastrian before they became Muslim and are supposed to have immigrated to todays region known as Balochistan in Pakistan and Eastern Iran from somewhere in Western Iran (their language is close to Kurdish). When this happened I am not sure but they were certainly there when the Arabs first came with Islam.

PS: This post was in response to Chef Boyardee post at the top of the previous page. Forgot to use the quote button.

 

[Enlil]

1. You misspelled "Semitic." On which note, was the Jewish part of Arabia really that large? I don't really know, but it'd be worth checking.

Don't worry, it's correct in game.

2. What's that lighter shade of green in the cultural map of Britain?

Romano-British

3. A little of Ireland ought to be Christian by this point.

That has already been pointed out and fixed in a previous post.

4. Definitely seem to be larger amounts of Germanic settlement than would really be plausible (Suebic, Visigothic, Gothic)

That has already been pointed out and fixed in a previous post.

5. In regards to the Punic culture argument... definitely there wouldn't be "Carthaginian" culture, but you could definitely justify a couple of provinces worth of "Punic." After the Romans destroyed Carthage, Punic-speakers still existed outside of Carthage. I've even read some arguments that the Punic language influenced the development of Maghreb Arabic, though I don't remember the source. But Berber really should be dominant, yeah.

They don't comprise a majority in any province though. African Romance will do.

6. What are the different blues in the culture map of Finland and to the east? And the goldish colors in the Baltic?

Those are untouched vanilla cultures.

7. To what extent were Hunnic and Bolghar cultures really distinct at this time? As for Bolghars, do you have melting pot events for the Bulgarian culture to arise if they move into Slavic areas? Melting pot events for other steppe people?

There is a melting pot event.

8. Probably should be generally more cultural diversity in Anatolia. Wouldn't all have been Hellenized yet.

We have added Pontic and Galatian cultures, if you know of more, don't hesitate to add.

9. Not sure that Germanic cultures and religion would extend quite as far east as you have it do so. At least, the New Penguin Historical Atlas of Medieval History would suggest that when Germanics ruled over the more easterly areas, they weren't the majority population, having only moved in recently. I'm pretty sure this atlas overstates the extent of Slavic expansion by this era, but I'd still suggest some Slavic religion or culture areas with Germanic rulers.

That has already been pointed out and fixed in a previous post.

10. Might you want to consider splitting up West African paganism? It's kind of a generic catch-all term. While I don't really know anything about their belief systems, I'd be surprised if people in Ghana and the Berber people had too much religious similarity, considering that those peoples have very different origins.

I'm not sure I'm willing to do that.

I could probably make some more interesting comments once I get to a history book.

cool

 

[BSggg]

Do you use the 1st January 480 as your Startdate? If thats the case you could add Julius Nepos as a Charakter. He was the last (by Name) Emperor of the West but was overthrown by Orestes who made his son Romulus Agustus Emperor. He had until mid of 480 a base in Dalmatia and claims recognized by the Eastern Empire. Maybe you could add an Event like in the AGOT mod (where Aegon can choose if he will help to restore Valyria or fight it) for Soissons and Odoacer where they either choose to bend the knee or denie Nepos. I think i would be intressting to see how the "last of the Emperors" deals with the glourios Rex Sygarius and the barbaric usurper Odoacer.

 

[Erik W]

Do you use the 1st January 480 as your Startdate? If thats the case you could add Julius Nepos as a Charakter. He was the last (by Name) Emperor of the West but was overthrown by Orestes who made his son Romulus Agustus Emperor. He had until mid of 480 a base in Dalmatia and claims recognized by the Eastern Empire. Maybe you could add an Event like in the AGOT mod (where Aegon can choose if he will help to restore Valyria or fight it) for Soissons and Odoacer where they either choose to bend the knee or denie Nepos. I think i would be intressting to see how the "last of the Emperors" deals with the glourios Rex Sygarius and the barbaric usurper Odoacer.

Oh that would be great! And even if Nepos is dead before the start date (either April 25th, May 9th or June 22nd), his general Ovida were still running things in Dalmatia until December 22nd, though it could really be debated if he should be an honorary Emperor for that...

 

[BSggg]

Oh that would be great! And even if Nepos is dead before the start date (either April 25th, May 9th or June 22nd), his general Ovida were still running things in Dalmatia until December 22nd, though it could really be debated if he should be an honorary Emperor for that...

Yeah Ovidas claim is debatable but he could be an ruler on his own without claims. Maybe another decision if he tries to press a claim or abandons the thought about the Restoration of Western Imperial Power?

 

[Erik W]

Here are some more culture-suggestions:

Nabatean - Even though the kingdom is long gone, its Helleno-Christianized people are still here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans#The_Hellenistic_and_Roman_periods
Assyrian - They are still Christian Assyrians today so why shouldn´t they be here as well?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people#After_the_fall_of_Nineveh
Antiochian/Seleucid - From what I can tell, the decendants of the Seleucid aristocracy and colonists are still around today, so therefore you should add them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochian_Greeks
Cypriotic - The isolation of the island should give rise to several changes big enough to make them a seperate culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Cypriots#History
Khazar - They are running around in the steppes somewhere by this time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Tribal_origins_and_early_history
Lastly, after spliting up the Norse culture a bit more, rename it to Norman and make it represent the Ancient Norwegians

 

[Ezumiyr]

Tbh Aegyptos would work as well, as it's part of the Greek-speaking Roman Empire who used -os instead of -us.

No, you would find Aegyptos only in latin poetry. It's either Aigyptos or Aeyptus. Being greek does not just mean you put os instead of us...

 

[JGBeagle]

Looking at my History of Ireland book it says that apparently in the 4th and 5th century there was a large Irish colony in southern Wales. It was located in Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and Cardiganshire (now known as Dyfed) The rulers were of the Déisi, the ruling class spoke Irish and by the 5th century was a bilingual kingdom. There's some other colonies in the area including a lesser important colony in northern Wales and a colony in Scotland that formed the basis for the kingdom. If you're interested I could do some more research on the area and try to make some events regarding Scotland's rise.

 

[Joemit]

Do you use the 1st January 480 as your Startdate? If thats the case you could add Julius Nepos as a Charakter. He was the last (by Name) Emperor of the West but was overthrown by Orestes who made his son Romulus Agustus Emperor. He had until mid of 480 a base in Dalmatia and claims recognized by the Eastern Empire. Maybe you could add an Event like in the AGOT mod (where Aegon can choose if he will help to restore Valyria or fight it) for Soissons and Odoacer where they either choose to bend the knee or denie Nepos. I think i would be intressting to see how the "last of the Emperors" deals with the glourios Rex Sygarius and the barbaric usurper Odoacer.

You would have to make the AI choose no most of the time though.

 

[unmerged(271387)]

Looking at my History of Ireland book it says that apparently in the 4th and 5th century there was a large Irish colony in southern Wales. It was located in Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and Cardiganshire (now known as Dyfed) The rulers were of the Déisi, the ruling class spoke Irish and by the 5th century was a bilingual kingdom. There's some other colonies in the area including a lesser important colony in northern Wales and a colony in Scotland that formed the basis for the kingdom. If you're interested I could do some more research on the area and try to make some events regarding Scotland's rise.

Isn't Iceland considered to have had Irish population as well?

 

[JGBeagle]

Isn't Iceland considered to have had Irish population as well?

Yes, but not until the 9th century.

 

[Andrzej I]

Do you use the 1st January 480 as your Startdate? If thats the case you could add Julius Nepos as a Charakter. He was the last (by Name) Emperor of the West but was overthrown by Orestes who made his son Romulus Agustus Emperor. He had until mid of 480 a base in Dalmatia and claims recognized by the Eastern Empire. Maybe you could add an Event like in the AGOT mod (where Aegon can choose if he will help to restore Valyria or fight it) for Soissons and Odoacer where they either choose to bend the knee or denie Nepos. I think i would be intressting to see how the "last of the Emperors" deals with the glourios Rex Sygarius and the barbaric usurper Odoacer.

This sounds like a rather neat idea. Agreed with Joemit, though, that AI should choose not to support Julius Nepos most of the time, but it could make for an interesting game for a loyalist player-Soissons. Though, also... would Odoacer really bend the knee, given that he usurped the Empire to begin with? Maybe it'd be only for the surviving Roman states, like Soissons.

Edit: And, a brief search reveals that Odoacer did bend the knee, at the ERE's insistence, so... might make sense for him to have the chance too, I guess!

 

[BSggg]

This sounds like a rather neat idea. Agreed with Joemit, though, that AI should choose not to support Julius Nepos most of the time, but it could make for an interesting game for a loyalist player-Soissons. Though, also... would Odoacer really bend the knee, given that he usurped the Empire to begin with? Maybe it'd be only for the surviving Roman states, like Soissons.

Edit: And, a brief search reveals that Odoacer did bend the knee, at the ERE's insistence, so... might make sense for him to have the chance too, I guess!

It would be kind of accurate because Odoacer declared himself "King of Italy" and gave the formal Title of the WRE to the Eastern Empire denouncing Nepos claim in the process. Also Odoacer was "magister militum" before he overthrow Romulus so i think it would be natural for Nepos to declare is Claim on Italy and ask Odoacer to serve hm like he did it under Romulus and Orestes before his wish for land for his soldiers was denied.

 

[Joemit]

Also, when looking at the culture map:
Dalmatian should be called Illyro-Roman.
There shouldn't be that many Goths in the Byzantine Empire.
By Levite you mean Levantine, right? Levites are Jewish, and only make up 4% of all Jewish people.
Corsica should probably be Roman, I read that they only really became Proto-Corsican around 900.
The same with Sardinia.
Also, why the extra province(s) for the Hepthalites? It would probably make conversion to EU4 and stuff like that easier if they weren't there.

 

[Enlil]

Also, when looking at the culture map:
Dalmatian should be called Illyro-Roman.
There shouldn't be that many Goths in the Byzantine Empire.
By Levite you mean Levantine, right? Levites are Jewish, and only make up 4% of all Jewish people.
Corsica should probably be Roman, I read that they only really became Proto-Corsican around 900.
The same with Sardinia.
Also, why the extra province(s) for the Hepthalites? It would probably make conversion to EU4 and stuff like that easier if they weren't there.

Only county is the Tarim Basin

And I called it Dalmatian is because there would be a ton of Romano-(blank) cultures.

 

[Joemit]

Only county is the Tarim Basin
And I called it Dalmatian is because there would be a ton of Romano-(blank) cultures.

What's it for?
Oh, ok. Are all those Roman cultures in the same group?
Oh, and for Insular Christianity you could use the Celtic cross. -Although it is a bit white supremacisty, so I'd be careful about using it.

 

[Erik W]

It would be kind of accurate because Odoacer declared himself "King of Italy" and gave the formal Title of the WRE to the Eastern Empire denouncing Nepos claim in the process. Also Odoacer was "magister militum" before he overthrow Romulus so i think it would be natural for Nepos to declare is Claim on Italy and ask Odoacer to serve hm like he did it under Romulus and Orestes before his wish for land for his soldiers was denied.

There is certainly a point to what you´re saying, but even when he had usurped Italy, he still nominally acknowledged the ERE as his overlord. In fact, it was Emperor Zeno that initiated the Ostrogothic invasion against him, just because he was so popular and powerful in Italy. He cooperated very much with the Senate, even giving them more power than they had had while the WRE was still around. This leads me to think that the Senate should actually be a legitimate and politically powerful vassal of his realm. Would be kinda interesting to see how Barbarian-led Ravenna and Senate-led (it would naturally be a Republic) Rome would interact with each other in-game!

Edit: The Senate/SPQR or whatever it would be called, would have to be a title that you can´t revoke and neither available for a non-roman to hold. Imagine the mega-revolt that would have erupted if someone had even tried to abolish the Senate!

 

[Enlil]

What's it for?
Oh, ok. Are all those Roman cultures in the same group?
Oh, and for Insular Christianity you could use the Celtic cross.

They are in the latin group. And using the actual symbol would be a good idea.

There is certainly a point to what you´re saying, but even when he had usurped Italy, he still nominally acknowledged the ERE as his overlord. In fact, it was Emperor Zeno that initiated the Ostrogothic invasion against him, just because he was so popular and powerful in Italy. He cooperated very much with the Senate, even giving them more power than they had had while the WRE was still around. This leads me to think that the Senate should actually be a legitimate and politically powerful vassal of his realm. Would be kinda interesting to see how Barbarian-led Ravenna and Senate-led (it would naturally be a Republic) Rome would interact with each other in-game!

Edit: The Senate/SPQR or whatever it would be called, would have to be a title that you can´t revoke and neither available for a non-roman to hold. Imagine the mega-revolt that would have erupted if someone had even tried to abolish the Senate!

This discussion about Nepos and the senate actually is quite interesting. This will most likely make it in game. Also, Chapter 6: Rome is For the Romans has been posted