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Chef Boyardee

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Afghan, which is already in the game, and Bactrian aren't interchangeable, but Afghan is pretty much the continuation of Bactrian culture into the middle ages. If Bactrian were to be represented, it would probably be best through the Afghan, which represents the merging of Kushan, Hepthalite and native Bactrian cultures. On that note, Afghanistan would be mostly Buddhist in this period and Pakistan would be entirely Buddhist. Not sure about Balochistan, or if there was a distinguishable Baloch identity at this point. You probably know this already but India is going to need a lot of work.
 

richvh

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[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_languages" said:
Wiki article on Phoenician languages[/URL]]The significantly divergent later-form of the language that was spoken in the Tyrian Phoenician colony of Carthage is known as Punic; it remained in use there for considerably longer than Phoenician did in Phoenicia itself, arguably surviving into Augustine's time. It may have even survived the Arabic conquest of North Africa: the geographer al-Bakrī describes a people speaking a language that was not Berber, Latin or Coptic in the city of Sirte in northern Libya, a region where spoken Punic survived well past written use.
It's entirely possible that pockets of Punic language and culture (if not religion) survived into the late 5th century (al-Bakri lived in the 11th century)
 

loup99

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It's entirely possible that pockets of Punic language and culture (if not religion) survived into the late 5th century (al-Bakri lived in the 11th century)
Yes, but at that point of time they where more a melting-pot minority in certain provinces than a culture that really did domine the area. If you want to restore Carthage, I recommend playing (as said before) LI and not this mod.
 

Papsukal

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This mod is a dreamed one for me, thank you !
But I noticed a few inaccuracies -sorry if it has been already said. Avars didn't exist per se in 480 : they arrived in Europe only in the middle of the 6th century. In fact, Avars probably have to be identified with the proto-mongolian Rurans (chinese Ruan-Ruan), who forged an empire in Mongolia in the 5th-6th centuries. Though this hypothesis is discussed, Avars were probably a part of the Rurans who fled the Türks, who had overruled the Rurans in Mongolia. Türks then arrived in Central Asia and in Pontic region pursuing the remnants of the Rurans, who were pushed in the Danubian region, where they etablished the Avar khaganate. Instead of them in the Volga Bassin, at that time, were oghuric peoples as Onoghurs, Kutrighurs, Utrighurs, Bulghars and Sabirs (who are already implemented). So imho, Avars should appear in game as an invasion in the Volga. Just as the Turkic Khaganate in Central Asia, btw : is it in your plan to implement the Western Türkic Empire's invasion in the Hephtalites' era (that would be great) ?
About this last ones, I read this comment :

Hey, so some thoughts on the cultural and religious distributions of Central Asia. You've greatly overrepresented the Tocharians, who should be limited to the Tarim Basin. They were also Buddhist and Zoroastrian, not Steppe Pagan. The areas they occupy currently outside of the Tarim Basin should probably be Turkic culture groups - maybe Turkish or Hunnic - or possibly even Uralic people like the Khanty. They were vassals to the Hepthalites, who were also not Steppe Pagan but a strange syncretic Hindu/Zoroastrian/Mithraism that would be difficult to represent with any of the current religions. They ruled over a Zoroastrian and Buddhist population. The Khwarezmians are overrepresented in the west - the western portion bordering the Caspian Sea would have been occupied by Turkic peoples at this point - and underrepresented in the east - they occupied much more of the Tocharian area. They might be better represented with the name Sogdian instead, a related people who played a more significant historical role, persisted much longer and occupied the majority of that territory. The Sogdians were largely Zoroastrian.

If you're interested in online reading about these groups, here are a couple sources -
The Historical Interactions between the Buddhist and Islamic Cultures before the Mongol Empire by Alexander Berzin
On the Nationality of Hepthalites by Kazuo Enoki - page 46 for interesting information about their religion btw
The Impact of the Silk Road Trade on a Local Community: The Turfan Oasis by Valerie Hansen
It would be in fact a big mistake to create a hephtalite religion of their own. The work of Enoki is now quite oudated (1959), and what he said about their religion is based on his false belief that Hephtalites were of an Iranian-Tokharian stock from Western Himalaya. This hypothesis has been crushed by Etienne de la Vaissière in an article pusblished in 2007 (which can be read online : https://www.academia.edu/1476531/Is_There_a_Nationality_of_the_Hephtalites_). Hephtalites were Hunnic groups from the old Xiongnu empire and who migrated in Bactria from Altai in the middle of the 4th century. In other word they were Turkic (or less probably proto-mongolian), and more precisely Oghuric. And if we read the chinse sources cited by Enoki page 46 of his memoirs, there is absolutly no ambiguity on the fact that it contains a description of a tengrist cult, similar to the traditional turkic-mongolic religion which has its roots in the Xiongnus, and not of a strange hindu-zorastrian melting-pot. In an other way, buddhism may have had an influence amongst them, espcially among ones who were established in Western India and Afghanistan, but we know very few about that, and about Hephtalites in general.

Indeed, Khwarezmians were established in the Amu-Darya's delta, and they had their own independent kingdom in this area. Sogdians were divided in a lot of oasis-kingdoms (in a certain point of view, we could say that Khwarezmians were a sort of Western Sogdians, centered on a larger oasis-kingdom, just as the Macedonians were a sort of Northern Greeks during Antiquity), though a theoritical unified kingdom of Sogdiana existed (maybe a titular kingdom ?). Both were indeed largely zoroastrian, but they didn't practice the same zoroastrianism than the Sassanid Persian, as they never had been conquered by the Sassanians. As the persian zoroastrianism was quite a monotheism (were all the old pantheon of gods became lesser angels), very centralized, with an organized clergy, and was iconoclast, the sogdian one were polytheistic, iconodulist, totally unorganized, with patron deities for each cities. May be it could be represented by a zoroastrian heresy (Sogdian Mazdeism ? Central Asian Mazdeism ?).
Buddhism, manicheism and nestorianism were also well represented sogdian merchant communities, and sogdian trade was very important among all Central Asia. It could be very interesting imo to implement this sogdian trade by a system based on the jewish communities, with small sogdian merchant communities which would established themselves in your domain and with Buddhist or Manicheist Sogdians characters who would pop-up in your court.

Just a few ideas... I'm working on Central Asian history, espacially on Central Asian Nomads' History, so if you need a little help about this part of the map...

Again, thank you for your work, this is a hard task ! Good luck !
 

richvh

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Actually, only sort of. Carthage is Vandal in LI, and while a Phoenician culture has been added (post-Shaytana, following hints in a few of his last posts), it's located in Gambia where descendants of Hanno the Navigator's fleet settled.
 

loup99

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Actually, only sort of. Carthage is Vandal in LI, and while a Phoenician culture has been added (post-Shaytana, following hints in a few of his last posts), it's located in Gambia where descendants of Hanno the Navigator's fleet settled.
Sound's Lux Invicta-esque. ;)
 

DarkReborn

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Actually, only sort of. Carthage is Vandal in LI, and while a Phoenician culture has been added (post-Shaytana, following hints in a few of his last posts), it's located in Gambia where descendants of Hanno the Navigator's fleet settled.
Also at Harer, in Ethiopia, IIRC Shaytana hinted at Hanno actually circumnavigating Africa, so we went ahead and added a province ruled by Phoenician nobility but not populated by them.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Everything in Lux Invicta makes sense except when Shaytana just decided that fun > sanity :rolleyes:
Fun has often proven to be better than sanity anyway.
 

loup99

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Everything in Lux Invicta makes sense except when Shaytana just decided that fun > sanity :rolleyes:
One day I will read your entire timeline and look at it more deeply but it seems like Shaytayna had a lot of fun while making it and the mod. :eek:o A lot of what-ifs, too. And the obvious: butterfly effects. ;)

(sorry too for OT)
 

Chef Boyardee

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In general, I think the distribution of cultures is good. There are nitpicky placement issues (like my stupid Tocharian, Khwarezmian bullshit a few pages back) but the cultures you've chosen to represent are largely solid and major participants in the history of the time. The existence of smaller cultures, for example Galatian which I saw mentioned a little while ago, doesn't mean they should be included, not to undermine their role in history, but because they represented no majority, did not hold independent political power and had mostly been displaced. This is why I don't think it's meaningful to include cultures like Corsican, Sardinian, Sicilian. What do they represent and are they sufficiently different from their neighbors and each other to warrant representation? Are the differences between Geats, Norse and Jute political or cultural? Lastly, I don't think cultures like Suebic, Vandalic and Hepthalite held majorities in the areas they conquered. They were ruling classes over an ethnically and culturally different population. They should definitely rule over these places, but I don't think the places themselves should share their culture initially.

For the purpose of balance, it hurts the game to create significant cultural fault lines where they probably didn't exist.
 
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unmerged(174159)

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I think it would be worthwhile to have Suebic/Visigothic etc melting pot cultures that would gradually erase their predecessors in order to assuage the constant foreigner opinion malus.
 

amci

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Definitely looking forward to this mod.

A few things:

You should rename "Nicene" to "Chalcedonian", as the "Nicene" label is broad enough to include the Nestorians, Miaphysites, and Monophysites as well.

Also, why is the Georgian Church separated from the rest of Chalcedonian Christianity? It should be Chalcedonian; it was in full communion with the rest of the Chalcedonian churches.

Carthage itself and the territories around it should be Chalcedonian by the 480s.

Oh, and make sure to throw in a few gnostics scattered around. The Valentinians were still kicking in the 5th century though not constituting a majority in any particular area.


Another few things that comes to mind:

If possible, there should be sympathy traits for members of the same general religious family: Chalcedonians with "Sympathy for Miaphysites" or "Sympathy for Nestorians" for instance. These are important for modeling the theological disputes of the 5th, 6th, and 7th centuries in the east.

Also, if possible, make it more likely that Arians will have traits of tolerance or sympathy for other Christian sects. Historically many Arian rulers were particularly tolerant of Nicene Christians in Italy and Spain.

Including "Stoic" and "Platonist" (and maybe even "Cynic" and "Epicurean") as sect traits for Graeco-Roman pagans (and maybe rarely "Platonist" some Christian characters) would be brilliant.
 
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loup99

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You should rename "Nicene" to "Chalcedonian", as the "Nicene" label is broad enough to include the Nestorians, Miaphysites, and Monophysites as well.

Also, why is the Georgian Church separated from the rest of Chalcedonian Christianity? It should be Chalcedonian; it was in full communion with the rest of the Chalcedonian churches.

Carthage itself and the territories around it should be Chalcedonian by the 480s.

Oh, and make sure to throw in a few gnostics scattered around. The Valentinians were still kicking in the 5th century though not constituting a majority in any particular area.
This is probably a good idea to make the difference between the non-and imperial church factions.
 

Kopnh

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Not sure if this has been changed, but i think that at least at the start date Welsh and Cornish should be Britons but change over time , or if the Saxons' invasion is successful. At the start they were all the one people.
also pretty sure there were "Hellenics" living in the area around sparta up untill around 800
 

ekorovin

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Not sure if this has been changed, but i think that at least at the start date Welsh and Cornish should be Britons but change over time , or if the Saxons' invasion is successful. At the start they were all the one people.
also pretty sure there were "Hellenics" living in the area around sparta up untill around 800
Even if it's not just instance of Maniotic "we are so conservative we really don't get all this "living out of the water", we like how it was 385 millions years ago" thing, Hellenic pagans woudn't constitute the majority in the any province.
 

Darkgamma

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also pretty sure there were "Hellenics" living in the area around sparta up untill around 800
Even after that, they only got converted to Christianity during the reign of Basileios o Makedon
 

Enlil

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Minor tweak: at this point Iceland is actually free of pesky humans, but if you MUST have a culture there it would be Old Irish as Irish monks set up some of the first colonies there before the Vikings did what they do best.
Cool
Carthaginian where nearly exterminated by the romans after the punic wars! As I said before in this thread at the time of 480 there should be no carthaginians at all. It stands on the page that you linked that there where none after the fall of Rome. All of the other suggestions are plausible though.
I'll add them as a possible ruler creator culture too.
Speaking of Irish monks, I think that parts of Ireland should be Insular or Nicene by 480, if not the majority of the island, no?
Sure thing!
Southern part of Ireland could be Nicene and most of the rest insular with some Celtic county maybe .Which is the religion in the tip of Sicily? You could make Syraccuses Hellenic culture too and maybe Helenic religion
Nice, but Ireland would be insular

Wasn't Hellenismos almost totally wiped out at this start date?

I wonder who the last Hellenics were.

Also, perhaps Neo-Platonism could be added as a Nicene heresy?

And why is Insular different from Nicene? Isn't just a cultural thing?
They weren't in true communion with the church, and still had some bits of celtic tradition mixed in. They also had some theological differences with Nicene, especially the calculation of Easter. There are events and descisions an Insular leader can make to conform, and the Pope may ask for you to join the Church. Keeping the Insular tradition alive would be a good challenge.

loup99, you´re proabably right, Carthaginians are proabably extinct by this point.

Suggestions:

Sarmatian - Also a people close to extinction but are still found in the Roman Army and also refugees scattered throughout the former Empire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#Decline_in_the_4th_century
Ghassanid - If Himyarite is a seperate culture of the Bedouins, then why not split them even more?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassanids
Lakhmidian - Same thing here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakhmids#History
Mauri/Mauritanian - We need more variety in western Africa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauri_people
Bactrian - The Iranian version obviously, is still used as THE official language by the Hephthalites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactrian_language
Sogdian - A major people and language along the Silk Road: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdian_people#Sogdians_along_the_Silk_Road
Cool, keep up the great work
 

Enlil

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Definitely looking forward to this mod.

A few things:

You should rename "Nicene" to "Chalcedonian", as the "Nicene" label is broad enough to include the Nestorians, Miaphysites, and Monophysites as well.

Also, why is the Georgian Church separated from the rest of Chalcedonian Christianity? It should be Chalcedonian; it was in full communion with the rest of the Chalcedonian churches.

Carthage itself and the territories around it should be Chalcedonian by the 480s.

Oh, and make sure to throw in a few gnostics scattered around. The Valentinians were still kicking in the 5th century though not constituting a majority in any particular area.


Another few things that comes to mind:

If possible, there should be sympathy traits for members of the same general religious family: Chalcedonians with "Sympathy for Miaphysites" or "Sympathy for Nestorians" for instance. These are important for modeling the theological disputes of the 5th, 6th, and 7th centuries in the east.

Also, if possible, make it more likely that Arians will have traits of tolerance or sympathy for other Christian sects. Historically many Arian rulers were particularly tolerant of Nicene Christians in Italy and Spain.

Including "Stoic" and "Platonist" (and maybe even "Cynic" and "Epicurean") as sect traits for Graeco-Roman pagans (and maybe rarely "Platonist" some Christian characters) would be brilliant.
Ohh, I see, I thought that Nicene and Chalcedonian were interchangeable. Also, Valentinianism already exists ingame. Also, the Kartivellian church at this time was experiencing some trouble with the Patriarchs of Armenia and Antioch.
 

mike the knight

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Ehat do you think about my suggestions on Sicily ? :) I agree about Irekand after a bit of search I made ;) You did not answer me which is the religion Western county of Sicily
 

Enlil

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Ehat do you think about my suggestions on Sicily ? :) I agree about Irekand after a bit of search I made ;) You did not answer me which is the religion Western county of Sicily
The westernmost religion is Arian vandalic, go gamewise Vandal culture can spread into Sicily if they take more of it. An I say your suggestions on Sicily are good.
 
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