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VIP - Middle East, Caucasia, Persia, and Central Asia

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On an unrelated note, there should be 1000 Armenians living in Jerusalem. I don't know what this translates to pop-wise but this figure remained constant until the events of WWI when this population doubled due to the influx of refugees. They should be clergy.

I also wouldn't really describe that region as mountainous...having been there earlier this month. It's pretty hilly but not particularly elevated (I think) compared to other regions. Dunno if modders really have control over that though?
 
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John Tzimisces said:
On an unrelated note, there should be 1000 Armenians living in Jerusalem. I don't know what this translates to pop-wise but this figure remained constant until the events of WWI when this population doubled due to the influx of refugees. They should be clergy.

I also wouldn't really describe that region as mountainous...having been there earlier this month. It's pretty hilly but not particularly elevated (I think) compared to other regions. Dunno if modders really have control over that though?
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if the raw number of POPs is <4000, then we would have to add them via event, as the minimum size of POP you can add to the POP files is a size 1, which represents 1000 POPs or 4000 actual humans.

this is something that for a lot of minority POPs is an issue, because they do not hit that minimum threshold for the POP files. it is possible to add them via event using the addpop command, but there is a risk that because the POP is so small (250 POP) that it will assimilate.
 
Actually that's an issue I've seen happening, IE the Ottomans assimilating pops in the area of Palestine. One of these days I'll take a look and check if its the christian or muslim pops that are being assimilated...

Either way at least I tried getting them added :p
catholic clergy should probably also be represented but I don't know what figures you guys are using for population...
 
Zionism and Jewish Migration

Has anyone thought about doing events for Jewish migration to Palestine, with the idea of having Israel "available" either after the first aliyah (1880s) or the Balfour Declaration (1917)? I would be interested in helping write events, but I do not know how one would make European Jewish pops move to Palestine. Is that even possible?

Also, if I were to do this, it would be for the Clio mod - the provinces there are much more suitable.
 
keep in mind that as late as 1914, Jews were still less than 10% of the total population of what would become British Mandated Palestine, and it would not be until the mass migrations begin after 1945 that Jews in mandate Palestine would become a (bare) majority. This is why the idea of creating a separate Jewish state was not accepted even by Zionist leaders as an immediate goal, the demography was simply not there, and instead the focus was on creation of a homeland under the protection of a larger power (first the Ottomans, later the British). It's only after the Shoah that the idea of a fully independent Jewish state in mandate Palestine is seen as not some long term goal, but an idea that must be achieved to ensure the survival of the Jewish community globally.
 
sanmartin said:
But then could that not be represented in the way French protection over Lebanese christians is, with a single province satellite?
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French don't get a satellite over Lebanon, Turkey does.

and the administrations in the territories didn't work the same way - Lebanon was granted internal self-government under its own Maronite officials. Palestine remained under direct Ottoman administration, with little input from the new Jewish settlers in terms of administrative policy in the province.

Keep in mind that at the time, Maronites were a majority of the population in the Lebanon given internal self-government in 1860 (which itself is not the same as the whole territory of modern Lebanon today), while all Jews were less than 10% of the population of Palestine in 1914, after the first two waves of Zionist settlers came in.
 
OHgamer said:
French don't get a satellite over Lebanon, Turkey does.

and the administrations in the territories didn't work the same way - Lebanon was granted internal self-government under its own Maronite officials. Palestine remained under direct Ottoman administration, with little input from the new Jewish settlers in terms of administrative policy in the province.

Keep in mind that at the time, Maronites were a majority of the population in the Lebanon given internal self-government in 1860 (which itself is not the same as the whole territory of modern Lebanon today), while all Jews were less than 10% of the population of Palestine in 1914, after the first two waves of Zionist settlers came in.
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so is there a event for the turks to reannex lebanon?
 
T'ung Dynasty said:
so is there a event for the turks to reannex lebanon?
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There eventually will be, once we get to that part of the chrnology. The Ottomans abolished Lebanon's self-government at the start of WWI. We haven't done the WWI era events yet though, so for now the satellite remains until the end of the game.

We're working towards it, but for right now the main geopolitical events for most nations run out in the 1890s.
 
OHgamer said:
There eventually will be, once we get to that part of the chrnology. The Ottomans abolished Lebanon's self-government at the start of WWI. We haven't done the WWI era events yet though, so for now the satellite remains until the end of the game.

We're working towards it, but for right now the main geopolitical events for most nations run out in the 1890s.
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Oh, anyway, great job for the events here and there at VIP, I enjoy it.:):):rolleyes:
 
Some changes for the Caucasus?

Just a few ideas here, not sure if they've been brought up by anyone else.

The Chechens don't really seem to be accurately modeled in VIP. Their population levels are a bit low, with only 67,000 people in Grozny province in 1836. According to The Chechens by Amjad M. Jaimoukha, their population was supposedly close to a million(thought this number seems too high) in the 1840s, and eventually dropped to 140,000 by 1861. It doesn't seem like the fighting in the North Caucasus is intense enough in VIP to match this drop, even if it has to be simplified because of the limits of the game engine. Maybe instead of having just POPs with high militancy to model the war, the Caucasian Imamate should exist as a playable country that is constantly targeted by the Russian AI to represent their territory slowly being chipped away over 20 or so years. I'm not really sure if this could work, though.

The POP in Grozny that would represent Chechens is also labeled as Circassian, and that doesn't seem like the right way to label them, Circassian is a broad term for speakers of Northwest Caucasian languages, while Chechens speak a Nakh language which isn't really related to the other family. I would propose making a new ethnicity called Vainakh, so that the three major language families that share cultural similarities could be grouped together, Circassians for the Northwest Caucasus, Vainakh to represent Chechens, Ingush, and Nakh language speakers in Daghestan, and Daghestani to represent Daghestani languages.

The Ossetians are also portrayed as being Sunni, when there's never been a huge proportion of Muslim Ossetians. Certainly by 1836, most Ossetians would have been Orthodox, though there would be a Sunni minority, and I'm unsure of what percent they would have been.
 
jebmagruder said:
Just a few ideas here, not sure if they've been brought up by anyone else.

The Chechens don't really seem to be accurately modeled in VIP. Their population levels are a bit low, with only 67,000 people in Grozny province in 1836. According to The Chechens by Amjad M. Jaimoukha, their population was supposedly close to a million(thought this number seems too high) in the 1840s, and eventually dropped to 140,000 by 1861. It doesn't seem like the fighting in the North Caucasus is intense enough in VIP to match this drop, even if it has to be simplified because of the limits of the game engine. Maybe instead of having just POPs with high militancy to model the war, the Caucasian Imamate should exist as a playable country that is constantly targeted by the Russian AI to represent their territory slowly being chipped away over 20 or so years. I'm not really sure if this could work, though.
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It would be good to simulate the Caucasian/Circassian wars like this, though Georgia in the vanilla proved how quickly Russia would overrun that land. I'd say it would be possible, though a bit of a challenge to get it right. We also don't have many tags left now.
jebmagruder said:
The POP in Grozny that would represent Chechens is also labeled as Circassian, and that doesn't seem like the right way to label them, Circassian is a broad term for speakers of Northwest Caucasian languages, while Chechens speak a Nakh language which isn't really related to the other family. I would propose making a new ethnicity called Vainakh, so that the three major language families that share cultural similarities could be grouped together, Circassians for the Northwest Caucasus, Vainakh to represent Chechens, Ingush, and Nakh language speakers in Daghestan, and Daghestani to represent Daghestani languages.
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Seems reasonable. I'm no expert on Caucasian cultures so I'll let someone else weigh in on this.
jebmagruder said:
The Ossetians are also portrayed as being Sunni, when there's never been a huge proportion of Muslim Ossetians. Certainly by 1836, most Ossetians would have been Orthodox, though there would be a Sunni minority, and I'm unsure of what percent they would have been.
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This would be worth looking into.

Nice ideas! :)
 
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