This link is broken. The CORE2/VIP forums have moved to www.terranova.dk . Event list is at http://www.terranova.dk/viewtopic.php?t=356 .OHgamer said:
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For VIPs 5 I think that Syria should include all geographical Palestine... which after all was consider part of Greater Syria...
Iraq and (Saudi?) Arabia
I've been looking through revolt.txt to see if it's possible to create satellite Iraq and/or Arabia (rather than separate Abu Dhabi, Nejd, Hejaz, etc...).
Weren't Iraq and Saudi created in the 1930's in real life by Brittan? Of course, I'm Persia (1906, VIP:R 0.1 + hotfix #2) so releasing a couple of large Sunni nations as neighbors, even as satellites, may not be such a great idea. Still, I'm curious... Anybody have any information on this?
I've been looking through revolt.txt to see if it's possible to create satellite Iraq and/or Arabia (rather than separate Abu Dhabi, Nejd, Hejaz, etc...).
Weren't Iraq and Saudi created in the 1930's in real life by Brittan? Of course, I'm Persia (1906, VIP:R 0.1 + hotfix #2) so releasing a couple of large Sunni nations as neighbors, even as satellites, may not be such a great idea. Still, I'm curious... Anybody have any information on this?
Well, I finally found Iraq
...so, I just need to wait until 1914 is all. I still can't believe that there's no Arabia (Greater Arabia, Saudi Arabia, whatever), though?
I thought that it was a British protectorate...
Code:
U25 = { #Iraq
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1914 }
expirydate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1935 }
minimum = { 1382 1383 1413 1414 1391 1392 1393 1394 1395 1396 1457 1390 }
extra = { }
capital = 1392
culture = {
type = arabic
}
religion = sunni
literacy = 0.10
ai = "VIP_U25.ai"
primitive = no
revolt = yes
vassal = yes
slaves = no
}I thought that it was a British protectorate...
Nejd became saudi arabia via name change in the early 1930s. Before that it was an expanded kingdom of Nejd (which had conquered Hejaz in 1924). So Saudi Arabia = Nejd
Iraq as a discrete political unit is a creation of the league of nations, which gave Britain mandate authority over Mesopotamia in wake of the Ottoman defeat in 1918. Britain imposed a monarch (from the Hashimi family of the Hejaz, not a local family) and "guided" his government until 1932 when by negotiation Iraq became independent - with a few strings allowing the British access to military bases and continued influence in the rapidly growing oil industry.
The addition of Iraq is due to Revolutions - it can be created via event in base Revolutions in 1932. Hence why it is there (in fact, all the tags U20-U33 are for nations created via event in Revolutions).
Iraq as a discrete political unit is a creation of the league of nations, which gave Britain mandate authority over Mesopotamia in wake of the Ottoman defeat in 1918. Britain imposed a monarch (from the Hashimi family of the Hejaz, not a local family) and "guided" his government until 1932 when by negotiation Iraq became independent - with a few strings allowing the British access to military bases and continued influence in the rapidly growing oil industry.
The addition of Iraq is due to Revolutions - it can be created via event in base Revolutions in 1932. Hence why it is there (in fact, all the tags U20-U33 are for nations created via event in Revolutions).
Bardo treaty
Is there any way, to prevent France from puppeting Tunisia and taking 3 of it's provinces, once they get the Bardo treaty event? Playing Italy I decided to declare war on them, when I got the event, but even though I conquered French North-African colonies and half of France, Tunisia stayed their puppet and I obviously couldn't declare war on them, since I was already in war with France. Eventually I signed a peace treaty with France, taking 3 Tunisian provinces they owned and war indemnities, but I feel there should be an event that pushes France out of Tunisia, if Italy defeats them in this war.
Is there any way, to prevent France from puppeting Tunisia and taking 3 of it's provinces, once they get the Bardo treaty event? Playing Italy I decided to declare war on them, when I got the event, but even though I conquered French North-African colonies and half of France, Tunisia stayed their puppet and I obviously couldn't declare war on them, since I was already in war with France. Eventually I signed a peace treaty with France, taking 3 Tunisian provinces they owned and war indemnities, but I feel there should be an event that pushes France out of Tunisia, if Italy defeats them in this war.
Bumbar said:
would have to make a separate event for that if ITA defeats FRA in a war over FRA seizing TUN.
EDIT: Actually, nevermind. I've read through the thread a bit and I see you will not be including events of this nature, but I will keep the text there if you are interested or feel it does not fall under that category.
As the Russians were expanding into the Persian and Ottoman controlled Caucasus, they were proclaiming themselves the protectors of Christendom in these places, and proceeded to call for, just an example, Armenians dispersed in the Persian and Ottoman empires to come to their territories in the Caucasus. This is evidenced by the fact that what is the state of Armenia (Yerevan, Kapan, Nakhichevan, and Gyumri) was 20% Christian at the start of the 19th century, and by the end were by and large the majority. Judging from this, and the Russian practice of expelling Muslims (or at least favoring the Christians) in these conquered lands, Christians were becoming the majority in regions were they were not for years (thanks to the russians). It seems clear that were the Russians going to expand into Armenia proper (aka, the country you can release as Armenia), they were going to do the same (and indeed, this more or less happened in WWI, Ottomans were cleansing out the Christians, and Russians in turn had no problem doing the same to the Muslims...). I feel more or less they wanted to create a satellite state out of the conquered territory in eastern anatolia.
Are there any events on the table to simulate this?
In addition, Esfahan, the province, not the state it is in, should certainly have Armenian (christian) and Georgian (muslim) pops. Censi for the Qajar period are notably absent (or really hard to find...) but I'm looking for a figure. I can only say that in the 1600s, there were 150,000 Armenians in New Julfa (Esfahan), but another article notes that the population of the region by the 19th century was considerably lower than in the safavid period.
As the Russians were expanding into the Persian and Ottoman controlled Caucasus, they were proclaiming themselves the protectors of Christendom in these places, and proceeded to call for, just an example, Armenians dispersed in the Persian and Ottoman empires to come to their territories in the Caucasus. This is evidenced by the fact that what is the state of Armenia (Yerevan, Kapan, Nakhichevan, and Gyumri) was 20% Christian at the start of the 19th century, and by the end were by and large the majority. Judging from this, and the Russian practice of expelling Muslims (or at least favoring the Christians) in these conquered lands, Christians were becoming the majority in regions were they were not for years (thanks to the russians). It seems clear that were the Russians going to expand into Armenia proper (aka, the country you can release as Armenia), they were going to do the same (and indeed, this more or less happened in WWI, Ottomans were cleansing out the Christians, and Russians in turn had no problem doing the same to the Muslims...). I feel more or less they wanted to create a satellite state out of the conquered territory in eastern anatolia.
Are there any events on the table to simulate this?
In addition, Esfahan, the province, not the state it is in, should certainly have Armenian (christian) and Georgian (muslim) pops. Censi for the Qajar period are notably absent (or really hard to find...) but I'm looking for a figure. I can only say that in the 1600s, there were 150,000 Armenians in New Julfa (Esfahan), but another article notes that the population of the region by the 19th century was considerably lower than in the safavid period.
Last edited:
Georgia -- events missing?
so in the 1836 setup, there is a 1 province Georgia next to Russia, but looking through events I don't believe that there are any events leading to the annexation of this Georgia. for that matter, I can't find any information on the internet about Georgia actually existing then. could someone point me towards both things, the location of the annexation / end of Georgia event, or historical information as to why this exists at all? Thanks.
so in the 1836 setup, there is a 1 province Georgia next to Russia, but looking through events I don't believe that there are any events leading to the annexation of this Georgia. for that matter, I can't find any information on the internet about Georgia actually existing then. could someone point me towards both things, the location of the annexation / end of Georgia event, or historical information as to why this exists at all? Thanks.
Teddysdad said:
I too wonder about this and I brought it up a long time ago but I don't recall anyone answering me. According to Wikipedia (the most reliable of all sources :rofl: ) Georgia was annexed by Russia in 1801.
and thenWikipedia said:
So it really should all be Russian land, unless someone says otherwise.Wikipedia said:
And not only, there there were also other kingdoms...leggbros said:
If to be exact the Western Georgia was a part of Russia since 1803-1804...... (The statement of Russia in Transcaucasia has led to its war with Iran 1804-1810)
Example: kingdom of Imereti, was a part of Russia in 1804, as the kingdom has been liquidated in 1810, and the authority above its territory has passed directly to Russia.
PS: And East Georgia in 1801
Should not exist at start of game, just nothing's been done about it - only so many hours and not enough time to catch everything.
Will add to the list of things to correct for VIP:R 0.2
Will add to the list of things to correct for VIP:R 0.2
OHgamer said:
About yes, you are right. By our historical period this information has no what attitude, but for the general development the new information will not superfluous.
PS:
I had I shall enter, that territories joined and in 1803 and 1804, not with 1803 up to 1804....Jusi said:
o
OHgamer said:
I feel that, during WW1, Britain should get an event called "The Arab Question" asking whether to make a united Arab state. If they answer yes, they give Iraq, Syria, and Palestine to Saudi Arabia, who then becomes one of the Allies. If they say no, go with usual dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, with (I guess) changing some of the POPs around to other ethnicities. Saudi Arabia would have all the Middle Eastern groups as accepted.
That was based entirely on fact. During the end of WW1, there was both the question of whether to have a unified Arab state and the question of Israel.
Merrick Chance' said:
I think the plan was to create a dominion out of the arab states.
The only problem with the Arab Question was, the Brits and the Arabs saw the situation very differently. The British saw any creation of a pan-Arab state as an opportunity for the expansion of their sphere of influence over the region. The Arabs, however, wanted full and complete independence from ANY foreign influence, rather than any sort of subservient status like the one they had just thrown out. In addition, if the British tried creating such a sattelite state as Merrick suggests, not only would there have been opposition to British influence, but also very strong regional opposition to Saudi rule. The state would have almost immediately torn itself apart, or at least suffered massive revolts.
Heya guys.
I still have a vested interest in adding Christian pops to Persia and further developing the crossroads of Russia, the Ottomans, and Iran as far as pops go.
First off, the kurds in Yerevan province should be split between muslim and pagan pops. The kurds in neighboring Kars should also have a small minority of pagans as well. The Yezidi Kurds have and still do live in this area of the world, whereas the muslim kurds fled during the war in the 1990s. I feel like I've read kurds also lived in Karabagh aka agdam province (if I'm remembering the map right).
Second, Russia's position as defender of Ottoman Christians created complications in the Caucasus as advances were made there, as well as unrest in the balkans. The balkan unrest is covered quite nicely (though sadly Bulgaria being allied with Austria kinda messed up the 1911 Balkan war in regards to Serbia and Greece fighting with bulgaria in my most recent game as Russia.) but the caucasus is a little lacking asides from the generic events raising militancy of Armenians in the ottoman empire via events.
Given the large number of Armenians living in Persia the Russians encouraged a ton of armenian immigration into what was originally the Erivan Khanate (based in...Erevan province). What happened was that Armenians living in this province, who were a large group, but not a majority, eventually became the vast majority of people living in this province, and this Russian practice of encouraged immigration extended to Kars when it fell into Russian hands (though not to the extent in neighboring Erevan).
Might I suggest the following: The addition of (***Coptic***, all armenian pops should be coptic with the exception of some Muslims on the black sea coast.) Armenian pops to Esfahan, Tabriz, and Teheran, and events adding to the Armenian population in Armenia state, and taking away from the armenian population in Teheran, Esfahan, and Tabriz (akin the African American immigration to Liberia events).
Muslim georgians also existed in decent numbers in Persia, but I believe these were concentrated around Esfahan.
The VIP team has been very thorough in the detailing of populations elsewhere, but my heart sinks a bit to play Persia and see it nearly entirely Shi'ite and Sunni with a Jewish minority.
I am a bit worried the only sources I can find for population in Persia may be in post-Qajar Iran, but I am fairly sure the only major demographic shift that occurred there involving emmigration of minorities would be the Islamic revolution, as certain minorities were smiled upon in Pahlavi Iran.
I still have a vested interest in adding Christian pops to Persia and further developing the crossroads of Russia, the Ottomans, and Iran as far as pops go.
First off, the kurds in Yerevan province should be split between muslim and pagan pops. The kurds in neighboring Kars should also have a small minority of pagans as well. The Yezidi Kurds have and still do live in this area of the world, whereas the muslim kurds fled during the war in the 1990s. I feel like I've read kurds also lived in Karabagh aka agdam province (if I'm remembering the map right).
Second, Russia's position as defender of Ottoman Christians created complications in the Caucasus as advances were made there, as well as unrest in the balkans. The balkan unrest is covered quite nicely (though sadly Bulgaria being allied with Austria kinda messed up the 1911 Balkan war in regards to Serbia and Greece fighting with bulgaria in my most recent game as Russia.) but the caucasus is a little lacking asides from the generic events raising militancy of Armenians in the ottoman empire via events.
Given the large number of Armenians living in Persia the Russians encouraged a ton of armenian immigration into what was originally the Erivan Khanate (based in...Erevan province). What happened was that Armenians living in this province, who were a large group, but not a majority, eventually became the vast majority of people living in this province, and this Russian practice of encouraged immigration extended to Kars when it fell into Russian hands (though not to the extent in neighboring Erevan).
Might I suggest the following: The addition of (***Coptic***, all armenian pops should be coptic with the exception of some Muslims on the black sea coast.) Armenian pops to Esfahan, Tabriz, and Teheran, and events adding to the Armenian population in Armenia state, and taking away from the armenian population in Teheran, Esfahan, and Tabriz (akin the African American immigration to Liberia events).
Muslim georgians also existed in decent numbers in Persia, but I believe these were concentrated around Esfahan.
The VIP team has been very thorough in the detailing of populations elsewhere, but my heart sinks a bit to play Persia and see it nearly entirely Shi'ite and Sunni with a Jewish minority.
I am a bit worried the only sources I can find for population in Persia may be in post-Qajar Iran, but I am fairly sure the only major demographic shift that occurred there involving emmigration of minorities would be the Islamic revolution, as certain minorities were smiled upon in Pahlavi Iran.
we have a Coptic Religion tag already in use for the Copts in Egypt and Abyssinia. Are the Armenians the same branch of Christian, or are they separate from that branch (I know there are several branches of Armenian and Georgian Christian churches, but the relations to them I'm not as sure on.)
Overall PER def could use an overhaul, only thing that to this point has been done was to adjust its historical population to realistic levels (approx 6M in 1836, compared to today Persia was very underpopulated in part due to the cycle of violence in the 18th C.) Another limitation is the very sparse demographic data for Persia, compared to either Russia or the Ottomans, which makes it difficult to have much more than "guestimates" regarding breakdowns of ethnic populations, and to this point we've simply stayed with the Victoria breakdowns for the most part. Persia is definitely in need of someone who's got some good research to work on - either published academic research or analyses of Persian census/regional tax collection figures - which might give us a better picture of the diversity of Persian society in the mid-19th C.
Overall PER def could use an overhaul, only thing that to this point has been done was to adjust its historical population to realistic levels (approx 6M in 1836, compared to today Persia was very underpopulated in part due to the cycle of violence in the 18th C.) Another limitation is the very sparse demographic data for Persia, compared to either Russia or the Ottomans, which makes it difficult to have much more than "guestimates" regarding breakdowns of ethnic populations, and to this point we've simply stayed with the Victoria breakdowns for the most part. Persia is definitely in need of someone who's got some good research to work on - either published academic research or analyses of Persian census/regional tax collection figures - which might give us a better picture of the diversity of Persian society in the mid-19th C.
I was aware there was a coptic religion tag in use in VIP.
The vast majority of Armenians (upwards of 95% of those that adhere to any religion I'd imagine) are Oriental Orthodox, the same denomination as the Copts and Ethiopians. So yes, we are in the same branch. The georgians are however rightfully tagged as Orthodox, being independent but still in communion with the eastern orthodox churches.
The smallest group of armenian christians indeed would probably be those that are actually in communion with the greeks and russians (and would be deserving of the tag "Orthodox". They're called Hayhurums, apparently, and I've never met a greek or armenian (they live primarily in Greece nowadays, but lived in central turkey prior to that) who has met one.
After that, the next largest groups would be Catholics and Protestants.
The seat of the Armenian catholic patriarchate is in Beirut, but a monastary existed and still does in Venice (St. Lazarus to my knowledge, Lord Byron became very interested in eastern christians there if I'm remembering right).
The armenian protestants are the second largest group, therefore, but I know nothing about their geographic distribution and they probably don't warrant adding pops?
As I posted before Armenians on the south eastern black sea coast should be at least partially muslim. They're called Hamshenis and still live in Turkey. Hamshenis (it refers to the dialect they speak, not the religion) lived in the USSR as well but many were deported to central asia. Since they lived on georgia's black sea coast, were primarily christan, and georgia already has armenian pops I think you're covered there.
Now since I've been interested in fleshing out Persia I have been looking around for anything pertaining to census information but I've had very little luck. The only number I've ever found is 150,000 Armenians settling in Esfahan in the 1600s, peaking at perhaps 250,000-400,000 before the Islamic Revolution, and dropping to 150,000-300,000 afterwards. As such a long standing and substantial minority in terms of religion and ethnicity they have two seats in the majlis (minority seats are based on minority population by religion, they outnumber the Assyrian/Chaldean Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians even now)
The vast majority of Armenians (upwards of 95% of those that adhere to any religion I'd imagine) are Oriental Orthodox, the same denomination as the Copts and Ethiopians. So yes, we are in the same branch. The georgians are however rightfully tagged as Orthodox, being independent but still in communion with the eastern orthodox churches.
The smallest group of armenian christians indeed would probably be those that are actually in communion with the greeks and russians (and would be deserving of the tag "Orthodox". They're called Hayhurums, apparently, and I've never met a greek or armenian (they live primarily in Greece nowadays, but lived in central turkey prior to that) who has met one.
After that, the next largest groups would be Catholics and Protestants.
The seat of the Armenian catholic patriarchate is in Beirut, but a monastary existed and still does in Venice (St. Lazarus to my knowledge, Lord Byron became very interested in eastern christians there if I'm remembering right).
The armenian protestants are the second largest group, therefore, but I know nothing about their geographic distribution and they probably don't warrant adding pops?
As I posted before Armenians on the south eastern black sea coast should be at least partially muslim. They're called Hamshenis and still live in Turkey. Hamshenis (it refers to the dialect they speak, not the religion) lived in the USSR as well but many were deported to central asia. Since they lived on georgia's black sea coast, were primarily christan, and georgia already has armenian pops I think you're covered there.
Now since I've been interested in fleshing out Persia I have been looking around for anything pertaining to census information but I've had very little luck. The only number I've ever found is 150,000 Armenians settling in Esfahan in the 1600s, peaking at perhaps 250,000-400,000 before the Islamic Revolution, and dropping to 150,000-300,000 afterwards. As such a long standing and substantial minority in terms of religion and ethnicity they have two seats in the majlis (minority seats are based on minority population by religion, they outnumber the Assyrian/Chaldean Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians even now)