VIP - Middle East, Caucasia, Persia, and Central Asia

[Tunch Khan]

V.I.P. Middle East, Caucasia and Central Asia

With the modern definition of Mid East that includes the geography from Morocco to Sudan, Cyprus to Afghanistan i'm sure there's a lot of space for events and modding. I personally could help with anything regarding to OE and its vassals like Tunis and Egypt. However, the Victorian period vitnessed a lot of high politics on the "Big Game" that involves Persia, Afghanistan and Central Asia that would double the fun of the game and give both Russia and Britain a lot of issues to keep them busy for an entire century. OE was only a side player in this game and my knowledge is limited to those of OE and Turcic Sultanates of Central Asia related events. So i guess we need more people on this area.

 

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I'd think it might be a good idea to chop this up some, at least making North Africa it's own unit.

I'm not an expert on this, though, so I don't know what the event load would be.

 

[Jayavarman]

I will tackle Egypt. There was much brooding within Egypt as conservative and liberal forces fought over the modernization of Egypt along with the intervention of Great Powers. Egypt could be an exciting minor to play, especially under Muhammed Ali.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Originally posted by Napoleon_VI
I'd think it might be a good idea to chop this up some, at least making North Africa it's own unit.

I'm not an expert on this, though, so I don't know what the event load would be.

I guess it would make things complicated for OE since except for Morocco, they controlled the whole North Africa and got involved in conflicts with France, Britain, Italy and Egypt. Coloniztion of the rest of Africa is a complete different story though. And i think it should be handled in a seperate thread.

 

[Tunch Khan]

I've checked once more the country name tag but i could not find Azerbaijan, although there is Georgia and Armenia and while Azerbaijan declared herself independent before Armenia.

I think creating a revolter tag for Masavat Republic of Azerbaijan (or the Khanate of Nahchevan) is going to be my first suggestion. Any comments?

 

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Persia

Count me in for Persia, but if you know something about Persia feel free to chime in as I know a fair amount but am still learning.

What an awful sentence that is. sigh.

I would like to put in some kind of interference from Russia events for Persia. Maybe some 'profligate Shah spends half the royal treasury' events.

And you know I have to put in something about the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam!

I Probably won't start these until I get the game. I will just work on my resources thread.

Mike

 

[Tunch Khan]

Re: Persia

Originally posted by Lycortas2
Count me in for Persia, but if you know something about Persia feel free to chime in as I know a fair amount but am still learning.

What an awful sentence that is. sigh.

I would like to put in some kind of interference from Russia events for Persia. Maybe some 'profligate Shah spends half the royal treasury' events.

And you know I have to put in something about the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam!

I Probably won't start these until I get the game. I will just work on my resources thread.

Mike

That's wonderful, but how are you going to incorporate Rubaiat with 19th Century?

 

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Rubaiyat

Tunch,

Have you ever read Amin Maalouf's book
Samarkand ?

It deals with the history of the Rubaiyat through the years and ends with a fictional find by an American who takes it from Persia back to America... by way of the Titanic !!!
oops.

Very interesting book.

Mike

 

[Tunch Khan]

Re: Rubaiyat

Originally posted by Lycortas2
Tunch,

Have you ever read Amin Maalouf's book
Samarkand ?

It deals with the history of the Rubaiyat through the years and ends with a fictional find by an American who takes it from Persia back to America... by way of the Titanic !!!
oops.

Very interesting book.

Mike

Samarkand is definately on my list. I've read most of his books and i'm a great fan of Maalouf.

 

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Sorry

I think i just gave away the ending... damn!

Um, no, I was lying! What i said never happens in the book! yeah...

I don't know if i am going to update my resources thread until the game comes out. It is way to difficult looking through screenshots to find the province locations.

Plus i am doing a bunch of research on Corn, Flax, Cotton and Fruit production in the Western hemisphere. Plus trying to find a good book that talks about the building of railroads in countries other than USA, UK, and Russia after 1895.

I own way to many books on the politics of the period and not enough on the economics and development of the period.
I am working on my Doctorate in Foreign relations after all!

Michael

 

[Tunch Khan]

Re: Sorry

Originally posted by Lycortas2
I think i just gave away the ending... damn!

Um, no, I was lying! What i said never happens in the book! yeah...

I don't know if i am going to update my resources thread until the game comes out. It is way to difficult looking through screenshots to find the province locations.

Plus i am doing a bunch of research on Corn, Flax, Cotton and Fruit production in the Western hemisphere. Plus trying to find a good book that talks about the building of railroads in countries other than USA, UK, and Russia after 1895.

I own way to many books on the politics of the period and not enough on the economics and development of the period.
I am working on my Doctorate in Foreign relations after all!

Michael

Don't blame yourself, i've heard the end of the novel from another source long ago. i'm working on my MA on international afairs as well.. and my concentration is Middle East. This should be fun..

 

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Ottomans

MY thoughts on the Ottomans events...

My feeling is that the game system will do an okay job of disenfranchising the non-Turk pops. I really like the screenshots with 'citizenship' options! You know that will help this game show the differences between a Nation-State like France and an Empire like Austria.

I think the game may need some help showing how independent the Beys were however. Also wasn't the Tanzimat and the slaughter of the Yeni-Cheri just after this game starts? I will have to look that up. That may already be in the game.

What are your thoughts about what should be added?

Mike

 

[OHgamer]

Re: Ottomans

Originally posted by Lycortas2
MY thoughts on the Ottomans events...

My feeling is that the game system will do an okay job of disenfranchising the non-Turk pops. I really like the screenshots with 'citizenship' options! You know that will help this game show the differences between a Nation-State like France and an Empire like Austria.

I think the game may need some help showing how independent the Beys were however. Also wasn't the Tanzimat and the slaughter of the Yeni-Cheri just after this game starts? I will have to look that up. That may already be in the game.

What are your thoughts about what should be added?

Mike

Tanzimat yes, launched in 1839 with the accession of Abdulmecit, dissolution of the Yenicheri no, that was 1826 during the reign of II. Mahmud. As for the beys, II. Mahmud had pretty well brought the ones in Anatolia and Rumelia to heel by the early 1830s, though the strongest of them all, Muhammad Ali in Egypt, was a bit of a pain to say the least.

Shouldn't this discussion be in the VIP - Ottoman section? I thought this section was going to be for Persia-Caucasus-Central Asia and non-Ottoman regions like central Arabia. Mediterranean-East Africa for the Maghrib, Egypt, Sudan, Horn Of Africa and Kenya-Tanzania, and then the Ottomans for Ottoman events in Balkans, Anatolia and the Arab Lands under their control.

 

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oops

my faul....hadn't realized there was an Ottoman thread.

mike

 

[Tunch Khan]

I guess we should pay a special attention to Ottoman-Egyptian relations here. Once the war was over, according to peace treaty, Egypt gave Syria, Hedjaz and Crete back to OE and agreed to become Kedivate (Misr Hidivligi, viceroyalty) and that would needless to say make Egypt an ally and satellite state.

I guess we should work on a peace agreement event that will provide this status quo.

Tunis was ruled by a governing Dayi (dey, equivalent of Bey in Ottoman North African possessions, except for Egypt) who is under the sovereignity of OE. Therefore it should be implemented as a satellite state and ally with substantial army and navy like Egypt.

OE should have both Tunisian and Egyptian independences guaranteed.

I have no idea what Tripoli is, but those regions were under direct OE rule.

 

[OHgamer]

Originally posted by Tunch Khan
I guess we should pay a special attention to Ottoman-Egyptian relations here. Once the war was over, according to peace treaty, Egypt gave Syria, Hedjaz and Crete back to OE and agreed to become Kedivate (Misr Hidivligi, viceroyalty) and that would needless to say make Egypt an ally and satellite state.

I guess we should work on a peace agreement event that will provide this status quo.

Tunis was ruled by a governing Dayi (dey, equivalent of Bey in Ottoman North African possessions, except for Egypt) who is under the sovereignity of OE. Therefore it should be implemented as a satellite state and ally with substantial army and navy like Egypt.

OE should have both Tunisian and Egyptian independences guaranteed.

I have no idea what Tripoli is, but those regions were under direct OE rule.

On Egypt it technically should be a vassal right from day one - and have the vassal rebel in 1838 (event could be the attempt by Muhammad Ali to make his heirs hereditary rulers which, at that point, Mahmud II was not ready to concede) creating the war that leads to Euro intervention and Muhammad Ali's wings getting trimmed. Then of course we have the whole Ahmad 'Urabi episode in 1881, but better to focus on the early events now I think

Tunis also should be vassal from day one and ally. Lets worry about 1888 French intervention later.

With Tripoli we are lucky, in 1835 the Ottomans took out the independent-minded rule of the Karamanli family and restored direct Ottoman rule over the province. In Cyrenaica we'll need to do some modding to reflect the rise of the Sanusiyya order in the 2nd half of the 19th Century.

For good refernce on North Africa chcek J. Abun-Nasr's history of the Maghrib in the Islamic era. He can be quite a dense read, but there's enough event creating material for Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya to keep even the keenest modder busy.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Originally posted by OHgamer
On Egypt it technically should be a vassal right from day one - and have the vassal rebel in 1838 (event could be the attempt by Muhammad Ali to make his heirs hereditary rulers which, at that point, Mahmud II was not ready to concede) creating the war that leads to Euro intervention and Muhammad Ali's wings getting trimmed. Then of course we have the whole Ahmad 'Urabi episode in 1881, but better to focus on the early events now I think

Tunis also should be vassal from day one and ally. Lets worry about 1888 French intervention later.

With Tripoli we are lucky, in 1835 the Ottomans took out the independent-minded rule of the Karamanli family and restored direct Ottoman rule over the province. In Cyrenaica we'll need to do some modding to reflect the rise of the Sanusiyya order in the 2nd half of the 19th Century.

For good refernce on North Africa chcek J. Abun-Nasr's history of the Maghrib in the Islamic era. He can be quite a dense read, but there's enough event creating material for Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya to keep even the keenest modder busy.

You sound like my professor on Middle East class...gee you sure have picked the right profession...

 

[C.N.]

Originally posted by OHgamer

With Tripoli we are lucky, in 1835 the Ottomans took out the independent-minded rule of the Karamanli family and restored direct Ottoman rule over the province. In Cyrenaica we'll need to do some modding to reflect the rise of the Sanusiyya order in the 2nd half of the 19th Century.

Did the Karamanli flee out into the desert?
I'm asking since the Tripoli nation in the GC controls the desert parts of Libya.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Originally posted by C.N.
Did the Karamanli flee out into the desert?
I'm asking since the Tripoli nation in the GC controls the desert parts of Libya.

I don't have any information on an authonomous desert bey. I corss-checked with several references but never heard of such a Tripoli nation. There weren't even any revolts in the desert. It should be very sparcely populated desert area with nomadic bedouins. But i know of an Ottoman penal colony in the desert, today in Algeria, then in Libya, called "Fizan". That was the favorite place for Abdulhamid to send CUP members en masse before 1908.

 

[OHgamer]

Originally posted by C.N.
Did the Karamanli flee out into the desert?
I'm asking since the Tripoli nation in the GC controls the desert parts of Libya.

No the last of the Karamanli deys was arrested by the Ottomans and sent back to Istanbul. What Tripoli is meant to represent in this game I have no clear idea - the Ottomans generally were able to get the Bedouin in the Fezzan and Cyrenaica to recognize their authority. Will see if I can dig up anything that might make sense.